My Wavecor Ardent with center build

[TEK]

Hmm, yeah, I see that.
Only Bosh available from Norway was a gkf600, and that was almost the same price as a Makita kit - at the same time the Makita has some desirable featured that the bosh gfk600 don't have, as softstart, variable speed and constant speed under load.
So I went for this kit: http://www.hsstoolshop.co.uk/makita-...x29-6528-p.asp
(from a Norwegian supplier - but I guess the Norwegian text might be a little less friendly to you folks ;-)

[Renron]

Nice buy Tek! Your going to love the soft-start feature. Great on my big Bosch plunge router.
That sharp edge on the grill cover looks nice, but I wonder how long before the fabric tears?
Ron

[TEK]

Nice buy Tek! Your going to love the soft-start feature. Great on my big Bosch plunge router.
That sharp edge on the grill cover looks nice, but I wonder how long before the fabric tears?
Ron

I think time wil show that. If it turns out to be a problem it is easy to both replace the fabric and modify the edge to be less sharp, so it's what I will call a low-risk issue.

[JonMarsh]

That looks like a nice kit of gear from Makita- I bought one of my Colts in a special kit a bit like that- then split up the accessories with the other two. Looking good! :T

[TEK]

I have both grill pegs and magnets available for fastening the grill.
Anyone having some input that might help me choose between the two?

One question that might settle the score: will the magnets be strong enough to hold the grill in place?

[JonMarsh]

If you have something like the small neo magnets you will find they are very strong and secure- at least, that's my experience, especially when you use a magnet on both the cabinet and in the grill panel.

[benthe8track]

Yeah it's easy to make them stick too well, where you'll have to fight with the grill to get it off. We put some thought into how deep to recess the magnets under the veneer on ours.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Renron]

Another vote for magnets

[TEK]

Cool, magnets it is :-)

[TEK]

Hi

Made some progress today.

In the Picture below I'm making a pocket for the felt. I did it by first route out the outer track that is going to be used to hold the grill cloth. Then I routed a new track a little longer in, and finally just used the knife and some sand paper to cut out the excess. Worked better then expected.
I have also find out where I can get the felt to use.


And this is the final result (befor paint, filt and grill cloth of course)



I also mounted the magnets in both the speakers and the grill. It worked out even better than I had hoped for :-)
The grill just *smack* on the speaker, and as long as you remove it by dragging it sideways (instead of trying to drag it directly out) it is easy to remove as well.
I uploaded a little test video here if someone is interested:

http://1drv.ms/1DT0QQS

As this now is as good as ready for paint I'm starting to run out of excuces for not starting to veener these babies... Only thing left, except building the crossover is to install the speaker terminals, but I think I will do that after I have veneered the speakers (but before paint).

[JonMarsh]

Yes, I should have mentioned that, they grills stick like the taint of original sin when you put them on, but the easy way to remove is just slide sideways.

Ah yes, time for veneering. this is when we separate the men from the boys... I'm basically a boy, using the 3M PSA backed veneer made all the difference in the world for me on this second go around- using veneer glue and homemade press clamps as I did for the first ones is definitely a trickier path.

[TEK]

I figured that the best was to just jump into it, so now I'm veneering...

I'm using the iron-on method, meaning that I first apply glue to both the speaker and the veneer, wait to let it try (a bit), put it onto the speaker and then using an iron to fasten the veneer to the speaker. I'm using a foam roller to spread out the glue.
I have done the backside of both speakers now - and it seems to be working out quite nicely so far.
On the back side I have only used one single sheet.
A little trick I found after doing the first sheet. Before applying glue to the veneer, spray the face side of the veneer with water - that will prevent the veneer to curl up when you add the glue. The second sheet, when I did this, was a lot easier to work with then the first sheet :T

Also there are some other small stuff I have had to consider. As mentioned before, this is raw veneer (Walnut burl). There are some holes in the veneer sheets, and those have to be pached before gluing on the veneer. I do this by cut out the hole with this cheep veneer punch-and-patch tool set (around 25-30 usd) and then tape the repared pice in place with blue tape. The larges patches I have had to do is with the 8mm tool, so the holes are not very big.

Really small holes and cracks I leve as they are and fill inn with glue and veneer sawdust after gluing on the veneer.
From what I can see this seems to work out well and the patched holes is nothing that you can spot in the rest of the figures from the purl.

Next I will do the sides - I'm a bit nervouse about how that will go as I will have to bookmatch two sheets togheter to make one that is wide enought.
I will also bookmatch to sheets for the front baffel to get a nice looking pattern.

Some pictures from the process, so that you dont think that I'm just imaging doing this :W
Gluing up



Collecting dust from sanding to use for patching small cracks


Done


A patch, very close up - I don think that you will be able to separate this from the rest of the figures from 1 meter away...

[Steve Manning]

Nice job on the patch ..... was the hole there prior to you gluing the veneer in place? Also do you have a scroll saw. If those are a yes, there is a technique called "Double Bevel Marquetry" that you could possible try as well, I took a one day class from this guy, http://www.djmarks.com/ on it, have not had a chance to try it for myself, don't have a scroll saw. You can do some amazing stuff with the technique and if done right can't tell were the seems are at all. Though I'm not sure if your veneer is too thin for that ...... it's pretty cool none the less. You would essentially remove the entire knot itself and patch in a new piece, that would give you a constant color across the knot.

[Renron]

Whoa, Tek that is beautiful! I can already see what they will look like when your finished. Gorgeous walnut. Not even paper backed??? Man when you go , you go BIG
Great Job Tek!

[JonMarsh]

Doing some very nice work, Tek! :T

Next time I need a good veneering job done with raw veneer, I'll have to see if I can interest you in a vacation in sunny Northern California. No polar bears here, but there are deer and wild turkey roaming in the neighborhood I live in, in Danville! And we have a very friendly young Siberian Husky, by the name of Masha Puppy Riot.



She won't be able to help with the veneering, but she'll check on you frequently and give you lots of encouragement and moral support!

[TEK]

Thanks

Steve:
The holes are there before the veneer is glued in place. I patch them up and fasten the new pice with blue tape before I glue on the veener.
I'm not sure, it might be a better idea to just make the hole round before gluing on the veneer and patch in the replacement afterwards. I did not find any good description of "Double Bevel Marquetry" and I dont have a scroll saw, and the veneer is only 0.5mm thick - so I think I will just stick with my current method.

Renron:
Yes, it's raw walnut burl veneer, no paper backing :E

Jon:
Be careful with what you say, I'm suddently there knocking on your door :B
Nice husky btw.
I get my support from Zita, a Stabyhound :T


Now it's time do to the rest of the speaker. Going to use these 4 sheets for the sides and the baffel. Wish me luck!

[Steve Manning]

TEK ..... I think what your doing will look great, I was curious since I have not used burl veneer, or no paper backing, if having to fix holes was a common issue. I did find a video of a guy that does the Double Bevel Marquetry with veneer and uses a coping saw. It's an interesting watch if nothing else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anu1VniA8X0

[benthe8track]

Good luck TEK! I only used cold press raw burl on the back and that was nerve wracking enough haha.

[TEK]

Thanks for the link Steve.
Thanks benthe8track - I'll need it. I have done on of the sides now - and it was quite hard to get a decent result. I think it worked out kindof ok, but the seem between the jointed veneer sheets did not become as good as I wanted.
The problem is that the veneer is a bit bulky, so it was hard to get a straight joint line. I tried to straighten it by adding moisture, and that helped somewhat - but when iron it on I was not able to get the two pices to join up perfectly - and I got a little crack between them so that the line is visible.
For the next side I will try to do a couple of thing differently. I will try to straighten the veneer a bit more before starting to work with it, I will try to let it be a little bit less wet, and I will try to use a extra trick. When doing the irioning you can add a steel wire just beside the joint line. That give you some extra veneer that will press the joint togheter when you remove the wire.

This is the result for the first side (phu, this is going to take some time...):

As you can see the joint line between the two veneer pieces is quite visible. This is after filling it and sanding over it all, so it will probably not be any better than this :cry:
Guess this will be the side that is pointed towards the wall in the inner corner of the room...

[Horio]

Tek,

I did a pair of speakers recently using flat cut raw walnut veneer using the iron on technique. It worked out really well with the use of veneer softener and some tape on the edges perpendicular to the grain to help prevent splitting (my test piece without softener and tape split very badly). I did not do any book-matched pieces with the raw veneer, as my cabinets were narrow enough (see below) to get away with single pieces.

Image not available

I am very much a veneering novice, but I do wonder if the iron-on method is extra difficult with book-matched veneer. There is certainly some shrinkage that goes on while ironing on the veneer, and it wouldn't be surprise to see the veneer trying to separate at the splice. I wonder if cold press would give you better results for your book-matched pieces. Perhaps some of the other more experienced veneering folks can weigh in on this.

[JonMarsh]

Tek,


I am very much a veneering novice, but I do wonder if the iron-on method is extra difficult with book-matched veener. There is certainly some shrinkage that goes on while ironing on the veneer, and it wouldn't be surprise to see the veneer trying to separate at the splice. I wonder if cold press would give you better results for your book-matched pieces. Perhaps some on the other more experience veneering folks can weigh in on this.

Bingo! Give the gentleman a cigar- (seriously) which is why I did the original Ardents using veneer softener and cold press glue with a home made pressure clamping system- pre-veneering some pieces, doing some just in place the hard way...

Cable clamps and custom fabricated facet faces for clamping for the original Ardent...



It might not be unreasonable to use a mixture of techniques, depending on what is most appropriate for each piece, but I think TEK is beyond that decision point...

[Steve Manning]

Horio, I also fall into the novice category as well, but I have found this guy to have a wealth of information on veneering, http://www.joewoodworker.com/. If you can't find it on his site he seems to be more than willing to respond to questions. He actually lives 5 minutes from my in-laws and I was able to stop by his house/business to pick up an order a few years back ...... very nice, helpful guy.

[Steve Manning]

Like the strap clamps Jon, where did you pick those up?

[TEK]

Hi and thanks for the support.
I have looked around, and it's a known issue to get seems splitting when using the iron-on method.
There is only a problem with joint area. The back that was done in one pice as well as the facet was no problem. The iron on method id also very fast and seems to work well in those cases. I also feel I gave a lot of control and can easely handle issues that arises during the work.

I see 3 options:
1. The gloth hanger trick:
(from joethewoodworker)
"Bookmatching or any other veneer seaming technique can be very difficult with Heat Lock due to veneer shrinkage from the heat of the iron. However, there is a "work-around" for the problem.

To solve the shrinking problem, you can place a straight piece of clothes hanger wire about 2" away from the seam. Then iron down the seam. Next, pull the clothes hanger wire out and iron down the bubble that it left behind. This will force the seam tight. This technique requires a bit of practice but it does work well."

2: late cutting
I have seen some who wait with adusting the pices to each other until all other parts have beein ironed on by adding something under the seem so that it will not be joint, thus eleminating the schrinkage problem

3: use cold press veneering

In general I will try to see if I can get the iron on methods to work. I'm kindof afraid that cold press might open up a whole new can of worms... Testing will occure tonight!

[TEK]

Ok, while I'm pondering on what to do about those joints, other stuff is going quite a bit better.
Iron-on the facet for the side where I have laid veneer, here you also see my very advanced iron :W


That was easy.

Now, oversized stuff has been cutted away and I have sanded done the edges.
OK, the seem in the side of the speaker was not any good. But look at the seem between the side and the facet - that I would say is darn close to perfect :B
Very happy with that.

(sorry for the bad picture quality - I things work out I will get out the real camera when all the finish has been applied)

[Wayman]

Really nice work TEK! Those are going to be gorgeous! I took the "easy" way for my veneer & finish but not the best result.

But I have been listening and I will give another vote for "you won't be disappointed".

Cheers, Wayne

[JonMarsh]

Like the strap clamps Jon, where did you pick those up?

My recollection is those were some Bessey clamps, and I got them at Woodcraft- by order, as the former local store didn't stock them...

[JonMarsh]

Ok, while I'm pondering on what to do about those joints, other stuff is going quite a bit better.
Iron-on the facet for the side where I have laid veneer, here you also see my very advanced iron :W
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24319[/ATTACH]

That was easy.

Now, oversized stuff has been cutted away and I have sanded done the edges.
OK, the seem in the side of the speaker was not any good. But look at the seem between the side and the facet - that I would say is darn close to perfect :B
Very happy with that.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24320[/ATTACH]
(sorry for the bad picture quality - I things work out I will get out the real camera when all the finish has been applied)

Darn close to perfect is a good description in that case! :T

And out here in the American West we have a saying, not to worry about minor flaws you can't see from horseback.. no one else will notice!

[TEK]

Thanks folks

Today I have tried out different methods to join the veneer sheets.
I was unable to get any of the suggested iron-on methods to work.
I have also concluded that I do not think that I will get a cold press method to work. This is because one of my problems is that the veneer will change when I'm adding glue.
So if I first create a perfect join line between two sheets of veneer, and then add glue, the join line will no longer be perfect and there will be splits. This will also be an issue if I use the cold press method.

After trying all the methods I have found I tried some that I invented my self, and I think that I finally found a method that gives me a resonable good result. That's good because I got close to both run out of scrap veneer to test on as well as I almost gave up on the veneer.

The solution that I think might work out well enough, and that I have used on the picture below (not book-matched, so the seems is very visible) is as follows:
- Make the joint line on both pices of veneer
- Add glue to the panel and to both veneer sheets
- Iron-on one of the veneer sheets
- Take a metal ruler and make a new joint cut in the newly ironed veneer. Use a sissle to remove the excess veneer that you cut off
- Add blue tape along the edge, on top of the veener just ironed on
- Iron-on the next sheet of veneer. Let the joint line of this sheet overlap the existing veneer and the blue tape. Complete the iron-on process
- Make a new cut along the previous joint so that any overlapping veneer from the latest sheet is cut away.
- Remove the blue tape
- Do you best to make the joint as perfect as possible, use the iron to press the veneer sheets that was overlapping before down into the first veneer sheet

This picture show the result after joining two scrap pices togheter using this method. It's not perfect, but it is way better than anything I was close to getting using any of the other methods. In this sample I have not filled any cracks with anything. It is not possible to see the substrate trough the seem. I will proceed with the next side using this method.

[Renron]

Tek,
Looking Very good, that's a hard job ahead of you, but your making it look easy. Very nice.
Is that a ski wax iron your using? Have you chosen to use a grain filler before the finish? What finish will you use. I'm excited just watching your progress!
Ron

[TEK]

Tek,
Looking Very good, that's a hard job ahead of you, but your making it look easy. Very nice.
Is that a ski wax iron your using? Have you chosen to use a grain filler before the finish? What finish will you use. I'm excited just watching your progress!
Ron

Hi Ron
Jup, it's a ski wax iron - works great. One thing that is nice about that is that the iron plate has rounded edges, so there is no way that a sharp edge will rip the veneer.

I'm thinking about using this as a filler/sealer, but I have never used it before so I have to test it.

http://www.glasurit.com/uk/glasurit-285-0-voc-transparent-sealer

I see that this is more of a sealer than a filler - so it might be that I should have used some kind of filler before using this. If anyone has any input on the matter I would be very happy to hear.

The I plan to apply several coats of clear of this type:

http://www.glasurit.com/uk/glasurit-923-335-hs-multi-clear-voc

As the final top coat I'm planning on using this for a silky matt finish

http://techinfo.glasurit.com/en_UK/PKW/Chapter_G/GK/923-57_print.pdf

All of this is untested groundfor me, and I have to try it out on some scrap pices before doing the actual work. I will wait until I have finished all veneering as well as the boxes for my living room speakers before I start doing that. Then I will clean up my work area and transform part of it into a lack booth and start testing this stuff out.
Currently there is so much sawdust everywhere that I do not want to start working with paint in the same area.

But any input of the following will be greatly appriciated:
- Should I use a filler before the sealer? If so, what can I use?
- I wonder if I should stain the walnut burl before starting the clear coating process to make the colors "pop" more? Any input on that? Any input on possible products, preferrable awailable in europe/norway
- The satin top coat has some flexibility in it - as it is for clear coating flexible stuff as bumpers - might that be a problem?
(I already have all the paint mentioned above - so I will be using that if there is no clear reasons not to use it)

[dar47]

Something like a General finishes sanding sealer to get everything level before finishing would be great. I would also leave the finish with just the sealer for awhile till that raw veneer is stable. You could see some splitting until that glue holding the raw veneer is completely cured.

[knowledgebass]

Did you look at veneer tape to join your seems? Join the raw pieces to the panel size you need and then cold press them to the substrate piece. The Joe woodworker website has a good demo on how to do it.

[TEK]

Something like a General finishes sanding sealer to get everything level before finishing would be great. I would also leave the finish with just the sealer for awhile till that raw veneer is stable. You could see some splitting until that glue holding the raw veneer is completely cured.

From what I can tell here my sanding sealer should also work as a filler (http://techinfo.glasurit.com/en_UK/P...85-0_print.pdf), so hopefully that will be all I need - even it might be way to little of a filler. I will have to test it before I can now for sure.

Did you look at veneer tape to join your seems? Join the raw pieces to the panel size you need and then cold press them to the substrate piece. The Joe woodworker website has a good demo on how to do it.

No, I have to have the veneer flat if that is going to work - and my is not very flat.
But that is something I'm considering, to make myself some veneer softener and apply that to my veneer. That may also cause it to not get so many cracks and ripples and to be easier to work with, no matter if I'm going to use cold press or iron-on methods.

[Horio]

I'd highly recommend the use of veneer softener. It makes a pretty dramatic difference on the veneer's flexibility, and made a big improvement on my project when ironing on the veneer. My veneer was pretty brittle prior to using softener. Once the veneer dries you can iron it to achieve a nice and flat and flexible piece of veneer ready for gluing.

[TEK]

I'd highly recommend the use of veneer softener. It makes a pretty dramatic difference on the veneer's flexibility, and made a big improvement on my project when ironing on the veneer. My veneer was pretty brittle prior to using softener. Once the veneer dries you can iron it to achieve a nice and flat and flexible piece of veneer ready for gluing.

The problem is to get hold of it, can't find it in norway and shipping cost from abroad is a drag.
I think I will try the DIY formulas.

But do you iron the veneer prior to iron it onto the substrate?
When doing iron-on, do you add glue to both the veneer and the substrate, or only to the substrate?

[BobEllis]

You might be able to use a steam iron on medium to flatten your veneer if not too curly.

I haven't tried it, but homemade veneer softener recipes generally include water, glycerine, alcohol and sometimes plastic resin glue and flour. One example http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com...en-veneer.html.

Thanks for going through this in public. I appreciate the instruction as my veneer days approach.

[TEK]

Thanks, I will try the combination of water and glycerin for the veneer I'm using right now and see if that helps.
If it seems promising I might test that, tape and cold press for the front.

[Horio]

The problem is to get hold of it, can't find it in norway and shipping cost from abroad is a drag.
I think I will try the DIY formulas.

But do you iron the veneer prior to iron it onto the substrate?
When doing iron-on, do you add glue to both the veneer and the substrate, or only to the substrate?

My technique was to first heavily spray the softener onto both sides of the raw veneer and allow it to soak in for maybe 30 min to 1 hour. I would then place a layer of paper towels on a flat surface, place the veener on top, place another layer of paper towels, and then a board with some books on top for weight. This would help keep the veneer from curling up too badly while it dried, and I would let it sit this way overnight. The next day I iron the veneer (medium-low heat setting) to flatten it out and help remove any leftover moisture from the softener. This leaves you with a nice and flat and softened piece of veneer for glue up.

I used the heat-lock brand glue. I would apply it to both the back side of the veneer and the substrate and allow it to fully dry (no longer tacky). Then I'd iron on the veneer starting from one end. I did find that applying blue-tape along the edge perpendicular to the grain helped prevent splitting in my case.

[Steve Manning]

Thanks for going through this in public. I appreciate the instruction as my veneer days approach.

+1 on that ....... it certainly is helpful to know what works and what doesn't before you get in elbow deep. Get your order in for that softener at Joe Woodworker now Bob

[Renron]

Thanks, I will try the combination of water and glycerin for the veneer I'm using right now and see if that helps.
If it seems promising I might test that, tape and cold press for the front.

I have had good luck in the past with this type of softener. Steam and pressure really helps too, a moist towel between the iron and veneer. Go light with moisture in towel.

For filling, I would use a dedicated grain filler, then dewaxed shellac, then what ever CLEAR/GLOSS you like, followed by the same manufacturer's satin or which ever sheen you prefer.

[TEK]

Thanks for the input. My main problem is that transparent grain filler is hard to find here in norway - not sure why.

Have got a little bit more done. Only the top missing on the first speaker.
When it comes to the joints in the veneer I got pritty close on my latest attemt. My experience so far is that it's important to do the right prep-work, and espesially to ensure that the veneer is soft and straight.

The front has to areas with joints. The whole front itself and the little area between the front and the top.
For both areas I ensured that I had well flattened veneer.

For the little area between the front and the top I also ensured that the veneer was quite dry (small pice so I ironed on top of a wood pice - creating kindof a heat press).
I jointed the pices with tape. First perticular to the seem, then along the whole seem.
I used iron-on, but I only applied glue to the speaker - not to the veneer. This was to avoid any deformation in the veneer due to the glue, as well as to not have to add water the other side of the veneer to prepare for the glue.
It seems to work well, and I get a good joint.

For the front, a lot larger area, I ensured that the veneer was flat (but not quite dry), and I taped the joint line the same way as described above.
I used cold-press over night. The veeneer has got a good hold to the speaker and there is no air pocket. I have a little special press method - I will take some picture of it when starting on the next speaker.
But for the rest of the front I think that the veneer was a bit wet when I glued it on, and the joint line between the two veneer sheets splitted a little bit, however a lot less than for any other methods I have used. The split continued to grow a bit quite long time after the pressure was removed, so I think that I should have:
- Let the tape on for a longer periode fo time
- Ensure that the veneer is a bit dryer before it's glue on

The current progress:



I'm wondering a little about a different As ou thing. I'm only have only the top left for one of the speakers.
I'm a bit unsure what I should do. The easy thing to do is to just take a sheet and apply it like I did on the backside.
My other option is to make the top book matched the same way the front baffel is.

Any toughts?

[JonMarsh]

You could do both! On the original Ardent's I did book matched with birdseye maple. On the Wavecors, I thought I was going to keep it simple and just do a single piece, but it turned out I had run short of large enough pieces, and so I'm in the unfortunately situation that one is a solid piece and the other is book matched.

However, the "OK from horseback" thing seems to apply, as no visitors have noticed this or called it out... or perhaps, they were just too kind to bring this to my attention! :W

[Renron]

Most often times, the only ones who notice things like this are we, the builders. We know all the foibles. (flaws)
Psssss, don't tell anyone, they won't find them.
Ron

[Horio]

Tek, I bet that veneer is going to amazing once you throw some finish on there. Can't wait to see how that grain pops!