DIY In-Walls HELP!

[ericnhitterdal]

Hey everybody, i've been lurking here for a while and have been reading all of the great threads on DIY speaker building.

I am in the process of finishing my basement, which is a 15 wide x32 deep x8 high ft area. We will have an acoustically transparent screen on one of the 15 foot walls (either a seymour or maybe carls place woven screen).

For speakers I was going to go with the Definitive Technology UIW RLS II, RSS II Side surrounds and RCS Rear Surrounds, but that is upwards of 3k on speakers that I think could be better spent on higher quality components such as some of Curt Campbell or CJD's builds.

Since the LCRs will be behind a transparent screen, I think I could come out of the wall a bit since they will be hidden, but on the side walls (one of them being exterior) I'd like to try for flush or maybe keep it only a few inches out.

I'm a fan of the DAYTON RS series speakers and would like to go with a MTM (2 way) setup or possibly and WMTM (3 way) setup using maybe the RS225P the RS28F. I understand that the in walls for the side surrounds and rear surrounds will probably have to use smaller drivers due to the 4" walls, but I could pull them out of the wall maybe another inch or two if that would help.

For a sub I plan on going with the Dayton Ultimax 18-22 in a large ported box with an iNuke6kDSP so the in-walls don't need to reach down super low in the audio spectrum, but everything else needs to stay in/on walls.

I've talked to Curt a bit and he had nothing but great things to say about the CJD designs for crossovers and speakers. I've also seen the Zaph Audio MTM setups with crossovers for in-walls, but I haven't heard them in person. Id like to keep the total cost for speakers/crossovers and materials under 3,000 if possible for a 7 speaker setup. I like the designs for the Def Technology speakers but I just think something "better" could be done for about the same money and using better components.

I can solder and can build cabinets and can follow schematics, but I don't have any experience in designing crossovers or speaker enclosures for that matter.

I have a pro audio background as i ran FOH for a big midwest audio/lighting company, but that was for large scale line arrays. I am familiar with SPL measurement, Real Time Analysis software (we used SMAART LIVE) and room acoustics. Curt gave some great info on Jeff Bagbys PCD tools and some other tips, so i'm not opposed to doing some analysis in the basement, but I would need to purchase an RTA microphone for this purpose (such as the UMM-1 or the UMIK I think).

I plan to get an Onkyo 1030 or Denon X4100W to drive the HT speakers.

I live in the Cedar Rapids IA area if that matters.

I'd appreciate any help or insight you guys have, but if this task just seems too impossible, I can just go the Def Tech route and be done with it. I just have to believe that someone could do a better job with better components and some ingenuity!!!

Thanks

Eric

[cjd]

For starters, if you find your way out to Chicago give a holler - unless I'm not around, you can swing by for a demo. It's about a 4hr drive, give or take traffic around the airport, and I'm around the corner from a hoppin' good street (Clark street in Andersonville, just a few blocks) for just about anything (and 7 miles from the city center if you're making a weekend of it and hitting up the town.)

The front stage from my HT would match up with the In-khans which are a design that surprised me in their own right, though different tweeters sonically extremely similar. 4" depth may be an issue, but if you can build them into columns and gain an extra 4" you'd be golden. These were measured in place behind the screen The Khanspires have also been mounted on-wall behind a screen (24+ inches from screen to the wall IIRC.) Now, how does that match up to the DefTechs? No idea. The only commercial comparison was one done years ago with my MTM, and I've never looked back (based on the number of designs I've done with Ryan, neither has he...) That included Ascend, Paradigm, and Dynaudio. I don't remember what else.

I run out of tweeter somewhere about 115dB (though that seems to be heat?) and cross at 60Hz. I've pushed to 116Hz. They're not fun at that level since they're tuned slightly forward to be clear speech at lower volumes (65-70dB is average movie volume here!) I used to be in a smallish room (9x11x7) and now much much bigger, but they fill the space either way comfortably. I still run an IB sub with 4 15" Tempest-X, though now it's in a bumped out wall where I tore out a ventless fireplace (I did extend the wall size a bit, but it's not the 3k cu/ft I used to have.) That's with RS180's.

I'd have to run box numbers to be 100% sure, but my front wall boxes are about 8" deep (I think 8x30x14 external?) That's pretty flexible as long as you provide room behind the woofers to breathe and manage the rear wave adequately. It's sealed, so it's really about "enough" to "more than enough" - I can be more specific if you're interested.

Custom is also an option if you want something new and different. I'm racing again this summer so my "play" time is lower (and we're waiting to sell the old house, and I don't have a way to haul plywood home just yet, and the house needs some custom work, and... well, you get the picture...)

DIY shows don't really have in-wall stuff, so I know very little about what else is out there but nothing you're looking at is going to be a slouch - all really good designers.

Go separates if you can swing it. I had an Onkyo (still do, for that matter) and even used it as the amplifier stage when the HDMI ports finally stopped working well enough and I got a pre-pro (Emotiva UMC-1, no longer made,) but now I have a XPA-7 and... wow. Yeah. I'm happy to spend your money. Mine too, but an XSP will probably wait...

[ericnhitterdal]

For starters, if you find your way out to Chicago give a holler - unless I'm not around, you can swing by for a demo. It's about a 4hr drive, give or take traffic around the airport, and I'm around the corner from a hoppin' good street (Clark street in Andersonville, just a few blocks) for just about anything (and 7 miles from the city center if you're making a weekend of it and hitting up the town.)

The front stage from my HT would match up with the In-khans which are a design that surprised me in their own right, though different tweeters sonically extremely similar. 4" depth may be an issue, but if you can build them into columns and gain an extra 4" you'd be golden. These were measured in place behind the screen The Khanspires have also been mounted on-wall behind a screen (24+ inches from screen to the wall IIRC.) Now, how does that match up to the DefTechs? No idea. The only commercial comparison was one done years ago with my MTM, and I've never looked back (based on the number of designs I've done with Ryan, neither has he...) That included Ascend, Paradigm, and Dynaudio. I don't remember what else.

I run out of tweeter somewhere about 115dB (though that seems to be heat?) and cross at 60Hz. I've pushed to 116Hz. They're not fun at that level since they're tuned slightly forward to be clear speech at lower volumes (65-70dB is average movie volume here!) I used to be in a smallish room (9x11x7) and now much much bigger, but they fill the space either way comfortably. I still run an IB sub with 4 15" Tempest-X, though now it's in a bumped out wall where I tore out a ventless fireplace (I did extend the wall size a bit, but it's not the 3k cu/ft I used to have.) That's with RS180's.

I'd have to run box numbers to be 100% sure, but my front wall boxes are about 8" deep (I think 8x30x14 external?) That's pretty flexible as long as you provide room behind the woofers to breathe and manage the rear wave adequately. It's sealed, so it's really about "enough" to "more than enough" - I can be more specific if you're interested.

Custom is also an option if you want something new and different. I'm racing again this summer so my "play" time is lower (and we're waiting to sell the old house, and I don't have a way to haul plywood home just yet, and the house needs some custom work, and... well, you get the picture...)

DIY shows don't really have in-wall stuff, so I know very little about what else is out there but nothing you're looking at is going to be a slouch - all really good designers.

Go separates if you can swing it. I had an Onkyo (still do, for that matter) and even used it as the amplifier stage when the HDMI ports finally stopped working well enough and I got a pre-pro (Emotiva UMC-1, no longer made,) but now I have a XPA-7 and... wow. Yeah. I'm happy to spend your money. Mine too, but an XSP will probably wait...

Next time I am in the area I will try to PM you, I appreciate the offer. I have some room to work with in the LCR location as that will be a transparent screen but would probably require an in/on wall solution with 8-10" total. If required I could build smaller matching surrounds and rears maybe like the zaph audio 5.3 in walls but with Dayton reference components and the in wall xover from madisound for those.. Though the rears may have to be in ceiling since the rear wall is roughly 16 feet backback from the approx listening position. Thoughts on rears in wall or in ceiling? If 16ft is an ok distance delay wise I'll go the inwall rear route.

[kevinm]

NO personal experience with AT screens here, but I have heard that the experience is the most immersive when the sound comes from behind the screen. If you already have AT screen, I would think you'd be better served to utilize the space and hide the speakers. Sound coming from the screen seems much more natural.

Or did I read your original post incorrectly?

[ericnhitterdal]

For starters, if you find your way out to Chicago give a holler - unless I'm not around, you can swing by for a demo. It's about a 4hr drive, give or take traffic around the airport, and I'm around the corner from a hoppin' good street (Clark street in Andersonville, just a few blocks) for just about anything (and 7 miles from the city center if you're making a weekend of it and hitting up the town.)

The front stage from my HT would match up with the In-khans which are a design that surprised me in their own right, though different tweeters sonically extremely similar. 4" depth may be an issue, but if you can build them into columns and gain an extra 4" you'd be golden. These were measured in place behind the screen The Khanspires have also been mounted on-wall behind a screen (24+ inches from screen to the wall IIRC.) Now, how does that match up to the DefTechs? No idea. The only commercial comparison was one done years ago with my MTM, and I've never looked back (based on the number of designs I've done with Ryan, neither has he...) That included Ascend, Paradigm, and Dynaudio. I don't remember what else.

I run out of tweeter somewhere about 115dB (though that seems to be heat?) and cross at 60Hz. I've pushed to 116Hz. They're not fun at that level since they're tuned slightly forward to be clear speech at lower volumes (65-70dB is average movie volume here!) I used to be in a smallish room (9x11x7) and now much much bigger, but they fill the space either way comfortably. I still run an IB sub with 4 15" Tempest-X, though now it's in a bumped out wall where I tore out a ventless fireplace (I did extend the wall size a bit, but it's not the 3k cu/ft I used to have.) That's with RS180's.

I'd have to run box numbers to be 100% sure, but my front wall boxes are about 8" deep (I think 8x30x14 external?) That's pretty flexible as long as you provide room behind the woofers to breathe and manage the rear wave adequately. It's sealed, so it's really about "enough" to "more than enough" - I can be more specific if you're interested.

Custom is also an option if you want something new and different. I'm racing again this summer so my "play" time is lower (and we're waiting to sell the old house, and I don't have a way to haul plywood home just yet, and the house needs some custom work, and... well, you get the picture...)

DIY shows don't really have in-wall stuff, so I know very little about what else is out there but nothing you're looking at is going to be a slouch - all really good designers.

Go separates if you can swing it. I had an Onkyo (still do, for that matter) and even used it as the amplifier stage when the HDMI ports finally stopped working well enough and I got a pre-pro (Emotiva UMC-1, no longer made,) but now I have a XPA-7 and... wow. Yeah. I'm happy to spend your money. Mine too, but an XSP will probably wait...

NO personal experience with AT screens here, but I have heard that the experience is the most immersive when the sound comes from behind the screen. If you already have AT screen, I would think you'd be better served to utilize the space and hide the speakers. Sound coming from the screen seems much more natural.

Or did I read your original post incorrectly?

Yup I plan to utilize the space behind the AT screen but don't have a lot of depth, maybe 1ft max due to a double door being next to the screen. The sides and rears are where I'm limited to 4" depth so an in wall is necessary there

[---k---]

I had an Onkyo (still do, for that matter) and even used it as the amplifier stage when the HDMI ports finally stopped working well enough

Yeah, the HDMI port in my NR3000 is problematic too. 4 years old. This is one that was already replaced under warranty a few months after purchase. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend that kind of money on another Onkyo. I wish there was a good reasonably priced pre-pro out there.

One of these days, we'll be finishing my new basement with an all in-wall options and big IB sub. But, that may be further out than I initially planned. ...

[deewan]

I live in the Cedar Rapids IA area if that matters.

I'd appreciate any help or insight you guys have, but if this task just seems too impossible, I can just go the Def Tech route and be done with it. I just have to believe that someone could do a better job with better components and some ingenuity!!!

Thanks

Eric

Cedar Rapids you say??? ME TOO!

If you decide to go with anything commercial, let me know. I have connections and can get you great deals. If you want to hear some DIY designs, let me know. I have a few and have several builds around the CR/Marion area.

Oh, and I also have some experience with the Ultimax subs. VERY NICE!!!

[ericnhitterdal]

Cedar Rapids you say??? ME TOO!

If you decide to go with anything commercial, let me know. I have connections and can get you great deals. If you want to hear some DIY designs, let me know. I have a few and have several builds around the CR/Marion area.

Oh, and I also have some experience with the Ultimax subs. VERY NICE!!!

Awesome, another resident of the city of 5 smells!

Would you care to elaborate on some of the DIY options you have done? I'm still undecided on what I want to do, but was thinking I'd do in/on walls using the RS225 RS28F and RS225 (MTM) for LCR behind the AT screen in the front, and then something like the Zaph Audio (ZA5.3iw) kit from madisound for the side surrounds and rear surrounds.

Thanks for chiming in!

[ericnhitterdal]

Cedar Rapids you say??? ME TOO!

If you decide to go with anything commercial, let me know. I have connections and can get you great deals. If you want to hear some DIY designs, let me know. I have a few and have several builds around the CR/Marion area.

Oh, and I also have some experience with the Ultimax subs. VERY NICE!!!

Also, what in-walls are you using?

[deewan]

I am not using inwalls, I do have Paradigm Millenia LP on wall speakers for my surrounds. I had thought about building some DIY inwalls for my surrounds, but decided to buy instead.

http://www.paradigm.com/products-current/series=millenia/model=millenia-lp/page=overview

Here are some of speakers I've built:
*Four pairs of Clearwave Dynamics
*Two pairs of Statements
*One pair of modified Statements (currently building)
*Three pair of Zaph's BAMTM's
*Five pair of Madisound Recession Busters
*One pair of TriTrix
*Custom 2-way bookshelf
*Numerous sub designs

If it were me and I were doing inwall for behind the screen, I'd build cjd's inwalls and make sure I create some sound isolation boxes for behind the drywall.

http://www.divine-audio.com/in-khan-neatos/

The Zaph inwalls you mentioned would be great for surround duty.

[cjd]

12" is more than adequate space for what I have on my front wall.

My surrounds are actually set up to be mounted no more than 4" into a wall/ceiling (or on wall/ceiling) - http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...pleting-the-HT - I demo'd these in Iowa last year sitting on the floor, tweeter facing up (and a couple other times.) I'm a little surprised just how well they work to create a reasonably immersive sound field in any seat in the house while still providing some ability to pinpoint sound.

Lots of options though, and really depends just how you want to go. I'll see about getting some updated pictures of the new space.

C