Need suggestion on selecting DIY Kits

[daniel4381]

Hi, This will be my first try of building a speaker, but I am confused in selecting the kits. I have a Bose Acoustimass 10 for enjoying movie that is powered by Onkyo NR 727. According to my experience the performance of Bose for listening music is awful. I have another receiver that is Yamaha rxv 595 but no speaker at this moment. I also have yamaha yst sw160 active woofer. I need a speaker that is suitable for enjoying classical music (classical and instrumental) where there is very clear high, mid range and reasonable low but not harsh and listening fatigue, soundstage and imaging are also important to me. I have a limited budget (500/600 $ including cabinet) so initially I was planing to buy a magnepan MMG but I could not decide as I have never heard any maggies. I have no knowledge or experience on electronics but I have good access to woodwork and soldering. I prefer floor-standing speaker. With this little bit explanation please give your valuable suggestion on my selection of kits
1. Swope Tower http://meniscusaudio.com/swope-tower-pair-p-1334.html
2. Speedster TMM http://meniscusaudio.com/speedster-pair-p-1393.html
3. Zaph|Audio ZA5.3t TMM Tower, Pair http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...mm-tower-pair/
4. Or any other that can fit onto my budget.
Your cooperation is highly expected, thanks.

[5th element]

The ZA14 driver is killer. It measures more like drivers costing $150+ and I've used the DQ25 in one of my own designs and was extremely pleased with it's presentation. If you're after a smaller, more budget orientated floor stander then it's hard to go wrong with the Zaph design.

[JonMarsh]

+1 on that- the ZA14 is a great part, wonderful distortion. I'm working on an MTM using it and the Transducer Labs 26C, but don't expect to have that done until later this year, due to time constraints.

[daniel4381]

Thanks 5th element and JonMarsh for your support. I am seriously thinking about ZA 5.3 or ZA 5.5. How about Statement Monitor in comparison to ZA5.5?

[cjd]

I'll add another vote for Zaph's work if you need a kit, though I base that purely on reputation and the work of his I have heard.

If you can swing it, a 3-way will be worth the extra for classical. Bass demands can occasionally exceed design expectations (the Speedster TMM was at its limit and was losing midrange clarity on Pachelbel's Canon and listening levels in the mid 80dB range at about 2.5 meters.)

Paul does excellent work, but as an ultra-picky designer that focuses on voicing to get classical right, his voicing is not for me. He trends a bit more to "rock the house" though he's done some pretty neutral designs lately.

I haven't heard the Statements, but I've now heard the Finalist built with the mid open back on multiple occasions and hated it for classical. Mind, time spent trying to perfect the setup was limited (but considered with some care) in the best instance (I didn't even qualify the first listen since it was clearly not set up properly) but that alone makes me wary; it seems exceedingly sensitive to setup (assuming setup can fix the issues I observed.) I had no sense of the space in which the performance happened, and lost understanding of the orchestra layout. There was definitely a strong sense of space, but it wasn't right. Obviously, a lot of people rave about these designs, and the Finalist was very well done - it just wasn't for me.

We're trying to figure out if there is any way to make a kit version of the Nebbiolo, but don't hold your breath. The ambitious box seems to be a limiting factor for some builders, though.

[daniel4381]

Thanks cjd from your help, I think Nebbiolo will exceed my budget, and I cannot afford that as my first built. Garnacha looks like a good match with my requirement and budget. Is there any kit version of Garnacha? Thanks again.

[Jim Holtz]

I haven't heard the Statements, but I've now heard the Finalist built with the mid open back on multiple occasions and hated it for classical. Mind, time spent trying to perfect the setup was limited (but considered with some care) in the best instance (I didn't even qualify the first listen since it was clearly not set up properly) but that alone makes me wary; it seems exceedingly sensitive to setup (assuming setup can fix the issues I observed.) I had no sense of the space in which the performance happened, and lost understanding of the orchestra layout. There was definitely a strong sense of space, but it wasn't right. Obviously, a lot of people rave about these designs, and the Finalist was very well done - it just wasn't for me.

Hi Chris,

Interesting comments about the Finalists. I don't know whose Finalists you were listening to but if they sounded that bad, please have them contact me. There is something drastically wrong with the build, crossover or positioning. Curt would never have signed off on anything that sounded as you described. :W

Speaking of positioning, all any of the Statements or Finalists need are a flat wall behind them with 1 1/2' - 4' of clearance to sound their best just like every other audiophile speaker and not be tucked into cubbyholes or have huge furniture sitting between the speakers.

Come up to Meniscus to hear both the Statements II and Finalists on 9-6 or Iowa DIY to hear the Statements II in October. Bring some of your designs. There's room for everyone.

Jim

[---k---]

I'm not sure when you say kit, do you mean you're looking for something that will fit a prefab box or that you need the crossover assembled or both? What tools do you have and what are you willing to do?

If you're not looking to build the boxes, CJD's/my Ochocincos will fit the standard PE boxes. You still need to cut the holes for the drivers. But, with this design, the drivers are all surface mounted so you can get away with just a drill and jig saw. No router. Makes it very first build friendly. This is probably at the low end of your budget. But, that is okay. Easy to get your feet wet. Put some nicer caps than NPE and the price quickly goes up. This one play way beyond it's price.

The In-Khan-Neatos with the away from wall crossover is another interesting option. It is a 3-way with lots of capabilities. It is probably at the high end of your price range. It is designed to fit standard PE boxes. You would need a router to cut the driver holes. It isn't hard. Jon Marsh has done that on an apartment balcony. I hesitate to recommend this one, because we only built the in-wall version (which has a special magic). But, CJD has a lot of work with the RS drivers and somehow is able to get the crossover right with just the models. As far as I know, there wasn't any "voicing" with the Khans.

CJD designed the crossovers for both. He has a love for classical. I don't think you can go wrong with his designs. Paul and Curts are equally good designs. Crossovers and speakers are trade-offs. There are pros and cons for each decision.

Really, I've said it before that you can't go wrong with any of the popular DIY designs (well, there are a few bad apples. but you haven't listed any). You will be happy with any of those and likely not know what you're missing unless you get them side by side and do some serious hard listening. You'll go crazy trying to decide. And then even the room you hear them in makes a difference. I've heard my Khans that sound great in my room and less than great in JonW's room (size/positioning). Just put the names on a dart board and throw a dart. Or, build the cheapest to get some experience. Then build a super nice second pair with your awesome new skills.

Oh and building boxes isn't hard, but not for everyone. You may be also able to find a local cabinet maker or wood worker to build them for you. Ask at your local hardwood store or a place like Rockler. And there are places on the internet that will cnc a flat pack for you. Building crossovers is super easy. We can teach you. a $40 soldering gun is all you need to be successful. They really aren't that hard. I think Meniscus will assemble anything for a fee.

And if you're anywhere near Grand Rapids, MI go to the Miniscus event. Nothing like those types of events. Or Iowa or one of the other events.

[cjd]

My suggestion re: the Nebbiolo was tongue in cheek. That'd be a pretty crazy kit. None of the designs I've done are available as kits right now, but as Ryan noted the Ocho is designed to work in PE's standard boxes. I think there's a BOM with part numbers in the thread. However, I'm wary of the tweeter variances we've observed - I have plans to revisit the concept that resulted in the design, probably with the newer PE tweeters (not available when the Ocho was done) - the family may grow to include a 3-way or two as well. I think they're a great intro to DIY, but you'd be wanting to upgrade for serious classical listening. They're voiced to movie-watching needs, and just a bit muddy on the detail that I found weird on the Finalists.

Hi Chris,

Interesting comments about the Finalists. I don't know whose Finalists you were listening to but if they sounded that bad, please have them contact me. There is something drastically wrong with the build, crossover or positioning. Curt would never have signed off on anything that sounded as you described. :W

I do not believe they sounded bad - indeed, I noted that I believe the design is very well done - I guess I stopped short of saying they sounded good, but they did. However, I do not believe they allowed the subtleties of a performance to be accurately present, and the inaccuracy is what drove me batty. The shape and placement of the instruments, the breaths, the saw of bows on strings, the shuffling of performers, and the performance hall were weird. I hope it's OK they sound good and still leave me disappointed. They were placed closer to the 1.5' clearance from the wall side of the range, but the room was a little on the live side. I was getting a tour of a car system at the time they were set up so I'm not sure just how much time was spent twiddling placement. In that room, a little more space to the wall may well have helped a ton.

That said, the recommendation to get to a DIY event is spot on. Just because I'm not keen on the Finalists I heard for classical has little or nothing to do with whether someone else might like Statement Monitors. Take time to get a seat as close to the sweet spot as possible (the occasional head-in-a-vise design shows up - InDIYana had one that I thought sounded horrible, then I moved over about a meter and sat down. World of difference. That crazy off-axis still would leave me hesitant to recommend generally...

Best of luck

C

[---k---]

I think they're a great intro to DIY, but you'd be wanting to upgrade for serious classical listening. They're voiced to movie-watching needs, and just a bit muddy on the detail ...
C

Coming from Bose, I doubt he'll notice. :P

I also share your concerns about the tweeter. I hesitate so much to recommend our designs. Just knowing how much the sound can be altered based on the stuffing used makes me hesitant. But it is true with all designs.

[daniel4381]

I'm not sure when you say kit, do you mean you're looking for something that will fit a prefab box or that you need the crossover assembled or both? What tools do you have and what are you willing to do?

pardon for my ignorance, I have no experience in building speakers. I had a Bose 701, but I started disliking that after hearing a setup of my friend which he prepared by himself taking the exerts help online. Very recently I sold off my Bose 701 and decided to build one. I am still trying to understand the graphs and the terminologies, also the calculations that you experts are using. I have good access to woodwork and electronic workshops. I was thinking of getting a kit where there will be detail instructions about the measurement of the cabinet and damping. Yes, most of the information are there in the projects like "Divine Audio" and other but some information like damping detail and the materials are missing. It would be extremely helpful for the newbies like me if more detail about the parts or the parts ID of some store is given; like when I searched for "1.5μF capacitor" I got this two from Madisound http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...%BCF+capacitor , so, got confused. This might be very silly question to many, but for the newbies like me it is a crying need.
I am really benefited with the expert suggestion and learning through this. Thanks to all

[cjd]

Coming from Bose, I doubt he'll notice. :P

I also share your concerns about the tweeter. I hesitate so much to recommend our designs. Just knowing how much the sound can be altered based on the stuffing used makes me hesitant. But it is true with all designs.

I don't know, Bose isn't the worst I've heard in the midrange - it's the top and bottom that often suffers, and for serious listening the ones I've had any time with were seriously wrong. When it comes to filling a room with pleasing background noise, I've even recommended Bose. As to recommending designs, I'm never sure what to do - tweeter issues aside, I think any we've done can be recommended with confidence, along with a list of other designers I never remember properly, so I'll not say. Curt is on that list, including the Statement/Finalist series (even though I'm not sure I'd want one) as are Zaph and Paul (I think that's all the designers being discussed here already...) Happy builders is always good, but they're not always all happy - it's unfortunate, but so hard to know what might have been off (expectations or build.)

A budget alternative to the ocho with a bit more assurance of consistency is in the (slow) works, as I mentioned, so that may help on that end.

pardon for my ignorance, I have no experience in building speakers. I had a Bose 701, but I started disliking that after hearing a setup of my friend which he prepared by himself taking the exerts help online. Very recently I sold off my Bose 701 and decided to build one. I am still trying to understand the graphs and the terminologies, also the calculations that you experts are using. I have good access to woodwork and electronic workshops. I was thinking of getting a kit where there will be detail instructions about the measurement of the cabinet and damping. Yes, most of the information are there in the projects like "Divine Audio" and other but some information like damping detail and the materials are missing. It would be extremely helpful for the newbies like me if more detail about the parts or the parts ID of some store is given; like when I searched for "1.5μF capacitor" I got this two from Madisound http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...%BCF+capacitor , so, got confused. This might be very silly question to many, but for the newbies like me it is a crying need.
I am really benefited with the expert suggestion and learning through this. Thanks to all

I'm heavy on the Y in DIY in the designs I publish. Especially when it comes to box fill, but I'm probably close to being the worst when it comes to making for clear directions. I do think a lot of designers are a little more vague these days, however - forums are in abundance, and you can start a build thread (like this one!) and ask questions, get tips, even post pictures of crossovers for wiring validation. However, that is a good point, and I'll add it to that list of things I almost never remember to do - maybe though!

Then too, parts are variables - you can go with those silver foil Mundorf, or if you really want, standard NPE, or anywhere between. In Madisound's case, notice that they use "mfd" and revise your search to "1.5 mfd" (with quotes) and you get this: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...=%221.5+mfd%22 - the Bennic XPP isn't a bad place to start (or Dayton's house brand if you shop PE) - Solen is always a solid baseline for a cap, and you can explore the world of cap differences yourself if you like. I used a Jantzen Z Superior 5.6μF cap on the tweeter in the Nebbiolo, though I would lend more of the improvement to the network shape change, not the cap type.

It sounds like you're hoping for a one-click "add to cart" type thing when you say "kit" ? Not really a built box or assembled crossovers? If so, and you find yourself gravitating toward a design that is NOT available in this way, we can definitely help you sort through options, and you'll learn more along the way too.

Also, do you think this is likely to be a one-shot thing, or will your collection grow? How loud do you listen? What's the room like?

C

[---k---]

If you have access to woodworking and electronic gear and aren't afraid of getting your hands dirty; Pick the design you like best, start a NEW thread, and well make sure you have part numbers, etc. you need to get it right. Don't let the non-kit status scare you. And, I think you'll find many of my threads and others have more detailed information then you might get with some of the kits out there. As you can see, CJD is here. Jim is here. Paul stops in occasionally, and I'm sure if he see a speaker with his name in the title he'll stop. Don't forget about Jon Marsh and some of his legendary designs like the NatP. Also any design by Jeff Bagby is worthy of consideration. Wolf too.

Besides, I think picking the parts and customizing can be part of the fun.

And, what is you're location?

[JonW]

...well, there are a few bad apples...

...less than great in JonW...

Hey, I resemble that remark! :P


Daniel,

You’re on the right track here. I did hear the MT version of the Zaph speakers, briefly (ZA5.2, I think). They’re definitely good. Have not heard any of the other designs mentioned here. You are getting excellent advice here. As –k- said, first decide if you want to build the cabinets yourself or not. That will help narrow down your options. Also think if you want only one pair of speakers or if this will be a growing hobby.

As you asked, yes, there are several options if you want to get all the details on dampening materials and such. Here at htguide, several of the designs have detailed build threads in which you can see nearly every step taken by the original designer. With list of all the things needed (BOM- bill of materials). And often additional builds from other people. You may or may not get that level of detail from a purchased kit, depending on the history of the kit. Some build here are not super detailed but several are. Good luck!

[daniel4381]

what is you're location?

It sounds like you're hoping for a one-click "add to cart" type thing when you say "kit" ? Not really a built box or assembled crossovers? If so, and you find yourself gravitating toward a design that is NOT available in this way, we can definitely help you sort through options, and you'll learn more along the way too.

Also, do you think this is likely to be a one-shot thing, or will your collection grow? How loud do you listen? What's the room like?

As I explained, I need the parts list "add to cart" type thing so that it can be collected without much effort by my friend. I listen in moderate volume not too loud or too low. I have collection of good recorded CD, but have a lot of old CD and MP3 which are mostly compressed to 128 to 256 kbps bit rate. The speaker will be only for listening music. My room is 20' length x 17' width x 12 ' height with a Sofa on the wide side and the music system setup is placed on the opposite side of the sofa. My listening position is around 16' from the speaker. The room is without carpet.

If you have access to woodworking and electronic gear and aren't afraid of getting your hands dirty; Pick the design you like best, start a NEW thread, and well make sure you have part numbers, etc. you need to get it right. Don't let the non-kit status scare you. And, I think you'll find many of my threads and others have more detailed information then you might get with some of the kits out there. As you can see, CJD is here. Jim is here. Paul stops in occasionally, and I'm sure if he see a speaker with his name in the title he'll stop. Don't forget about Jon Marsh and some of his legendary designs like the NatP. Also any design by Jeff Bagby is worthy of consideration. Wolf too.

Thanks ---k--- and CJD once again for your wonderful support.

[daniel4381]

Hey, I resemble that remark! :P


Daniel,

You’re on the right track here. I did hear the MT version of the Zaph speakers, briefly (ZA5.2, I think). They’re definitely good. Have not heard any of the other designs mentioned here. You are getting excellent advice here. As –k- said, first decide if you want to build the cabinets yourself or not. That will help narrow down your options. Also think if you want only one pair of speakers or if this will be a growing hobby.

As you asked, yes, there are several options if you want to get all the details on dampening materials and such. Here at htguide, several of the designs have detailed build threads in which you can see nearly every step taken by the original designer. With list of all the things needed (BOM- bill of materials). And often additional builds from other people. You may or may not get that level of detail from a purchased kit, depending on the history of the kit. Some build here are not super detailed but several are. Good luck!

Thanks, I"ll build the cabinet by myself. I am looking for a three way as CJD said, but it is difficult to match the price range. I am trying to study CJD's Garnacha, Zaph's ZA 5.5 and ZDT3.5, Paul's Swope Tower for my build.

[cjd]

Ok, that does add a dimension to the question!

Room may be a little live, and is reasonably large.

I'm sure we can solve the problem of getting all the right parts together in one shot, regardless what you choose, but the appeal of a kit is clear.

The room size puts some weight behind my suggestion you go 3-way if you can swing it.

Of my designs, the Garnacha comes to mind but I'm not sure how it falls budget-wise for you.

Being able to fill the space on the low end of the frequency range is my concern with all the kits you listed. The Speedster doesn't fail comfortably when it hits excursion limits, and I don't know how either the Swope or Zaph would do. The Dayton RS180 seems to soft limit before they start making bad noises, so the Statement could be safer if pushed too hard - and the Garnacha shares that plus doubles the surface area (so you don't have to push them as hard for the same SPL.) The Swope might be fine for this reason.

Not sure - this is a tough call.

C

[---k---]

That is the problem. I am at Bunia, DR Congo commanding Bangladeshi troops of UN peace support operation and on leave now at BD.

I never saw that one coming! 8O

[JonW]

I am at Bunia, DR Congo commanding Bangladeshi troops of UN peace support operation

Now that is one impressive way to spend a career! My hat is off to you. :T ;x(

[daniel4381]

Deleted

[cjd]

I'm not going to pick a kit for you, but here is how I'd line things up.

3-way > 2.5-way > 2-way

2 woofers may be better than one, but that depends on the woofer (it's really about swept volume and how they max out.) I know the RS180+ can take a pretty crazy beating.

Of your original picks, I'd actually recommend the Statement Monitor (despite my reservations, which do seem to keep me in the minority,) though I could be selling the Swope short. Both are likely excellent with differences being more about subtleties.

The in-room variant of the In-Khan or the slightly larger Garnacha might do quite well for you, of the designs I've published. Note, I don't know that you would prefer these over those above, just that I think they'd be the most likely fit at this time. That's a TMW and TMWW around the same basic drivers.

C

[daniel4381]

Thanks cjd, I have narrowed down my choice Garnacha and RS 3way. If It appears unmanageable to me then I'll go for swope tower. Thanks