Help for 3way Floorstanding using Dayton RS series

**cjd** · 29 December 2013, 21:37 Sunday

You will definitely need a custom crossover.

TMW, check out the In-Khan-neato - it might be just the ticket. There is an in-wall version and an in-room version designed.

If you want something a little bigger that pairs up, check out the Garnacha (though it uses the RS180-8) - center-wise, Khan-center.

**RSJ** · 29 December 2013, 22:31 Sunday

Originally posted by cjd

If you want something a little bigger that pairs up, check out the Garnacha (though it uses the RS180-8) - center-wise, Khan-center.

That would be awesome. Little bigger is always good.

But there is one problem though that i have RS180 which are 4ohm version but this one uses 8ohm version.How to come over this?
You think that car amp would be fine?

**cjd** · 29 December 2013, 22:36 Sunday

Originally posted by RSJ

That would be awesome. Little bigger is always good.

But there is one problem though that i have RS180 which are 4ohm version but this one uses 8ohm version.How to come over this?
You think that car amp would be fine?

You don't. You either use the In-khan or you get the RS180-8. Or find a different design.

The in-wall design I use in my HT uses the RS180-4, but it needs to be in-wall.

**RSJ** · 30 December 2013, 00:06 Monday

oops...then please suggest me a different design.

Something similar to Garnacha!!:P

Edit-Anyone please??

**RSJ** · 31 December 2013, 22:11 Tuesday

alrite...so if I go ahead with Garnacha, how would i power it, I mean will my JL Audio E6450 be enough?

**RSJ** · 06 January 2014, 15:41 Monday

I got my hands on Marantz 6005 and I can use this to power my set up.And now I have changed my plans from just tower speakers to full 5.1 set up which can be powered by receiver.Upgrades can happen later but here's my plan for now.

1.Front speakers-This will remain same what cjd suggested above which is In-Khan-neatos. But the crossover for stand mounted is different than in-wall as shown in the pics. I can not make out the changes in crossover components and need help here. Receiver has the option of bi-amping front L and R speakers and I would go for it to give more power to neatos.

2.Center channel-This Khan center is good but if possible can someone suggest me bit cheaper center channel and lighter also(with less no. of drivers) due to weight limit of baggage.

3.Surround sound-How about this kit which I can built both surround sound speakers for under $180? Any other cheaper kit or having full range speaker with few crossover components?

4.Subwoofer.I am not sure about which subwoofer I will use but I do have two 10" Infinty 1040 subs and I am thinking of powering these with this amplifier using this power supply. If I have to buy one amp then I need a amp which is also 2ohm stable. this power supply+amp is also lighter option than buying a dedicated sub amp which are usually heavy, at least 20lbs. Later these two subs will be replaced with better home sub once budget permits.

Last I would be leaving on 24rth this month and would need everything by 20th so that I can check few items if possible. So I have to order all this between 10-12th to have some extra days to be on the safer side. Cabinets and rest of stuff I can discuss here when I reach my home.

**RSJ** · 07 January 2014, 11:44 Tuesday

Finally I decided to explore myself as it seems fellow members are somewhat busy.

However it would be nice if someone can comment on my following set up.

Front Tower- This Statement Monitor kit uses RS 180-4 which will solve my problem. I was not able to find crossover for stand mounted In-Khan-Neatos so decided to go for statement monitor as front tower. Anyone has listened to both? BTW tower will kept close to the wall, probably 6-12" away.

Center Channel- Center channel is very important for movies so will need better kit than I mentioned in the previous post so decided to go for this Swope center. Khan-center would be too much on my receiver

Surround sound- Would have loved to go for Swope MTM but I guess Swope TM would be enough.

Comments are welcome!

**cjd** · 07 January 2014, 23:31 Tuesday

Too close to the wall on the statement monitors (I think?), and the voice matching will be ... Not great with the swope. Both are great builds, each different.

Crossover is there on my site. The build: http://www.divine-audio.com/in-khan-neatos/
The crossover itself:

http://www.divine-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MTW_Surround_FullBSC.png

**RSJ** · 08 January 2014, 01:25 Wednesday

Then what would you recommend with either neatos or statement monitors, both CC and SS?

The khan-center is 3ohm design so dont you think it will be too much load on marantz 6005?

And lastly do you have stand mounted version's crossover BOM like this one (for in-wall version) ? That will make life lot easier for a noob like me.

**TEK** · 08 January 2014, 02:43 Wednesday

Your center should be voiced equal to your mains. If thats not archivabel you would be better off without it.
I do not have a exact design to suggest for you, but I would have found something as equal to the mains as possibel, but not nessesarly something that goas as low. By crossing them over a bit higher you could let the sub handle the heavy lifting.
I have an SR7005 and an external amp for my mains.
I also belive that you could use your two extra channels (your 6005 is has 7 amp channels, but you seem to go with a 5 channel setup) and pass them over to your mains using bi-amping. I think that is possible to set up with the SR6005 - but you have to verify it yourself. Compared to having an extra amp for your mains this will give a higher total load on your receiver, but you could start off there and eveluate the need for an extra amp after testing this out.
You could of course also take it all the way and add a 3-channel external amp and use that for your mains as well as your center :-)

**RSJ** · 08 January 2014, 04:26 Wednesday

I can always bi-amp mains using spare channels of 6005 if their (mains) design permit me but I do not know if I can. How can I add that option to mains?
Extra amp is not an option as of now due to budget constraints.However I do have spare JL 6450 car amp collecting dust.

Due to load issues of khan-center which I was planning to use with neatos, I'm leaning more towards statement center and statement monitor.

And regarding the monitors being too close to wall, Jim has said here that these can be used 12" from the wall. So thats good news for.
However I would still prefer neatos because of being cheaper and probably better looking but I can not drive voice matched khan-center from receiver due to load issues. So I guess I just have to wait till tomorrow if someone can suggest me voice matched center channel for neatos.

**cjd** · 08 January 2014, 10:31 Wednesday

3ohm is likely fine, or you'll have issues with all the designs you're looking at.

The MTM I did is also a good match as a center.

Sorry no BOM just yet, but we can double check one if you post it.

**RSJ** · 08 January 2014, 22:15 Wednesday

Originally posted by cjd

3ohm is likely fine, or you'll have issues with all the designs you're looking at.

The MTM I did is also a good match as a center.

Sorry no BOM just yet, but we can double check one if you post it.

1.If you say so then I'm fine too with 3ohm.

2.Which MTM you are suggesting, this one? If yes then it will be sealed so anything different for crossover components? It will be on cabinet like this and CC will be in front of TV which will be lifted up.Mains on the sides with this cabinet close the wall so mains will be close to the wall as well.

3.Will ask you about it if I do not understand it.

So final it is, Neatos as mains MTM/khancenter as CC and possibly TriTrix as surround?

**RSJ** · 12 January 2014, 00:11 Sunday

Originally posted by cjd

The MTM I did is also a good match as a center.

Sorry no BOM just yet, but we can double check one if you post it.

I'm posting the poorly edited picture of your crossover for stand mounted In-Khan Neatos with the corresponding components.Please have a look if there is any problem which I think there will be.

1.dayton DMPC 10uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
2.dayton DMPC 16uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
3.Eagle 2.2ohm
4..Eagle 6ohm
5.jantzen 0.22mh 18AWG air core Inductor
6.Madisound 1mH 19AWG air core Inductor
7.Madisound .4mH 19AWG air core Inductor
8.dayton DMPC 34uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
9.Eagle 8ohm
10.Madisound 3mH 19AWG air core Inductor
11.Madisound .33mH 19AWG air core Inductor
12.dayton DMPC 2.000uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
13.dayton DMPC 2.500uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
14.dayton DMPC 10.00uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
15.Jantzen 5.mH 20AWG Iron core Inductor
16.dayton DMPC 6.8uf 250v polypropylene capacitor
17.Eagle 10ohm
18.Eagle 10ohm
19.80uF 100v Non-polarized capacitor

These eagle resistors are 10w, non-inductive or what and I guess not available with madisound? What counterpart can be had from PE?

**RSJ** · 12 January 2014, 01:45 Sunday

I have tried to copy the components from in-wall crossover to stand mounted crossover in the list below.Bold will be used in series and underlined components are available with madisound.

1.dayton DMPC 10uf 250v polypropylene capacitor-----Part # 027-428
2.dayton DMPC 16uf 250v polypropylene capacitor----Part #027-421 + 027-430
3.Eagle 2.2 ohm------alternative Part # 004 1.2 + 004-1
4.Eagle 6 ohm........alternative Part # 004-06
5.jantzen 0.22mh 18AWG air core Inductor---Part # 255-212
6.Madisound 1mH 19AWG air core Inductor....Product ID 1.0mHl
7.Madisound .4mH 19AWG air core Inductor---Product ID .4mhl
8.dayton DMPC 34uf 250v polypropylene capacitor----Part # 027-441 + 027-410
9.Eagle 8ohm------alternative 004-8
10.Madisound 3mH 19AWG air core Inductor Product ID : 3.0mhl
11.Madisound .33mH 19AWG air core Inductor-----Product ID .33mhl
12.dayton DMPC 2.000uf 250v polypropylene capacitor---Part # 027-414
13.dayton DMPC 2.500uf 250v polypropylene capacitor----Part # 027-410 + 027-412
14.dayton DMPC 10.00uf 250v polypropylene capacitor----Part # 027-428
15.Jantzen 5.mH 20AWG Iron core Inductor----Part # 255-060
16.dayton DMPC 6.8uf 250v polypropylene capacitor-----Part # 027-424
17.Eagle 10 ohm----alternative Part # 004-10
18.Eagle 10 ohm----alternative Part # 004-10
19.85uF 100v Non-polarized capacitor-----Part # 027-356 + 027-346

**cjd** · 12 January 2014, 12:09 Sunday

The parts list looks good.

You can use sand-cast (such as Dayton non-inductive) or Mills resistors - it seems Madisound may have the Mundorf MOX line as its Eagle replacement? I'm not sure if their sand-cast resistors are non-inductive.

I would recommend running two 16ohm resistors in parallel (for an 8ohm impedance and double the power handling) on the series resistor on the mid - if the Madisound sand-cast are NI you could just go with a 25W here.

Bennic caps (Madisound) are usable in place of the base Dayton caps if you're wanting to try sourcing this from one place - or Jantzen 18/20ga air core where you have Madisound air core. And of course you can always step into more expensive caps if that is something you feel like doing.

C

**RSJ** · 12 January 2014, 17:02 Sunday

Bennic caps (Madisound) are usable in place of the base Dayton caps if you're wanting to try sourcing this from one place - or Jantzen 18/20ga air core where you have Madisound air core. And of course you can always step into more expensive caps if that is something you feel like doing.

I would prefer to buy from PE as I am in touch with them.Found the below alternative as well from them.

10.Madisound 3mH 19AWG air core Inductor ------------------------------Product ID : 3.0mhl
or
ERSE 3.0mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor------------------------------Part # 266-838

11.Madisound .33mH 19AWG air core Inductor----------------------------Product ID .33mhl
or
Jantzen 0.33mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor-------------------------------Part # 255-220

6.Madisound 1mH 19AWG air core Inductor.------------------------------Product ID 1.0mHl
or
Jantzen 1.0mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor--------------------------------Part # 255-048

7.Madisound .4mH 19AWG air core Inductor-----------------------------Product ID .4mhl
or
Jantzen 0.40mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor------------------------------Part # 255-032

You can use sand-cast (such as Dayton non-inductive) or Mills resistors - it seems Madisound may have the Mundorf MOX line as its Eagle replacement? I'm not sure if their sand-cast resistors are non-inductive.

Buying only from pe so not considering Mundorf MOX line.

I would recommend running two 16ohm resistors in parallel (for an 8ohm impedance and double the power handling) on the series resistor on the mid - if the Madisound sand-cast are NI you could just go with a 25W here.

I already found alternative components for eagle on pe as given below and these are 10W. What do you mean by 25W?
3.Eagle 2.2 ohm------alternative Part # 004 1.2 + 004-1
4.Eagle 6 ohm........alternative Part # 004-06

Please have a final look so that i will order it by tomorrow.And big thanks for your time cjd!

**cjd** · 12 January 2014, 19:58 Sunday

You could use a 2 or 2.4ohm resistor as well I think, but both are out of stock in the sand-cast line. You can get a Mills still (005-2) - or wire the 1.0 and 1.2 in series as you have noted.

25W is 25 watt (vs 10 watt) - more power handling. Maybe it's overkill to worry about the series resistor on the mid, but I do (actually, both might benefit, to be honest.)

Everything looks good.

**RSJ** · 12 January 2014, 20:59 Sunday

Originally posted by cjd

You could use a 2 or 2.4ohm resistor as well I think, but both are out of stock in the sand-cast line. You can get a Mills still (005-2) - or wire the 1.0 and 1.2 in series as you have noted.

25W is 25 watt (vs 10 watt) - more power handling. Maybe it's overkill to worry about the series resistor on the mid, but I do (actually, both might benefit, to be honest.)

Everything looks good.

Ok I got it. All the resistors are 10W. You want me to change all to 25W or just the Eagle 2.2ohm/004-1.2+004-1 (no.3 on picture)?
Anyway only 10 or 12 W resistors are available on pe here except couple of 25W,one of these is though 10ohm here. If all resistors should be 25W then only 10ohm 25W can be used and is it advisable to use some resistors 25W and other 10W? Sorry for my ignorance regarding components.

I might not take Marantz 6005 back to India as its very heavy.So which option would you recommend, powering speakers with 320-335 + 320-316 or car amplifier JL Audio E6450 using 12v power supply?

**cjd** · 12 January 2014, 22:05 Sunday

The only resistors I'd worry about having higher power handling are the pad resistors on the mid. 8ohm and 10ohm. 9 and 17 in your list. You can get 20W by using two resistors - it's easiest to use them in parallel, so two 16ohm in parallel for 8ohm, two 20's for 10ohm.

Otherwise, 10W is plenty.

You'll need a very substantial 12v power supply given the 60A fuse recommendation, but if you can power it adequately it should work well enough. It won't do many other things the Marantz can do, but I hear you on the weight. Can you slow-boat or otherwise ship it at anything close to reasonable cost?

I've only had movies shipped from India, so I'm not sure. We usually do about 20 at a pop for $30 shipping from somewhere near Delhi I think, so I know it's not cheap but not rediculously expensive either, especially when it comes to getting something you can't get any other way. It only takes ~4 days to get here too - pretty nice.

**RSJ** · 13 January 2014, 00:33 Monday

Ok got it. Thanks for explaining in detail to a noob like me. That was for Khan-center. Now do i change anything with Abouriou's crossover component which I am using as center channel. I am using Dayton RS28F here instead of Seas. oh BTW if use RS28A do I need to change any component, I prefer silk over aluminium?

I have also have quite a few smaller items shipped successfully from here and Taiwan/HK/China to India but all were 5-10$. This thing is heavy and expensive, custom and shipping will be close to $500-600 and risk of getting damaged or lost is high too for such item. There is always someone visiting states so he might be helpful. Meantime I can use above mentioned combo to power it till I get my Marantz

**RSJ** · 13 January 2014, 12:09 Monday

(2) 18ga .25mH inductors (CC crossover)

This item is not available. So which is good replacement .25mH 20ga or .27mH 18ga?

And How can I make mains bi-amp capable?

Edit-Ordered ERSE 0.27mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor (266-810).

**cjd** · 15 January 2014, 12:16 Wednesday

To bi-amp run the woofer crossover to one set of terminals and the mid and tweet to a second. In my experience it does nothing unless you have totally separate amps so the power supply is different. Even then, it simply allows a less adequate amp for the mid/tweet (say a low wattage tube amp) if that is for some reason desirable.

Either inductor is OK. I'd probably go with the 20ga .25mH but a .27mH is fine. Within the common 10% spec for most components anyway.

**RSJ** · 16 January 2014, 18:40 Thursday

^Thanks..Will confirm again when I get back to home. Crossover stuff and tweeters have been received by me but having some paypal troubles regarding RS150-8, Tritrix kit and few accessories. Hopefully this will be sorted out in next couple of days.

**RSJ** · 26 January 2020, 04:45 Sunday

Hi guys
I am back. To cut the long story short I was extremely occupied since then and now I am building my dream HT setup. Now I have bought SR6013 and may also buy external multi channel amp.

During the last 6 years I have forgotten few things. One of which is what are those + and - sign denote written on drivers on post 15? Two drivers have + signs which means connection to amp + but but I am confused about the - sign on 3rd driver which is RS180?
All the crossovers are already built except this one.

Thanks in advance.

**Dave Bullet** · 26 January 2020, 15:17 Sunday

Originally posted by RSJ

Hi guys
I am back. To cut the long story short I was extremely occupied since then and now I am building my dream HT setup. Now I have bought SR6013 and may also buy external multi channel amp.

During the last 6 years I have forgotten few things. One of which is what are those + and - sign denote written on drivers on post 15? Two drivers have + signs which means connection to amp + but but I am confused about the - sign on 3rd driver which is RS180?
All the crossovers are already built except this one.

Thanks in advance.

That's a crossover in SpeakerWorkshop. the (-) denotes flipping the polarity of the driver. In other words - your "+" (positive) from the amp goes via the crossover to the negative (-) terminal on the driver. this is perfectly normal for 2nd order crossovers where the driver phase is 180 degrees out between the drivers, so flipping polarity of one of the drivers gets them back in phase through the crossover region.

**Dave Bullet** · 26 January 2020, 15:22 Sunday

PS: If this were me, I wouldn't bother doing a 3 way with a single RS180, when you already have an RS150 covering mid-duty. Especially for a crossover with 19 components. Instead I would go for a pair of 8" drivers, ported, keep the mid and tweeter and reduce the padding as required. Of course you would need to redesign the crossover completely and need to measure. Unless you are using these nearfield or have a subwoofer, the bass from a single RS180 in a moderate room will be lacking.

**RSJ** · 27 January 2020, 10:51 Monday

Originally posted by Dave Bullet

That's a crossover in SpeakerWorkshop. the (-) denotes flipping the polarity of the driver. In other words - your "+" (positive) from the amp goes via the crossover to the negative (-) terminal on the driver. this is perfectly normal for 2nd order crossovers where the driver phase is 180 degrees out between the drivers, so flipping polarity of one of the drivers gets them back in phase through the crossover region.

Thanks a lot Dave.

I do not have the option of two RS180 now so will go as per previous posts. Anyway I will be adding couple of 10" subwoofers.

**RSJ** · 27 January 2020, 15:28 Monday

BTW I tested In Khan neatos with my Marantz SR603 on my test bench and RS150-8 looked as if it is there just to add numbers.

It was same on both side. I had to bring my ear only few mm away from RS150 to see if it was working. But same driver in Abouriou was very much alive and kicking hard.

I tested new 6013 in 2.0 and 2.1 configuration with In Khan and Abourioiu as CC. What could be the reason?

**RSJ** · 25 March 2020, 01:52 Wednesday

Installed wrong part

Originally posted by RSJ

I would prefer to buy from PE as I am in touch with them.Found the below alternative as well from them.

7.Madisound .4mH 19AWG air core Inductor-----------------------------Product ID .4mhl
or
Jantzen 0.40mH 20 AWG Air Core Inductor------------------------------Part #

I think I have found the problem of midrange having almost no sound output.

In stead of part 255-030 which is .40mH, I had ordered 255-232 which is .56mH.
So there is difference of almost 50%.

Could it be the reason?

I have already ordered 255-030 but it will take at least 3 weeks to arrive as there is complete lockdown in India till 14th April.

**technodanvan** · 25 March 2020, 09:54 Wednesday

Originally posted by RSJ

BTW I tested In Khan neatos with my Marantz SR603 on my test bench and RS150-8 looked as if it is there just to add numbers.

It was same on both side. I had to bring my ear only few mm away from RS150 to see if it was working. But same driver in Abouriou was very much alive and kicking hard.

I tested new 6013 in 2.0 and 2.1 configuration with In Khan and Abourioiu as CC. What could be the reason?

Were you just playing music through them or test tones?

**RSJ** · 26 March 2020, 13:14 Thursday

I was playing music.