Oh great...another 'what speaker' thread. ;)

**JonMarsh** · 15 January 2016, 18:04 Friday

Hmm, I understand what you're saying, but what you HAVEN'T told is is what your source system is like.

If I hook up a set of NatalieP's to my current home system, I could sell them to just about anyone, I'm sure, but a large measure of that is what the DAC does and the rest of the electronics, and all of that sounds a lot like what you're missing.

That is not to say that if one redesigned the NatP's for the Scanspeak 6640's that we used in the Ardents that they wouldn't be better, or that overall the Ardents are in another class, IMO, in a major part because of the C79 and also the low distortion and dynamics of the SW223BD01/02.

But I'm just saying, the difference between what my current electronics setup does and what I was using 10-11 years ago when the NatP was designed is pretty staggering, IMO. Now, it's also a staggering difference in what you can get at more moderate price ranges, too. If I had to minimize my outlay, I'd go for a Schitt Yggdrasil DAC, and a Cambridge Audio integrated using the Class XD amps. With more budget, I'd bump that up in the amplification, say, a Cambridge Audio 851e preamp and some DIY Hypex nCore 400's in dual mono. More money, and I'd go with an AURALiC Taurus Pre preamp, and an NAD M22. I'd recommend the AURALiC Vega DAC, too, but I'm not fully convinced it's better than the Yggdrasil. It is more expensive, though. Next step would be adding re-clocking with a Mutec 1.3, and throw in a Rubidium 10MHz oscillator to stabilize that.

And if you have time on your hands, do the electronics and wait and see how the Minerva monitor turns out. It will cost less than the Ardents, depending on the build approach, and will have some use case advantages (such as near field off axis).

**AndrewM** · 15 January 2016, 19:25 Friday

Originally posted by JonMarsh

Hmm, I understand what you're saying, but what you HAVEN'T told is is what your source system is like.

It's a mix of mid-fi stuff and lower end hi-fi stuff. Some good amps (Anthem, Aragon, some boutique low-power Class A thing...sits in the closet), decent Rega TT bought used (cheaper Phono preamp on it though)....I haven't really dived into re-doing the digital side of it yet. But it's all still going through an SR7xxx series Marantz receiver (another place I'm looking to make some changes).

Originally posted by JonMarsh

If I hook up a set of NatalieP's to my current home system, I could sell them to just about anyone, I'm sure, but a large measure of that is what the DAC does and the rest of the electronics, and all of that sounds a lot like what you're missing.

No doubt I'm not getting the best out of the electronics, but I grabbed one of the Focal speakers and hooked it up to one side and there are things I'm just not getting out of the NatP's with how everything is setup today. That reads much worse than it really is, the Focal setup is not hooked up for a reason as the NatP's are a much better overall package.

I hate trying to describe sound because it just becomes impossible. But take the crash of cymbal, it sounds quite a bit different (and to me better) coming from the TLR tweeter than it does the Dayton. Same with the sound of a drumstick hitting a snare drum, just a little clearer on the focal setup, electric guitar swings both ways and on it goes. I can go the other way as well, the Focal setup is so poorly implemented that there are a lot of things it does worse than the NatP's, as mentioned they aren't hooked up for a reason (and this would have been a kit that would have cost around $2k....thank god for used...).

Originally posted by JonMarsh

That is not to say that if one redesigned the NatP's for the Scanspeak 6640's that we used in the Ardents that they wouldn't be better, or that overall the Ardents are in another class, IMO, in a major part because of the C79 and also the low distortion and dynamics of the SW223BD01/02.

This goes back to having to describe sounds, I'm just really curious how the Accutons sound since I've never heard them and don't have an easy way to hear them. The best way I can describe the TLR tweeter is that when it's running within it's parameters it's REALLY good (like comparing a supermarket choice strip steak and a grade 5+ Kobe strip), it will turn a soft-dome hardliner into a hard dome person, but you are really paying a lot for that privilege, from a value perspective they don't pencil out, despite all the stuff I'm talking about in these posts it's all remarkably subtle stuff, if I asked my wife if one was worth 15-20x more money than the other, she'd have me committed.

I'm guessing the Accutons are much the same?

Originally posted by JonMarsh

But I'm just saying, the difference between what my current electronics setup does and what I was using 10-11 years ago when the NatP was designed is pretty staggering, IMO. Now, it's also a staggering difference in what you can get at more moderate price ranges, too. If I had to minimize my outlay, I'd go for a Schitt Yggdrasil DAC, and a Cambridge Audio integrated using the Class XD amps. With more budget, I'd bump that up in the amplification, say, a Cambridge Audio 851e preamp and some DIY Hypex nCore 400's in dual mono. More money, and I'd go with an AURALiC Taurus Pre preamp, and an NAD M22. I'd recommend the AURALiC Vega DAC, too, but I'm not fully convinced it's better than the Yggdrasil. It is more expensive, though. Next step would be adding re-clocking with a Mutec 1.3, and throw in a Rubidium 10MHz oscillator to stabilize that.

I'll have to take a look at some of those items, the Hypex NC400 is on my short list already (hey I like to build things...). I am lucky that I have a local high end store that somehow manages to collect/sell lots of gear, so I pop in from time to time to see what they have, quite a lot of it dives into the esoteric stuff, but there are some buys from time to time.

Originally posted by JonMarsh

And if you have time on your hands, do the electronics and wait and see how the Minerva monitor turns out. It will cost less than the Ardents, depending on the build approach, and will have some use case advantages (such as near field off axis).

Some of it will be happening as I go and find stuff, some will wait until I decide on some speakers, it's hard to decide on an amplifier choice if you're looking at everything from 2 channels needed (most passive speakers) all the way up to 10 channels needed (Linkwitz 521's with miniDSP).

**BobEllis** · 15 January 2016, 19:47 Friday

Jon has a good point about feeding the Nat-P with good gear. I built a pair for a friend. They sounded much better with a portable CD player feeding directly into a Hafler DH-500 than through his low range Pioneer receiver. He was happy so I bit my tongue.

That said, it sounds like your room is fairly large and you might benefit from turning the Nat-Ps into a three way with some bass bins. It might be the stress of trying to reach low in a big room causing some of the apparent high end issues. I have a small MT (Seas Excel) that sounds great in a small room but in a 500+ sq. ft. room they sound a bit rough. Still working on my Ardents to solve that.

. How about adding a pair of L26ROYs and PRs under each Nat-P?

**dar47** · 16 January 2016, 00:07 Saturday

Okay, I'm going to have to be careful here as you seem to have a blank canvas with a budget, and my wife said I'm a great purchaser and need to work on saving, haha.

Jon has already given you a wise recommendation on source gear to get the best out of your P's. that you like and he is not pushing new speaks. If you can hear some Keff Blades that would give you an idea of concentric drivers and an idea of his new design. Sounds like you like dome tweeters soft or hard and haven't mentioned ribbons. From the P's there are some larger stand mounted 3ways I would consider over a MTM. If you want to hear a new $7000.00 larger stand mount 3way getting praise go hear a Harbeth 40.2 monitor. If you like that sound and could handle the price then you are now in the kick that all over the play ground range of the Ardents. Of course you have to have the funds and want it for at least 10 years or in my case my last speak. If you can find a speak with a diamond or beryllium tweet that would give you an idea of the tweet worth to you. The BE at 1/3 the cost most would say your there. The Accuton mid is very resolving and neutral some would say polite, to me it just does it all and you don't notice it. Com speaks with them are north of $10G's. Great advise with added base to your P's but if you can't spare the room or aesthetics and love sealed base in a 42" tower then the Ardents have enough for your size room. Sounds like you have already experience a great system design and you have noted Jon's crossovers are hard to beat so that goes without saying.

Many ways to attack it, improve your source gear and stay put or start with new Speaks and add the gear to keep up. I would go listen to as many new commercial speaks as you can and note the prices. The new speaks, DACs, amps and interfaces from computer that might give you an idea of what you like.

**---k---** · 16 January 2016, 09:45 Saturday

Maybe he is just ready to move up to the CatZ.

poke poke poke.

Depending on the size, budget, and output levels. Over the years, I've seen lots of simple small 2-ways with Scan drivers that I'm sure would deliver quality that he is after. Not sure about the output level and impact. I thought Jeff Bagby had a Raal design out there that might be the ticket.

**5th element** · 16 January 2016, 10:59 Saturday

It is possible that the differences you are hearing between the NatP and the focal loudspeaker are related to linear distortion. That and the chosen crossover points and resulting of axis response. Jon has designed the NatP to be neutral and without any off axis issues typically associated with six and a half inch plus one inch two ways. The focals might not be so lucky.

From a tonal balance point of view you are probably better going by how the NatP sounds and then if you want to add some spice to the sound use small amounts of EQ or tone controls. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this if it gives you the kind of sound you are after. A good preamp with tone controls can make some music that would otherwise be quite unlistenable pleasant on the ears. It is only the recent audiophile trend to completely remove tone controls well once upon a time they were included so that you could get the sound how you wanted it. All recordings are not created equal and a bit of adjustment here and there it's never a bad thing just don't go overboard with it.

**JonMarsh** · 16 January 2016, 18:02 Saturday

With the right source components (especially the DAC) then you may also benefit from some judicious component upgrades in the crossover. Were I building myself a set of NatP's today, I would use Clarity MR caps in the tweeter circuit or at least the Jantzen Superior Z. This has an impact in reducing treble "fuzz" and increasing definition.

I cannot under emphasize how important your digital source component is... I've basically been very "meh" about digital until I got my Berkeley Alpha DAC and some of the subsequent units. The Yiggy is the best bang for the buck out there; NAD M51 was my previous "low dollar" preference. And is still very good. Just not quite as good for overall natural tonality and resolution. (Though close...)

My reference DAC is a Total-DAC D1 Dual (full balanced) currently running with a Brainstrom DCD-8 re-clocking system with 10MHz rubidium oscillator, so yeah, I'm a little out there, but then I used to have a very good vinyl rig and it's only since the Berkeley that I'm really getting fairly happy with digital.

**AndrewM** · 21 January 2016, 02:11 Thursday

Everybody, thanks for the feedback. A few other details, I do already have the bass side covered with a 15" sub in a giant sealed enclosure (tuned to a Qtc around .57'ish with a little EQ to help it out).

From a source perspective, no doubt what I have is lacking, but it's also in flux right now as I'm looking to build back into a 2ch setup, and I have no idea which ways I'll go with the various pieces at the moment, I'll certainly check out all of the items mentioned. About my only real limitation is the need to integrate it into the HT side of things (well there are budget constraints as well), but it appears a number of pre-amps have HT bypass modes, certainly not ideal, but those are the cards I've been dealt.

As for the speaker side, the other reason for looking at options is simply the desire for another project along with all of the rest plus the desire to step up to that next level. I've been digging around to see what options are out there, I have been eyeing the Ardents. I've also been intrigued by the Troels SP44 setup (linky-link) as a step down from the Ardents (cost, size, probably SQ in many areas), although the cabinets need some help in terms of over-building (so they'd be a bit larger in depth once it's all done), may be a little thin output wise in my room. But any other input is always welcome, Troels stuff is generally well reviewed, but I lack the expertise to really dissect it all.

Some of Troels other designs are interesting, although many are simply too large for where they need to go, others don't really make sense from a cost/value perspective, like the Ekta speaker looks interesting, but it would cost more to build than the SP44's and Troels says the SP will outperform the Ekta. The Illumina 66 looks nice as well, but I'm worried about it being a fairly small 2 way (for my big'ish room), but on the flip side I don't really listen too loud... The Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5 looks interesting and is well reviewed, so it's on the short list as well (put it in a solid enclosure and build it up with some good x-over components). Any other designs worth checking out?

**Carl V** · 21 January 2016, 09:42 Thursday

Any other designs worth checking out?

Look into Rick Craig's site SELAH audio

Squarespace - Domain Not Claimed

http://www.selahaudio.com/

His Tempesta, Ottavo estremo TRT etc.,
would all be good candidates

have fun.

Oh great...another 'what speaker' thread. ;)

Oh great...another 'what speaker' thread. ;)

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