Statements II - A musical evolution!

[Jim Holtz]

A full description and plans are now available on Curt's website!

My musical reference!

Statements II – An evolution for the music lover!
The Statements II are the result of the Finalists project which focused on achieving the best midrange possible but with an eye on cost control. I and many others have touted the benefits of the Vifa/Peerless NE series drivers as mid range transducers for several months now and my opinion hasn’t changed. These drivers are smooth, natural and detailed with a sense of realism that only the best can create.

Enter the Statements II

Curt and I talked about what we might do to raise the already high bar of the Statements to the next level without creating a new cabinet design and could be either an upgrade or built as Statements II’s. I scoured available 4” driver specs and found there weren’t many drivers that would drop in that were 8 ohm, hard paper cone, neo magnet and technologically advanced enough to consider. The Vifa NE123 was the logical choice.

Curt worked his crossover magic with lots and lots of measuring, listening and crossover refinement until it sounded right. Then our good friend Wayne Wendell stopped by to add his input and more crossover tweaking resulted in the final Statements II’s that are in my listening room. They have the superb mids of the finalists and add more bass impact with greater SPL capability. The top end is hard to fault for either speaker but the ribbons have a delicate airiness about them that domes can’t compete with. Both, The Finalists and all Statements series have a very big sound with an expansive soundstage so no compromises are needed for music or Home Theater use.

Why another Statement design?

So, who was this designed for? Me actually! However, if music is 50% or more of your systems use, the Statements II is a no brainer as an upgrade to the original Statements or it’s the Statements design to build if you’re a music lover 1^st and foremost and have room so they can be properly positioned away from the wall behind and to the sides.

It’s all about the mid-range!

Do the Statements II “whomp” the Statements? No, and I wouldn’t recommend a Statements II upgrade to anyone using their Statements primarily for home theater. The Statements do an excellent job, IMHO, and the upgrade won’t improve on clarity etc. of your system for movies. If you’re a music lover, yes, I’d recommend building the Statements II or upgrading original Statements to achieve the best possible midrange sound quality within the Statements series design. The Statements II are now my musical reference!

A kit is available at Meniscus.

[sawdust]

Great Jim! I'm all over this, can't wait to hear the results!

[Jim Holtz]

Great Jim! I'm all over this, can't wait to hear the results!

Actually, I've been listening to them for several months while Curt and I have been developing matching centers for the Statements II and Finalists. I'm really pleased with the superb job Curt did, as always. The NE drivers are smooth, detailed and one of the most natural sounding drivers I've listened to.

Jim

[blue934]

Well, this just sucks! I've been slowly gathering all the bits over a couple yrs to build my statements and just got a good deal on the mids a month ago. Now you change the mids and I need to start hunting again
Kidding

Thanks for all the work you guys have put into this series. Is the mini on the books for an upgrade also?

David

[Jim Holtz]

Well, this just sucks! I've been slowly gathering all the bits over a couple yrs to build my statements and just got a good deal on the mids a month ago. Now you change the mids and I need to start hunting again
Kidding

Thanks for all the work you guys have put into this series. Is the mini on the books for an upgrade also?

David

Hi David,

The Finalists would be considered a replacement for the Monitor and Mini Statements. The Finalists offer full sized Statements performance in either a Monitor or TL floor standing cabinet compliments of Paul K.

The W4-1337's are excellent drivers and sound great. The NE123 add a sense of naturalness that takes you a step closer to the original performance if you're a music lover. If home theater dominates your listening, the originals are the ones to go for. You can always upgrade later.

Jim

[JonMarsh]

Nice looking, Jim! I've wondered how the NE drivers would work out in something like this-

BTW, do you have a link to more measured data, and crossover sims? How similar is the measured performance, both SPL on and off axis- and what do distortion sweeps of the completed system look like? These factors might give folks that don't have a chance to listen to them first hand a realistic appraisal of the difference other than subjective reactions (which are useful pointers, but you know the old saying- "In God We Trust, All others we Verify!".

[sawdust]

With this upgrade, I'm thinking of taking the crossover out of the speaker and into it's own cabinet that will sit on the floor behind the speaker. I'll end up having to rebuild the crossovers from the ground up to make a "pleasing" display of the components through perhaps a plexiglass cover. My question is what crossover component upgrades should I be looking at? Are there key components that would make a sonic difference if they were used? If there is a thread that already covers this, please point me there. Thanks!

I'm looking for a summer project and this would fit the bill. :P

[Jim Holtz]

Nice looking, Jim! I've wondered how the NE drivers would work out in something like this-

BTW, do you have a link to more measured data, and crossover sims? How similar is the measured performance, both SPL on and off axis- and what do distortion sweeps of the completed system look like? These factors might give folks that don't have a chance to listen to them first hand a realistic appraisal of the difference other than subjective reactions (which are useful pointers, but you know the old saying- "In God We Trust, All others we Verify!".

Thanks for the kind words Jon! The measurement data, cabinet drawings etc. will be available on Curt's website soon. Of course, verification of sound quality is always subjective and done by ear. :W

Jim

[JonMarsh]

Of course, verification of sound quality is always subjective and done by ear. :W

Jim

Thanks, I'll check back on Curt's site now and then for the updates.

Gee, I don't know why, but whenever I say that about speakers or electronics, people look at me like I've grown an eye in the middle of my forehead! :W

[Jonasz]

Somehow they look a LOT more appealing with the Vifa mids. Bet they sound tremendeous! :T

[5th element]

Black is back

[Evil Twin]

Without question, a significant esthetic improvement!

[KarlD]

I haven't even started building my Finalists yet and I was already thinking I could build the Statements next. But these show up and I'm loving the way they look with the Vifa mids!

How far out from the wall do these like to be? Would 70wpc amp be adequate to drive thes?

[Jim Holtz]

I haven't even started building my Finalists yet and I was already thinking I could build the Statements next. But these show up and I'm loving the way they look with the Vifa mids!

How far out from the wall do these like to be? Would 70wpc amp be adequate to drive thes?

All of the Statements series including the Statements II and Finalists are designed to be positioned 18" or so away from the wall behind and to the sides. The sides can be much further or no sides and they can be positioned anywhere from about 12" out to 4' - 5' from the wall behind them if necessary. 18" is optimal though and where the crossover is designed to sound best.

Now, the Finalists plugged back and the switch flipped will allow positioning as close as 6" from the wall behind it. The soundstage diminishes the closer it gets. Also, the near wall version of the Monitors will allow them to be positioned as close as 8"-10" away from the wall behind. The soundstage also gets smaller with this positioning.

70 watts is marginal if you're going to crank them up very much. These are also all 4 - 6 ohm speakers so they'll bring a reciever only rated at 8 ohms to its knees with the volume turned up at all. I recommend a solid amp with 100 watts @ 8 ohms minimum with the ability to drive 4 ohm loads to reach their true potential. More is better! It takes huge power to over drive them and ear plugs to protect your hearing.

Jim

[KarlD]

Thanks. My amp actually drives 135w into 4 ohm it says, and I'm not really one to crank it.

[BBLV]

Subscribed, can't wait for more details on these!

And I assume the mids are mounted in transmission lines true to the original Statement design?

[DeathMonk]

I don't check the site for a little bit and now I see my statements are outdated

It's nice that I can use the same cabinets if I ever choose to upgrade.

[Jim Holtz]

The wait is over! A full description, BOM and cabinet plans are now available on Curt's website (link in 1st post) or kits are available from Meniscus.

Jim

[deewan]

Hey Jim. I am 99% sure I already know the answer is "No, can't be done" But I'm looking for options to build the Statements and make them work better in my room and this is the only option I've come up with so far.... How horrible would it be if I were build the MTM part of the Statements in a separate cabinet and have the two Dayton drivers in a bass/base cabinet. Put the drivers in a MTMWW pattern. If memory serves me correct, it will cause problems with the sound, but I want to be 100% sure.

Similar to this... obviously with only one tweeter.

[Jim Holtz]

That is a Curt question and I can't give you an answer that I'd swear would be correct. They can be reconfigured that way as long as the width and depth remain close to original, but I don't know what the impact would be on the crossover. Curt would. I'd suggest you send him an email. However, he's extremely busy with work right now and it may be a while before you receive a reply.

So, a MTMWW works better?

Jim

[deewan]

Thanks for the response Jim. I should have known Curt would have been the ultimate resource since it was a crossover related question.

I would keep the cabinet width the same. The midrange tunnel dimensions the same and MTM spacing the same. My wife's main compliant about the Statements and why I sold them to build something else (happy wife equal happy life) was that they were so tall and obtrusive (but hey, that's why they are called the Statements, right?). So my mind began turning and one idea it came up with was if I would keep the tweeter and midrange at ear level but move both woofers to a base cabinet with the same overall internal volume. I could shave about 11 inches from the overall height. That would make them the same height as my current speakers which the wife doesn't mind at all. I simply miss the true full range of the Statements and the ribbon tweeter sound. And with my listening being about 50/50 between home theater and music, the Statement II's have my full attention.

[verderame]

At the beginning of 2014 I started to build my full statements, I have not yet finished but my speakers sound for several months now, I like it so much that I can not find the courage to disassemble it for painting! Now I see that there is a big news, I use these speakers exclusively for stereo music and I would like to upgrade it but it would mean spending money to buy new drivers and try to sell the old tang bang ... but ... the next year I'm going to build two new speakers for my home theather system, I originally thought about the aviatrix, but maybe is possible to find a good floorstanding speakers project that allows me to use the 4 tang bang?
All suggestions are welcome.

[Jim Holtz]

At the beginning of 2014 I started to build my full statements, I have not yet finished but my speakers sound for several months now, I like it so much that I can not find the courage to disassemble it for painting! Now I see that there is a big news, I use these speakers exclusively for stereo music and I would like to upgrade it but it would mean spending money to buy new drivers and try to sell the old tang bang ... but ... the next year I'm going to build two new speakers for my home theather system, I originally thought about the aviatrix, but maybe is possible to find a good floorstanding speakers project that allows me to use the 4 tang bang?
All suggestions are welcome.

How about the Mini Statements? They fit your criteria exactly with only one pair of 1337's left. The left over pair could be used in a pair of Monitors for another room. There are lots of ways to use drivers. :W

Jim

[verderame]

I would like to build mini statements, but that project are too expensive and...my wife will never allow me to put them in a living room!
And I can't put them too far from the wall too...
In my music room I can do what I want, my only limit is a room size...but in a living room...:nono:

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

If one were to build new Statements II from the ground up, using the currently available non-shielded drivers, would you recommend keeping the original Statement(I) dimensions, or reducing the cabinet volume by 20%, as mentioned in the Statement(I) writeup?

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

If one were to build new Statements II from the ground up, using the currently available non-shielded drivers, would you recommend keeping the original Statement(I) dimensions, or reducing the cabinet volume by 20%, as mentioned in the Statement(I) writeup?

Curt and I looked at the differences and concluded that the differences were not enough to be concerned with. Bass is just as good if not better than original. I would stick with the same dimensions. If the original dimensions are a problem for you space wise, minor adjustments could be made but the simple answer is, build them to the current spec.

Good luck!

Jim

[soundemon]

I notice Meniscus offers the kit for the statement 2s, and for the statement center, but not a statement 2 center?

[Jim Holtz]

I notice Meniscus offers the kit for the statement 2s, and for the statement center, but not a statement 2 center?

The Statements II center is available and very similar to the Finalist center ezxcept for minor crossover changes in the tweeter circuict and of course the NeoCD3.0 in place of the RS28F. Call Mark and he'll hook you up.

Jim

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

This is probably the FAQ #279, but are there any plans for a dome tweeter for the Statements II or CC?
Is there a wall mount version for the CC?

Best regards,
Thanh

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

This is probably the FAQ #279, but are there any plans for a dome tweeter for the Statements II or CC?
Is there a wall mount version for the CC?

Best regards,
Thanh

The Finalist center is identical to the the Statements II center except for the tweeter. The Finalist center uses a RS28F with minor crossover changes in the tweeter circuit. No plans for a dome in the Statements II. Wall mount was not considered for the center.

Jim

[soundemon]

Jim you've probably answered this question a dozen times (and I should already know having built the statements already) but what is the impedance of the statements?

[Jim Holtz]

Jim you've probably answered this question a dozen times (and I should already know having built the statements already) but what is the impedance of the statements?

The Statements impedence would be considered a 6 to 8 ohm load in the commercial world. In reality it dips to 4 ohms a couple times and rises as high as 10 at other frequencies. It pretty a pretty easy load for and good amp. I also recommend a minimum of 100 watts @ 8 ohms for best performance with a 4 ohm capable power supply.

Jim

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

I'm thinking about picking up a few extra resistors in case I need to tune the tweeter level- what values can you recommend (ie. R3041 and/or R3051?)

What's the 2.83V sensitivity of this speaker?

many thanks
Thanh

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

I'm thinking about picking up a few extra resistors in case I need to tune the tweeter level- what values can you recommend (ie. R3041 and/or R3051?)

What's the 2.83V sensitivity of this speaker?

many thanks
Thanh

Hi Thahn,

Curt said the Statements are about 88-89 db. They're actually a pretty easy load to drive.

The resistor question I'll have to defer to Curt. He's the crossover guru and can tell you exactly what he'd recommend. I suggest you send him an email. He doesn't get to the forums very much these days.

Jim

[TEK]

I'm a bit curious, have anyone done a comparison between the statements and the ardents?
Most curious about at the Wavecor Ardent vs Statements II.
I do of course see the difference in both design and driver selection, but what does the people that have been involved in these think that is the main differences in the sound and usage area between these speakers?

[tktran]

Well!

So I've finished my Statements II cabinets.

They are very handsome in terms of proportions. I will be installing all electrical components soon, post some photos and comment on the sound shortly.

I sent an email to Curt re: resistors for tweeter level about a month ago, but so far, no response. I hope he's doing OK.

Jim, a question re: positioning (they are 100lbs each) so bear with me. You say that
"All of the Statements series including the Statements II and Finalists are designed to be positioned 18" or so away from the wall behind and to the sides. The sides can be much further or no sides and they can be positioned anywhere from about 12" out to 4' - 5' from the wall behind them if necessary. 18" is optimal though and where the crossover is designed to sound best."

18" from the front baffle/side cabinets walls to the front/side walls, or from the back of the cabinet to the wall?

[deewan]

18 inches from the back of the cabinet to the wall. And 18 inches from the outer side of the cabinets to the wall. If I remember correctly I found the best sound with 20 inches between the back of the speaker and my wall and about 3 feet from the side walls to the outer cabinet wall. But everyone's room is different so if you have the ability, move them around a little in the beginning to judge and then set them and forget moving them again.

[kevinm]

If I remember correctly I found the best sound with 20 inches between the back of the speaker and my wall and about 3 feet from the side walls to the outer cabinet wall.

This sounds right for me as well. Too far away from the side walls made some stuff mid range frequencies go a little crazy. 20 inches from the back of the speaker to the wall seems to be the sweet spot. My REW measurements showed this placement to the smoothest

[tktran]

Able to post any measurements Kevin?

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Guys,

FWIW, the crossover was developed with 18" clearance from the wall to the back of the speaker and 5' - 6' to the side walls for each speaker. The 18" to the side walls is the room I have available in my listening room. Both work fine. What doesn't work is very close side wall placement, close rear wall placement or having lots of "stuff" (think large entertainment center) between the speakers blocking the mid tunnel back wave.

This isn't a lot different than the requirements of a conventional closed back speaker for best imaging.

HTH

Jim

[kevinm]

Able to post any measurements Kevin?

Yeah, I can grab some and post this weekend. Had some plans to do testing anyways!

What doesn't work is very close side wall placement, close rear wall placement or having lots of "stuff" (think large entertainment center) between the speakers blocking the mid tunnel back wave.

Hey Jim quick question,

Is this in reference to the L&R, center or both?

[Jim Holtz]

Yeah, I can grab some and post this weekend. Had some plans to do testing anyways!



Hey Jim quick question,

Is this in reference to the L&R, center or both?

That would apply only to the L/R mains. You can sit a TV on top of the center if you like. However, I wouldn't push the center back against the wall. You'll run into enough bass reinforcement that male voices could become tubby sounding. Experiment and see what works. The purpose of the center is to anchor the sound to the screen so it's much more flexible for placement and the reason we chose to move away from open back mids on the center. The original center works great but made placement more difficult.

HTH

Jim

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for sharing this design. It turned out beyond my expectations.

How do they sound? Describing sound is like describing food or wine, we really don’t know what it tastes like until we’ve tasted it ourselves. But at least on the Internet we can share pictures:

They sound even better than they look!

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for sharing this design. It turned out beyond my expectations.

How do they sound? Describing sound is like describing food or wine, we really don’t know what it tastes like until we’ve tasted it ourselves. But at least on the Internet we can share pictures:

They sound even better than they look!

Very, very nice! Beautiful craftsmanship! :T

Curt gets all the credit for the sound quality. He's the the brains behind the collaboration. I'm extremely pleased you're enjoying them as much as I do.

Jim

[tktran]

Thanks Jim!

This is my first speaker in the WMTMW layout, first ribbon tweeter, first down firing ports.

If I could give tips to other builders, I should have made plinth/base a little wider and deeper- perhaps 2" per side, and add some mass-loaded cabinet deadening material in the bottom of the cabinets to lower the centre of gravity. For 90% of builders, it probably wouldn't matter, but I have 2 young children and a partner who worries that the kids may push/pull them and they could fall over on them. So she wants me to have them secured to prevent that from happening.

Some kids furniture eg. bookcases/cupboards these days are fixed to the wall, so I've been thinking of how to do that. Maybe a couple of 18" long L brackets to the wall....

Also, cut your holes AFTER you have received your drivers. There's some variation, particularly in the NE123W drivers in the depth (due to integrated foam gasket and terminal block connector). I had to go back to deepen the rebate for 6 drivers, and cut notches for 4...

Very, very nice! Beautiful craftsmanship! :T

Curt gets all the credit for the sound quality. He's the the brains behind the collaboration. I'm extremely pleased you're enjoying them as much as I do.

Jim