Swopes 3-way Listening Impressions

[rjrauso]

I just finished retro-fitting an old set of towers a friend and I built years ago using random speaker parts and crossovers built by Madisound. Once he got married and started having kids, the towers were left with me. The cabinets were built from 1” mdf with a 2” front baffle that was removable so I didn’t want to throw them away. I kept them waiting to refurbish them someday.

A couple months ago I noticed a kit from Meniscus named the Swope 3-way. The dimensions for the cabinet were almost a perfect fit and they were cheap. I re-did the front baffle and added in more bracing to take up some more volume and now they are structurally done! I went with the SB tweeter upgrade because I wanted the best clarity for music listening.

I’ve been listening to them on my 2 channel setup that housed an old pair of Infinity Monitor IIa’s that I can’t seem to get rid of… Compared to the Infinity’s the Swopes are in fact a little bit more revealing on many of my music collection but at the same time they are much more forward sounding. They don’t have near the low-end bass which was to be expected since they only house 2 - 6” drivers but they also don’t have that very top end airiness to them either. It’s a tough call but I think once my pair of 12” subs are done, I’m going to keep the Swopes and move the old Infinity’s into my bedroom. Not sure yet, the SB tweeters can be a bit shrill sometimes so I’m not sure if some of my music is just poorly recorded or if the tweeter needs to be padded a bit more. The midrange is also louder than what I’m used to as well but I like it. Overall the Swopes sound a lot like an old pair of Boston Accoustic t-1000’s I used to own with a little more clarity in the mids. Very neutral speaker!

I’ll post pictures once the cabinets are finished!

[dar47]

Interesting comments on the sound, I have built the MTM's and center for my 85 year old mother and like them vary much.

My son is getting married next May and part of the proceedings is having a Halloween "wedding Social", a unique event where we live. You rent a hall, sale tickets to get in, have a cash bar and sale tickets for a silent auction to raise money for the couple. You provide music for dance, food and prizes for the auction. The silent actions are quite elaborate these days with some nice prizes which usually raise the most money. I'm thinking of building the Swoop 3-ways, the small MT's and a center for the Auction to go with a receiver and panel for a nice setup for some lucky winner.

I did the MTM's and centre with the Dayton tweet's and found them clear and neutral. I agree mids are their strength and they perform well over their price point. The center is the best in this line. I'll probably use the Dayton's again to conserve on cost for this new build.

So yes, please share some pics of your build.

[JonMarsh]

Of course, you know the usual question- any measurements?

One thing I personally find is that unless a system has really clean SOTA source components, "flat" response is usually not subjectively the way to do- a slight downtilt of the top end often helps- I'd suggest seeing how the original design was voiced (I've heard of it, but not familiar with it), and increasing a series resistor with the tweeter might be just the ticket. The Swope MTM is a little bit difficult to drive around 2 kHz, where the crossover frequency is, due to the phase angle and impedance, so maybe try another amp? With the HiVi M series drivers it's important to roll them off steep enough so that the upper resonance doesn't become a problem; they're using a basic trap filter to deal with that, so they should be OK.

Nothing looks out of place performance wise, though I'm not fond of getting to a 4th order network by crossing right where the driver rolls off with a second order- that means it's being pushed a bit in the low end. But this is a very budget system, not a NatalieP. I wish the PDF for the kit had better resolution on the plots- can't read the numbers no matter how you zoom or print it- that's just sloppy preparation of the files.

[cjd]

Paul may have better info on his site, but I'm too lazy to go compare.

I am, however, surprised by the observations on sound - Paul's signature, to my ear, is the opposite: nicely thumpy on the low end for the rockers, not really forward, but well balanced overall (at least compared to what I tend to do, which often ends up analytical).

Makes me suspect a wiring bug - phase problems on the woofers being the primary suspect at the moment. Getting those out of phase will kill bottom end and cause undue emphasis on the midrange...

C

[---k---]

+1. It doesn't sound like one of Paul's designs to me. You might have one of your drivers polarity wrong or something in the crossover. Double check everything.
Also, what did you do with the port. Did you replace the old one with the one from the kit? Try plugging the port just to see what happens, better or worse.

And from your post, I couldn't tell if you were happy or not.

[rjrauso]

My system is an HTPC and a Ceton Echo connected via HDMI < Yamaha rx-v3900 as the pre-amp < Adcom gfa-555-II powering the towers which should be more than adequate.

Don't get me wrong, these things DO have nice bass until around 38hz which is where I tuned them - they just don't hold a candle to my Infinity's (which are measured down to 20hz). I'm a former, recovering basshead and listen to plenty of music that digs down this far and the Swopes just can't reproduce these frequencies. Now I did use some extra thick recycled blue jeans insulation for the inside walls which was around 4” thick… maybe I’m losing a little bit from that? The enclosure was around 0.3 cubic ft bigger so the port was shortened to accommodate, the wiring is good, checked that numerous times.

The tweeter on the other hand is the only thing that I wonder about right now. I don’t mind how it sounds on music that is recorded well, it’s just a bit shrill on some recordings. I think jazz, classical, pop and modern music sound fantastic. It’s the hard rock that doesn’t. I have some well recorded Metallica, Rage Against the Machine to name a few and it just sounds ok, again very bright and forward. A couple of my Arcade Fire albums are a bit shrill as well. Am I being too picky? Or is the clarity of the tweeter?

[rjrauso]

I'm also a bit confused about the "NatalieP" comment. I've heard the SB tweeter was top notch and the HiVi drivers have better midrange and bass response then the Daytons. With the Nat being a 2-way and the Swope being a 3, is the crossover not adequate on the Swopes? Other then that, the Swope 3-ways should be head over heals better then the Nat or any dayton mtm configuration.

[cjd]

Ahh, so you're talking real bass not the sissy stuff most people go for.

Is it easy to try removing some of that insulation? That can definitely lean out bass a lot - you may also prefer tuning slightly higher for a little more kick (but of course less extension.)

The HiVi don't have better bass, that I know of - the RS180 is quite clean, especially on the bottom where it's clearly superior to the HiVi in distortion. The HiVi is also a very good driver and is a bit more forgiving in the midrange but not without is trouble spots. It is possible some of those trouble spots are related to the forward sound you're observing.

It's very tough to know from afar if everything is right and your ear is just used to a different sound, or if a simple and common wiring mistake (I've done it more times than I can count) causing out-of-phase woofers may be in play, or ... so we're trying to be helpful, point out possibilities, but of course that can come across all wrong.

Paul's designs are generally very well received, but your description is definitely out of character.

If it were one of my designs (or Jon's, I suspect...) I would not be surprised if you discovered it to be entirely too unforgiving on less than ideal recordings - I usually send people worried about this to Paul's designs, in fact!

That said, the Swope would definitely not be head-over-heels better than the NatP or other Dayton MTM (though no doubt "Dayton MTM is generalized enough that it will include designs the Swope is clearly superior to) - there are places it will do better, being a 3-way, (especially with the tweeter upgrade, which takes the design from a decent tweeter to a very good tweeter) but... it's hard to tell. I don't think I've heard the 3-way Swope.

Whether Jon finds the crossover inadequate or not doesn't necessarily mean it is - just that HE wouldn't have designed it that way - as I noted, the HiVi has some upper range issues (which Jon also noted he suspects will be reasonably well dealt with). As a designer that seems to follow a similar strategy, I've often noted the same thing about Paul's designs - LOOKING at the diagrams, I would readily state it's not how I would do it. On the flip side, the results are always consistently good (but also not quite what I would go for.)

It won't take you much work to find people that feel Jon (or Troels or I) are overcomplicating crossover design - it is simply a different approach.

You have an excellent and well designed pair of speakers and we're just trying to guess at things to check, just in case. Also, do consider Jon's suggestion of bumping the series resistor on the tweeter to alternative values.

C

[rjrauso]

Well hopefully I’m not coming across as being rude, I appreciate all the responses. I’m just an amature when it comes to building speakers, you are all the experts I’ve literally built hundreds of subwoofers so I’ve had to itch to “step it up” for a long time now.

I had the cross-overs built by Meniscus (I could barley read the x-over diagram pdf’s). They sent me a hook up scheme to make sure they are properly wired and basically all I had to do was wire each section’s (tweet,mid,woofers) crossover inputs in parallel. Super easy stuff… after looking at the diagram again I notice that the tweet and mid section are out of phase from each other. I thought the way Meniscus wired the crossovers would make it so I didn’t have to worry about that (their diagram said not to do that)… I can always try switching the +/- tweet and mid sections around tomorrow when I find time. I can also shave off some of the insulation once I take them back apart to finish them!

This also could just very well be that my ears aren’t used to the sound of the speakers. I think overall they sound great! I’ve auditioned countless speakers itching to upgrade my Infinity’s but the only ones I felt that competed well were all around 3-4 grand - too much for me. A place down the street from me sells B&W’s and I always thought they sounded too bright for my taste’s. When researching these speakers I wanted something that was very articulate but not harsh in anyway. All I kept hearing was that the Dayton RS's were on the cold/harsh side and that the HiVi’s were warmer. I was told the Swope 3-ways with the SB tweeter were better then the dayton RS mtm designs and competed more with the Mini Statements with the Mini’s holding an edge in the mids and the Swope’s w/the SB tweeter having better highs and bass… So it seems everything I’m hearing in this thread is about the opposite of everything I researched and everything people I talked to said to me. No hard feelings at all, but I’m kinda shocked as well. For me, warmer = better even if that means a little distortion is the reasoning for it. Just my personal tastes

[cjd]

I'd actually suspect that the woofers were not wired + to +, - to - before anything else (so they're out of phase with each-other,) but again that's just a guess and you may have it all wired up correctly - most people say "no bass" and mean "50Hz doesn't thump like I expect" - people call me crazy saying 20Hz is just the start of real bass. And it could be just one cabinet.

I'd be curious who claims the HiVi are superior to the Dayton RS - they're definitely very good drivers, but distortion performance isn't at the same level. HiVi is more forgiving (breakup is less severe) which makes it "easier" to implement a crossover - a poorly done crossover with a Dayton RS (or Seas Excel, if we want to pull in some even more costly comparisons that might deliver the same results) will definitely be hard on the ear. And they're not "warm" to be sure, but that goes somewhat hand in hand with low distortion numbers (also has to do with crossover implementation. The Garnacha is a very warm and full sound, compared to some of my other work, but might still be considered analytical and cold to some.)

Midrange is definitely their most troublesome area - it takes care, and very possibly a more complex crossover.

The Statements use an excellent driver for the mid, definitely a more forgiving choice than any Dayton RS. They also do the mid tunnel thing which brings a different result to the table (Clearwave offered some designs with similar drivers and no tunnel.) The Statement also uses the Dayton RS drivers in their strongest area: bass. Also I'm quite surprised to hear someone preferring the SB tweeter to a ribbon.

I think all things considered, the Swopes are an excellent choice for your music tastes so I'm not sure the end result is wrong or should change.

I will say this: I'm not sure where you were gathering your information, but it sounds largely subjective and opinion-based - I can easily see the "low parts count is a better crossover" crowd preferring the HiVi, but that's a design philosophy my ears don't fully agree with. The internet is full of opinions that are easy to take as fact. My thoughts on this matter are based on available data re: driver performance. I also can't speak to Statement vs Swope 3-way discussion since I've heard neither. I've heard the Natalie P, and it's definitely not a result I'd call warm, but it's top notch. I've heard all of the drivers being discussed and would be happy to work with any of them (excepting perhaps the tweeter you upgraded to the SB) so none are slouches. My notes on driver qualities are largely based on measured performance - Zaph and Mark K and others have shared a ton of this, so it's all available.

I'm always exceedingly skeptical of opinions in some forums based on some designs I have heard/measured that receive rave reviews, yet I find them un-listenable for any length of time (and have, so far, always found a clear indication of WHY in a basic frequency sweep.)

Either way, double check the wiring, especially at the woofers. It never hurts, and can either lead to discovery of a goof or confirmation that it's all as it should be.

C

[---k---]

I've also given up on opinion from internet forums. One example, There is one inexpensive DIY design floating around the internet that gets lots of rave reviews. Lots of people built it and it comes in kits. I built it and found it horrible. Nearly unlistenable. Then heard it at a DIY gathering by the designer. Several people loved it. I found it harsh and so did CJD and Paul.

I've heard designs by CJD, Paul, JonMarsh, and Curt Campbell, Zaph, and Wolf. (and a few others). I trust their designs or any design they've said they've listened to and bless.

Of course, I'm sure there are people who don't like CJD's designs.... to each his own. Anyone who is interested in the Khans, come on over.

[fastbike]

If anyone is still interested, there is a similar thread on the PE Tech Talk site. It looks like there was an error in the Meniscus hook up diagram and the woofers are definitely not wired correctly. One should check Paul's original diagram. I believe cjd's comment in post 10 (woofer wiring) is spot on.

Well hopefully I’m not coming across as being rude, I appreciate all the responses. I’m just an amature when it comes to building speakers, you are all the experts I’ve literally built hundreds of subwoofers so I’ve had to itch to “step it up” for a long time now.

I had the cross-overs built by Meniscus (I could barley read the x-over diagram pdf’s). They sent me a hook up scheme to make sure they are properly wired and basically all I had to do was wire each section’s (tweet,mid,woofers) crossover inputs in parallel. Super easy stuff… after looking at the diagram again I notice that the tweet and mid section are out of phase from each other. I thought the way Meniscus wired the crossovers would make it so I didn’t have to worry about that (their diagram said not to do that)… I can always try switching the +/- tweet and mid sections around tomorrow when I find time. I can also shave off some of the insulation once I take them back apart to finish them!

This also could just very well be that my ears aren’t used to the sound of the speakers. I think overall they sound great! I’ve auditioned countless speakers itching to upgrade my Infinity’s but the only ones I felt that competed well were all around 3-4 grand - too much for me. A place down the street from me sells B&W’s and I always thought they sounded too bright for my taste’s. When researching these speakers I wanted something that was very articulate but not harsh in anyway. All I kept hearing was that the Dayton RS's were on the cold/harsh side and that the HiVi’s were warmer. I was told the Swope 3-ways with the SB tweeter were better then the dayton RS mtm designs and competed more with the Mini Statements with the Mini’s holding an edge in the mids and the Swope’s w/the SB tweeter having better highs and bass… So it seems everything I’m hearing in this thread is about the opposite of everything I researched and everything people I talked to said to me. No hard feelings at all, but I’m kinda shocked as well. For me, warmer = better even if that means a little distortion is the reasoning for it. Just my personal tastes