My Wavecor Ardent with center build

[---k---]

Nice progress. :T

[TEK]

Thanks for the nice words folks ops:


The postman got me some small items today.
After all - one of the major reasons for projects like this is to stack up with more equipment :T


I have added a couple of measurements on the back plate that I was missing.
From what I understand the back plate goes all the way up to the top, and thus should be overcut a little just as the side panels.


But there is something here that I do not understand. From what I figure out - if I follow the drawings I will get two guite large holes in the back/top of the speaker. That can't be the meaning?
Should not the back have been like this?


This picture shows what I'm trying to explain above.

As noted, I think that I can either cut out the excess piece - but that will be a bit challenging as the BB and MDF is already glued togheter, or I will let it be and use some filler to fill the space afterwards.
Any suggestions?

[TEK]

After a lengthy discussion with myself I have concluded that I will leave them as they are and just fill the holes afterwards. As far as I can tell from the 3D drawings this have to been what have been done on the orignals as well - at least if they followed the cad model - ref. the cad drawing in the second post of this thread.

As I was unable to source bamboo at a price I could live with I have to choose a different solution for the baffel.
I'm think about:
BB+BB+MDF+MDF+BB

This means that the baffel will be 36mm BB + 20mm MDF + 18mm BB.
Anyone thinking that is a bad idea?

[TEK]

Ouch... just figured out why I got the "hole".
I have misunderstood the drawing. I tought that the BB sides was to go on the outside of the back panel, but I see now that they are flush with the back panel ops:
That means that I have made the half lap on the back panels to narrow (1/2" instead of 11/16"). OK- that's a bummer, but I think that me and my Feestool saw can fix this 8)
But forget all the rambling on about there being something wrong with the drawings...

[dar47]

You could probably do 1 of the MDF layers as 1/2" if not just a thicker baffle. Just important to be the same or bigger to have some meat left to match the cabinet side after the facets are cut.

[TEK]

The postman came visiting again, stuff starts to arrive now.
(The Xenyx 502 is a replacement for my previous one that was stolen. It will be used measurements with REW).

[TEK]

A short update when it comes to veneer.

It might seem like Walnut Burl is out. I will probably go for American Walnut (Crown cut).
The combination of the price for Walnut Burl, that American Walnut seems to look very nice as well and that American Walnut seems to be possible to source from Europe pushes the decision.

[dar47]

( moved here) Not sure what else you need, Cross over is at the top of the page so it's a matter of equivalent positional values and budget. Jantzen Z-supers should be easy for you to get and can be used in the mid and tweet section or you can go all out with Carity MR in the tweet section. I used Car ESA & Jantzen Z in the mid range and Carity MR in the Tweet. Only had to substitute 1 Mandorf resister as it was out of stock. here my final.

[TEK]

Thanks dar47

This is the one from benthe8track as well:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5ro8qwst7rrhpw/BOM%20as%20built.xlsx?dl=0

I'll have to look into sourcing of this. Parts-express is OK, but I would like to have to make a few orders as possible - so I will have to think a little about where to source the stuff from Madison/Solen from.
Also trying to include the items for my in-kahn's as well in the same order.

[TEK]

Hi

Can anyone give me ha hint on the different between
Solen 3.9uF 400V Polypropylene Capacitor
and
SOLEN Fast-Cap MKP 400 V 3,9 uF
Or are they actually the same?

The price seems to be almost exactly the same. The values as well - as far as I can tell.
Will it make any different if I select one over the other?

And I can add this as well, a different brand.
MUNDORF M-CAP MKP 400 V 3,9 uF
I would guess that all these 3 should be able to be used with the same result. Is that right?

To top it off I could also ask what the different would be if I choosed this insted?
(like 10-20 times the cost of the previous)
MUNDORF M-CAP EVO SI/GO OIL 450 V 3,90 uF

[TEK]

Some progress...
I'm now done with all top, back, sidewalls and internal braces.
Got me some new hole-drills to make the holes in the internal braces (there was a lot of them). That went quite OK.
Used my DIY router table for rounding off all edges as well as the dado cutouts in the braces. Worked as a charm!
Used the hand-held plunge router to create the dato in the center of the back-wall of the speaker. That worked as a charm as well.

Ended the day with a test fit of one of the speakers. Looking quite good I think. Everything goes together quite nicely. I might do some light sanding before the parts is glued up.
The baffle and the bottom/stand still remains. Think that the next step will be to make the parts for the baffle. Not quite sure yet if I will glue it up first and then do the cuts, or first do the cuts and then glue it up.

Some pictures from current result.







(PS: I will still appreciate some comments regarding caps, ref. previous post)

[dar47]

Coming along very nicely, bet there is a lot of pride doing this manually. :T

Both Solen's are the same I think, 1 is for European distribution other North American, 400v is fine. I wouldn't think the M-cap isn't any better then the Solen. I used 2 ESA at the #3 position and Jon used a Janzen Sup for 3.9 and standard for the 22uf. I would think mine and Jon's are a step up, Jon's maybe the best.

[---k---]

Yes, the Solens are the same. If you zoom in on the photo of the ones at PE, you'll see they say "PB-MKP-FC" -FC being Fast Cap. Same photo on Madisound's page that calls them Fast Caps.

I know nothing about the cheaper Mundorf. Considering it is basically the same price, they are probably pretty much the same. If you're going to spend a lot more, then I would defer to one of Jon's choices for fancier caps.

[TEK]

Thanks for your input dar47 and ---k---
I'll have to figure out what crossover components to get soon.

Right now I'm cutting out the baffel.
Cutting 3 layers of 19mm ply in one go x 2 (3 pr side).
Quite useful to be able to tilt the saw 10 degrees ;-)

[TEK]

OK, I'm done cutting the peaces for the baffel for both speakers.
They are made from 4 x 18mm BB each.


I wonder if someone could chime in and give me some advice.
There are two issues I'm wondering about.
1) For a baffle like this. Do you glue up the baffel first and then do the holes for drivers, edges and so on, or do you first make holes for each part and then glue it together afterwards?
(When not using CNC of course ;-)

2) the drivers for the mid and tweeter are not round. What method do you use to get those hole acurate?

[Steve Manning]

OK, I'm done cutting the peaces for the baffel for both speakers.
They are made from 4 x 18mm BB each.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24037[/ATTACH]

I wonder if someone could chime in and give me some advice.
There are two issues I'm wondering about.
1) For a baffle like this. Do you glue up the baffel first and then do the holes for drivers, edges and so on, or do you first make holes for each part and then glue it together afterwards?
(When not using CNC of course ;-)

2) the drivers for the mid and tweeter are not round. What method do you use to get those hole acurate?

When I did my 3 layer baffle for my Jensen's, I clamped and screwed (make sure screw are out of any cut zones) all layers together and then drilled an 1/8" dia. pilot hole (for my jasper circle jig) through all layers in one shot. Then I took it all apart and cut each layer individually. Took a little more time but everything line up perfect when I was done.

[benthe8track]

When I did my 3 layer baffle for my Jensen's, I clamped and screwed (make sure screw are out of any cut zones) all layers together and then drilled an 1/8" dia. pilot hole (for my jasper circle jig) through all layers in one shot. Then I took it all apart and cut each layer individually. Took a little more time but everything line up perfect when I was done.

That's how I'd do it too, would be a lot more difficult to align it otherwise.

[dar47]

That is going to work for locating each woof and tweet hole through each layer but remember not all through cuts are the same for each layer as we open up for driver breathing. I would prep each layer then glue up after each layers holes are cut. You can also use it to locate for the mid but you will probably need to make a router temple guide for both the through holes and driver recess. Router bushing guide set.

Here what I made for my center channel Mid driver cut outs. For driver recess use 1/4" spiral up cutting bit makes perfect corners for the C90 mid.

Image not available

This used first to cut the through cut. You may need to make a few different sizes for this to match the different through cuts for each piece. I used 3/8" hard board (just something the router guide bushing can ride on.

Image not available

Your going to reference from some vertical line made and one side. probably other magical ways of doing it but this is how i did it.

[---k---]

For the baffle, good suggestions above. But in the past, I've successfully glued two 3/4" layers together and cut all at once (well four or six passes). If I had three or four layers, I'd probably still glue it all up. I'd cut to the depth my router could handle and then flip it over and cut from the back. Any off-ness would be small and in the middle of the driver cutout where it can't be seen. I'm scared my skills just aren't there to get everything to fit back perfectly, even with the screws. I've had the problem a couple of times glueing my baffle up where the layers are perfectly aligned and then I tighten the clamps, probably apparently too tight, and the layers slide on each other (probably should use my nail gun). Maybe it is because I plan to do it, but I always end up doing a lot of flush trimming on the baffle.

[TEK]

Thanks for the helpful input.
I'm in now gluing the back part of the speakers. One is done, the other one is in progress.



For now I have assembled the baffels with guide holes the same way I did with the side panels before gluing them together.
I have the following plan for the baffel:
- make a template for the mid
- create the driver holes in the outer layet (if I do something wrongbI might use it as a inside panel.
- create the "tracks" in the inner baffel
- make the rest of the holes (before or after gluing - not sure yet)
- glue the baffel
- make the "avalon baffel edges"

Kindof nerveus about how that whole process will work out

[benthe8track]

Wow you work fast and the box looks great! I say if you aren't nervous you aren't making anything interesting.
I may have missed it but do you have a game plan for the facets yet?

[TEK]

Not sure I would called it a "plan" ops: but I have a couple if options.
I have made facets before - as the two Avalon inspired sub I have buildt have facets.
I used two different methods. For the first I created a sort of support so that the facet was horizontal. I then planed it down using an electric, hand held planer.
The next time i used the festoool saw, tilted it 40 degrees and cut out the facets.

I think I will go for the saw method...

[dar47]

Sounds like a plan, you can gain some confidence by testing your mid and driver cut outs on some scrap MDF to get the tolerances down. Facets are nice to cut in 1 pass but if you don't have the depth of cut you can finish the cuts after a pass through with your nice saw. This is the fun part enjoy. :W

[Wayman]

Looks good TEK!

Lol, how did you put that together without glue running everywhere like I have?

Cheers, Wayne

[TEK]

I guess that comes down to the amount of glue used ;-)
What I do is to first add stripes of glue do the joints (one of the time). Then I use my finger to spred the glue in a thin layer over the whole area of the joint. I also try to insure that there is typicall most glue in the corners so that no to much extra glue will be pressed out when adding pressure with the clamps.
It will usually still be some excess glue - but I either spread it out over the lenght of the joint with my finger or wipe it off using paper.

But if you have problems wit excessive glue it might be the type of glue used. I use Casco wood glue. It's not an expanding glue. If you are using a glue that is expanding while drying it is likely to be a lot of drips.

[Wayman]

I used Titebond yellow glue. Makes a strong joint but is a bit runny.

I didn't want to compromise the joints by using to little glue but clearly that didn't happen. I'll try your finger method.

Anyway nice work. I took Dar's advice and am building mine as a test model. It will be perfectly usable but not a "finished" product.

Cheers, Wayne

[TEK]

Wayne...

Where are you build thread?

[Wayman]

TEK,
I have never done a build thread. I will when I do my final cabinet.

For now, I am using a very different assembly procedure and because I've never attempted anything this complex had little confidence of the outcome.

Seems to be working ok though so when I'm done I will post pics in the main thread.

Cheers, Wayne

[TEK]

I'm waiting for the time, currage and motivation to start working on the baffels.
In the meantime I tought that it was a good idea to use a little break between other things to get the first layer of inside damping of the mid section done. An easy task wll suited to do between other stuff... Not so much:roll:
Each pease have to be cut to size, and there are 5 walls pr speaker - meaning 10 different pieces.
And in oposit to the speskers there is no way to do both speakers in one go:cry:
So, 20 minutes pr side times 10 sides gives approx something over 3 hours to complete the job.
Not the 1/2 hour job I was thinking about ops:

Current progress...





Will have to continue tomorrow (and the day after that).

[Carl V]

True words and sentiments about DIY .
I chuckle when a 'poster' will imply that
DIY is fast Cheap & easy. A weekend Project.:roll:

[TEK]

He, he - no if your into DIY to save money, at least I think you need very selective ways of calculating you cost.
These speakers will cost me more than my B&W 803 that I purchased barly used some years ago.

But of course, if you compare with the 15-25k Avalon speakers - this will come out a great deal cheeper (not calculating laber cost of course) - luckely...
How these will compare to a pair of Avalon Indra, Ascent, Time or Diamond I onestly have no idea.
That will be left to those that have had the options to listen to both to consider...

For me it's all about the craft and creating something myself. The cost is more "what can I afford to use on my hobby", not "what can I save".

[TEK]

Some progress...
Both mid-tone chambers lined.
I did a nockle test between one compleded and one that was not. The resonance frequency shifted quite a bit.
I recorded it - will se if I can get the file uploaded later.

[TEK]

Making slow but steady progress...
Have routed out the inside assembly tracks on the inner baffel. Came together nicely I think...



Next up is the base...

[TEK]

Hi

I'm a bit confused when it comes to the cleats.
How are they supposed to be made? I can't seem to get the measurements to work with 18mm BB as the material for them.
Currently i have made the cleats out of 1 18mm BB, but I now see that they should have been 1", not 18mm. But 18mm + 1/2" MDF does not result in 1". And the drawing say that it should be made from 18mm BB

Currently I have made my cleats from 18mm BB and nothing else, as you can see from the picture below. I actually think that should be OK, but it seems to be a bit less solid than the solution in the drawing.



Maybe I should cut out and add another layer to make it more solid? :unsure:

[JonMarsh]

This is looking pretty good to me- keep in mind, you have the weight of the cabinet resting on the base.

[dar47]

The cleat you have at the top or just under the front baffle should have been at the bottom or on the back of the cab. The thick front baffle has the surface for the base inserts. No matter as long as you have room to put the xover boards in through the bottom if that's what your doing.

[TEK]

The front is extra compared to the drawing - I'm aware of that.
I added it because one of the cabinets have a tendency to be about 2mm more narrow in the front than the back.
Adding the front cleat straightens that.
It would have been very difficult to get the front glued on correctly (I coult if course used a temporary cleat, but it would very easy have got stuck when gluing the baffel on to the cabinet.

I'm still not quite sure how the cleats is ment to be in the original design, but as Jon states, there are not much forces affecting this so I guess I should be ok.
I'll see - if I feel like it I might add a layer of MDF as well - just for the fun of it... Will have to check the length of scruves available...

[benthe8track]

We used two layers of bb.
Not the best pic but you may be able to get the idea.

[TEK]

Thanks!
What did you use to fasten the screws into the cabinets?
I was thinking about using something like these:

http://www.woodpeck.com/media/main_tnut.jpg

But I don't see how to do that for the formist screw (the one in the baffel)

[Face]

Thanks!
What did you use to fasten the screws into the cabinets?
I was thinking about using something like these:

http://www.woodpeck.com/media/main_tnut.jpg

But I don't see how to do that for the formist screw (the one in the baffel)

Those are a pita to use and IMO, highly unnecessary with baltic birch.

[TEK]

Those are a pita to use and IMO, highly unnecessary with baltic birch.

You think it would be sufficient to just use wooden screws fastened directly into the baltic birch?

[JonMarsh]

T-nuts are a PITA in high density wood products; standard ply they work OK, but I don't know about bb ply. My preference runs to a more complicated setup, which can be obtained from places like Woodcraft, with threaded brass inserts, and a special tool to install them.



You can get them up to 1/4-20 or 1/4-24. That's what I used in my Ardents. Possibly something like this is available in Europe for metric threads? I paired them with furniture bolts with flat socket heads that you can get even at stores like Home Depot (but of course, also at Woodcraft and Rockler).

[dar47]

Wood screws would be fine, the inserts and bolts facilitated equal compression of the base gasket and added the ability to remove the base to get at the xover multiple times if needed without any screw stripping. Remember this is a Mech. Eng. solution for base and gasket attachment. it works well but you know "different strokes for different folks".

[benthe8track]

Thanks!
What did you use to fasten the screws into the cabinets?
I was thinking about using something like these:

http://www.woodpeck.com/media/main_tnut.jpg

But I don't see how to do that for the formist screw (the one in the baffel)

We used these, the highest strength inserts I could find. With socket head cap screws it let us put a ton of force on the gasket with no concern.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-inserts/=wxoue2

[TEK]

Thanks for the input.
I think I will just use wooden screws. I'm quite sure it will be more than enough fource.
And if it shows that I have to take the base on and off many times, so that the wood screws is not good enough, there is easy access and I can just add threaded inserts when the need shows itself

After several bad experiences with t-nuts and drilled wholes not lining up perfectly, I will probably also use wooden screws to fasten the elements.
BB is not as hard as bamboo, but still a lot harder than MDF, and probably more than hard enoug to hold the elements (as well as the base)