Pondering an IDS-25 Clone (sort of) for HT

[fjhuerta]

Here are a few pics of my progress, will be gluing today

Jeez, that's the right way to do it. You, sir, are going to be blown away by the end results. 8O

[fjhuerta]

My plan is to use the Mini dsp (already purchased one).
We will probably try the eq'ing with the XMC and Dirac though.
Its always fun messing around with different things.
I have to brush up on the measuring side of this hobby though.

MiniDSP is going to be just fine, that's what I used.

Stay as far away as possible from Behringer stuff!

[flamethrower1]

MiniDSP is going to be just fine, that's what I used.

Stay as far away as possible from Behringer stuff!

I was hoping you were still lurking, sent you a PM and did not here back from you.
Good to know all is well and you are still with us.
It was your original build that started me down this adventure.
I was planning on starting with your posted settings on the DSP and tweaking from there

[flamethrower1]

money shot shot shot.
Anyway, glad to be at this point, 6 hand rubbed coats of Danish oil and poly semigloss.
Speakers are going in Thursday and audition is Saturday.
I do have a couple of questions for you guys that are a little up the food level chain than myself.
I have the calibrated mic UMIK-1 and would like to get more into the measurement side of this hobby.
What program, sound card etc. would I need to accomplish this, oh without breaking the bank

[fjhuerta]

I was hoping you were still lurking, sent you a PM and did not here back from you.
Good to know all is well and you are still with us.
It was your original build that started me down this adventure.
I was planning on starting with your posted settings on the DSP and tweaking from there

Awesome! You'll be rewarded, your speakers look far better built than mine. You are in for a big suprise! I'll be posting a lot more here, my job is not as demanding as it used to be. Shoot me a PM if you need anything!

[oneplustwo]

Looks great, congrats! Curious to know if you can describe the room they're going into. Any chance to position these in corners to see if there's a significant impact to FR? Asking selfishly given my implementation will be more like the Murphy Corner Line Array.

[flamethrower1]

The room they are going into is probably around 15-17 ft wide and 20 ft deep, my plan is to put them in the corners to try them but, the guys house that they are going to hates putting speakers in corners.
Hope to prove to him that this is a good thing.

[oneplustwo]

Couldn't have asked for a better scenario! Looking forward to seeing the results.

[flamethrower1]

Awesome! You'll be rewarded, your speakers look far better built than mine. You are in for a big suprise! I'll be posting a lot more here, my job is not as demanding as it used to be. Shoot me a PM if you need anything!

Thanks Javier, much appreciated.
Could you tell me what measuring software you use?

[augerpro]

Probably of interest to those reading this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-...round-4-a.html

[fjhuerta]

Thanks Javier, much appreciated.
Could you tell me what measuring software you use?

Sure. Hope this helps.

Hardware:
Sound Blaster USB sound card / Audigy 2ZS PCMCIA card / Sound Blaster CardExpress card (basically any outboard card will do).
Behringer ECM8000 mic / PE measurement mic (both calibrated by Herb Singleton, of Cross Spectrum Labs: http://www.cross-spectrum.com/)
Behringer mixer (for microphone phantom power).
MiniDSP (Balanced model)
iPad2 / iPhone 5

Software:
I've found I can't use MLS measurements on line arrays. The software just doesn't help, with all those drivers and comb filtering.

I use SynRTA (http://www.libinst.com/SynRTA.htm) with my microphone calibration file.

For quick and dirty measurements, iOS' AudioTools, with a PE mic (iMM-6) and a calibration file works superbly.

[oneplustwo]

Probably of interest to those reading this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-...round-4-a.html

Interesting... good to see the paper cone Vifa rising to the top! Validates my choice of that driver for now. Thanks for the link!

[flamethrower1]

I had to put this project on the back burner for a while for other more important things.
Anyway, the two frankenstein twins are done and waiting for an electrical storm to light them up.
According to my local forecast should happen Sunday afternoon.
Would like to thank everyone who has helped me out with this adventure.
Your knowledge and experience is invaluable and appreciated

[---k---]

Nice. Looking forward to your listening impressions.

[Wesayso]

No first sound yet? We want to hear about it .

[flamethrower1]

Ok, here it goes, first of all I have no fancy graphs to show anyone, and I have never reviewed a listening experience before.
All I can say is that I personally liked the way they sound.
I could stand way off to one side of the room and still hear the other channel.
The source equipment was a Systemdek with a Lyra Skala cartridge and PS Audio Phono stage.
This was complimented with Emotiva XPA-2 amp an an XMC-1 PRE AMP
I liked the way the sounded so much that I ordered 50 of the Vifa FD drivers to replace my Mini Statements as my mains.

[oneplustwo]

Congrats! I'm planning on going with the paper coned version of those drivers. Mine will be corner loaded, but otherwise the same concept. Any insights on the EQ process? Did you use the miniDSP or just let the XMC Dirac EQ do all the work?

I liked the way the sounded so much that I ordered 50 of the Vifa FD drivers to replace my Mini Statements as my mains.

[Wesayso]

Sounds like you enjoyed the sound you heard . What Vifa driver did you order, paper coned TC of fibreglass TG? And if it is the last one, the 4 ohm or 8 ohm?
I don't have any experience with the fiberglass Vifa's but from what I've read the TG9 FD10-08 is considered the better of those two.
I have a set of the Scan Speak 10F/8424 G00, now there's a driver to admire. It does everything a little bit better than the Vifa's but at a price. And looking at
the way it's build it wasn't meant to play low. It does have a remarkable x-max figure though.
I'm going to use mine to simulate late reflections from a bigger room playing from behind the listening position, band passed, delayed, attenuated and probably L-R signal.

[JonMarsh]

Ok, here it goes, first of all I have no fancy graphs to show anyone, and I have never reviewed a listening experience before.
All I can say is that I personally liked the way they sound.
I could stand way off to one side of the room and still hear the other channel.
The source equipment was a Systemdek with a Lyra Skala cartridge and PS Audio Phono stage.
This was complimented with Emotiva XPA-2 amp an an XMC-1 PRE AMP
I liked the way the sounded so much that I ordered 50 of the Vifa FD drivers to replace my Mini Statements as my mains.

Now, you know you can believe an endorsement when they put their own money where there mouth is... :W :B

[flamethrower1]

Yeah I ordered the TG9 FD10-08, they ended up being like 19.00 dollars each.
So if I build the cabinets the same way I will have a little over 1100.00 in them.
Of coarse, I will have to use 24 drivers per side so I can stand them up in my living room though.
As far as the EQ, we used the mini DSP set per Javiers examples that he posted here and the Parts Express website and tweeked them by ear from there.
My buddy is kind of reluctant to try Dirac for whatever reason

[flamethrower1]

Oh yeah, once again for all your help guys, it is greatly appreciated

[flamethrower1]

Jeez, meant to say thanks for all of your help

[Wesayso]

The Vifa's can be packed quite close together, I have them 85.5 mm apart centre to centre. There's still some room in between 2 drivers to get even closer but I have the first part of the chambers sealed between the drivers. Save choice going with the FD10-08. I did consider those but I always liked the sound of paper cones and went with the TC9. The TG has a bit more open chamber if I recall right with a 3 legged basket. Strangely enough the more expensive 10F resembles the TC9 basket design, only in cast alu. The strangest thing on the 10F is the closed spider design, making me think it was meant to play above it's resonance. Both the Vifa's don't have that and were meant to play full range in TV sets.

Glad to hear the initial sound did impress. It can only get better. I remember my initial stereo test, I played "He's a Pirate" from the movie "Pirates of the Caribbean" and it knocked me of my feet.
The dynamics and big sound really is something else. Though it can do small stage stuff as well. With a bit of work on the room (1st reflections) it really shines! I think mostly because of the absence of the floor and ceiling reflections and the line effect. Sure comb filtering does exist, but I haven't heard a single one of my visitors comment on that in a listening session.

Awesome choice for HT if you ask me.

[JonMarsh]

Awesome choice for HT if you ask me.

That's my planned application area for these- should give more seating flexility for comparable sound stage.

[JonMarsh]

Awesome choice for HT if you ask me.

That's my planned application area for these- should give more seating flexility for comparable sound stage.

[flamethrower1]

UPDATE; I am no longer an owner of these line arrays, they now belong to someone else.
Also, with the Peerless drivers, it looks like I will be able to stack them close enough to use 25 in a cabinet and stand them up in my house.
Oh this is going to be fun

[oneplustwo]

Which Peerless drivers? Pros and cons vs. the original Vifa drivers?

[flamethrower1]

Peerless TG9FD10-08 3.5" Fiberglass Full Range 8 ohm... these
I talked to one of the salesman and he said they were the same, not so?

[Wesayso]

Yes, those were originally produced under the Vifa brand name. Tymphany has moved them to the Peerless side of their business.

The ancestor of the Vifa/Peerless TG9 FD10-08 is probably this one: https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/datenb...fa-10-bgs-1198

The Scan Speak 10F was made right after they split from Tymphany (in 2009), probably based on the above driver as well. Very strong family resemblances there.
That same site above also tested the TC9: https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/datenb...59-vifa-tc9fd8
And a Kevlar variant: https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/datenb...fa-10-bgs-1206
That last one has been produced in an updated style as the TYPY03W06O0111. http://www.parts-express.com/tymphan...river--299-220

But more recently the original family seems to be reducing in size. Though gaining newer siblings with stamped steel baskets.

[flamethrower1]

OK, thanks for the clarification Wesayso.
I called Madisound today to make sure that they had the drivers in stock and they said they had plenty.
I also got a good deal on the qty also, I am not going to post numbers but, I will say it was generous.

[oneplustwo]

Ah, I see. I'm still planning on the paper cone version given the value equation so it will be nice to see the contrast in addition to the fact that mine will be in the corners of the room. Can I ask if you're considering a center channel as well?

[flamethrower1]

I actually ordered the Statements II center from menascus about a week ago, simply because they fit in the amount of real estate I have available and I like the way the Statement series sounds

[oneplustwo]

Got it. Have you considered trying a mini line array center channel by any chance? Wondering if an array of maybe 6-8 drivers (perhaps even mounted in the wall) might be able to work well for center channel duties. Especially with miniDSP and Dirac to help with EQ and such.

[JonMarsh]

It would have a real problem with changing tonal balance with distance. Heck, I don't even like some of the Griffin like arrays I've heard that had 8 or 10 5" drivers - they got pretty midrange shouty fairly quickly, because they were a solid array from 250 up, and not long enough to have floor and ceiling mirroring.

[oneplustwo]

I had another semi-radical thought... what if you mounted them at the corner of the ceiling and wall? You'd have the benefit of corner loading, but not left/right wall mirroring. Would it sound like the dialog was coming from the ceiling? Perhaps not too bad compared to a center channel mounted under a TV. Not as good as behind a screen of course...

[flamethrower1]

Just an update, got to spend a little time over at the friends house where these now live.
All I can say is that I am impressed with the way they sound.
A couple of other mutual friends who were familiar with his previous set up also liked them.
Came home and fired up my system and really noticed a lack of width on the soundstage.
I do not like to listen to music loud, I like it clear.
And these just seem to do what I like.
I am really looking forward to getting my next pair fired up so I can enjoy them in my house

[capslock]

Jon your memory really is failing you these days, or maybe it's just a case of Homer Simpson style stuff, your learn more and all it does is push other stuff out!

Here are distortion measurements for the SB65

2.83vrms

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23816[/ATTACH]

2.83vrms +10dB

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23817[/ATTACH]

2.83vrms -10dB (probably more representative of a line array)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23818[/ATTACH]

Very nice.

Can you please point me to the source of these measurements? They are devoid of distortion peaks.

Vance Dickason, on the other hand, measured the same driver and reports so-and-so BxL and compliance curves, as well as nasty 3rd harmonic distortion in the 600 - 800 Hz range (2.5% at 94 dB/1m). He has been known to neglect rear venting but the distortion measurements were supposedly done with the driver mounted in free air.

http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/resources/ES140Ti-8%20Voice%20Coil%20Review%20by%20Vance%20-%20January%202015.pdf

Anybody make sense of this?

[oneplustwo]

Been a while since any update here... but I did purchase 70 of the Vifa TC9. They were on sale at PE for $9 a pop so I jumped on them. Plus I had $20 off coupon and doubled it by placing two orders. So I kinda got 4 free! Our house permit should (finally) be approved tomorrow so these will sit in storage for a good 9 months while we go through construction. But that gives me some time to perfect my miniDSP balanced 2x4 I also go recently.

Anyone else make any progress here?

[JonMarsh]

Not on this topic. Just the Minerva, which was developed partly in response to a situation at work; which is now turning into a morass of pointy haired management (for you Dilbert fans, you'll know what I'm talking about). Maybe time for an Alice fist of death? :W

[flamethrower1]

Sorry to report nothing on my end either.
I somehow got in the business of building turntable plinths and it is keeping me busy.
I made my own first and needed new springs for the suspension, I sourced some and ordered a 100 and put them on Ebay with a pic of my deck.
Now I need to build 12 of them.
When these are done I am going to get back to the line arrays hopefully.

[JonMarsh]

Diversification can be a good thing for keeping your own interest level and excitement up- but it does contribute to "Slow Work Takes Time" :W

[---k---]

Sorry to report nothing on my end either.
I somehow got in the business of building turntable plinths and it is keeping me busy.
I made my own first and needed new springs for the suspension, I sourced some and ordered a 100 and put them on Ebay with a pic of my deck.
Now I need to build 12 of them.
When these are done I am going to get back to the line arrays hopefully.

Nice. Hopefully you're selling them at good profit for your time.

[sdl2112]

Sorry to report nothing on my end either.
I somehow got in the business of building turntable plinths and it is keeping me busy.
I made my own first and needed new springs for the suspension, I sourced some and ordered a 100 and put them on Ebay with a pic of my deck.
Now I need to build 12 of them.
When these are done I am going to get back to the line arrays hopefully.

Very nice :T. Can you tell us the type of wood and what finish you used...they look great.

[flamethrower1]

Nice. Hopefully you're selling them at good profit for your time.

Yeah, coming out good money wise, they actually are relatively easy to build since I made templates the first time around.
I do think I will be paying a visit to the local wood shop who has CNC capability though.

[flamethrower1]

Very nice :T. Can you tell us the type of wood and what finish you used...they look great.

The sides are solid 3/4 mahogany, the top is 1/2 MDF with mahogany veneer.
The armboard is mahogany and bubinga glued together, with the bubinga showing (wanted a little contrast).
The finish is my own little mix of regular polyurethane and danish oil applied with fine steel wool.
I did the plinth after not being happy with the original, WAY to sensitive to environmental influences.