Apartment Workshop

**cjd** · 10 October 2012, 23:00 Wednesday

For the drill press, I went by a Fine Woodworking article a while back, and snagged a Ridgid when it was marked down slightly. Runout super low in FWW, and I found it to be also. I think a little smaller than that Jet? But also less $$ and you can do big work on it. How big? Dunno.

I don't usually recommend HF for anyone looking for a permanent addition to their collection. Of anything.

Bandsaw (I have the Craftsman/Rokinon 10") can be quiet, but depends what you're cutting too.

I do most of my cuts with a good porter-cable circular + sawboard. Not good for everything, but...

Why do you want the bandsaw? I know what I use mine for, but it's not much speaker related.

You have a good plunge router? 2.25HP minimum, but the 3+ HP Hitachi that goes cheap(er) on Amazon is great for swinging big bits.

**JonMarsh** · 10 October 2012, 23:26 Wednesday

Everyone has their own way of approaching things. It's a question, I suppose, of what you're comfortable working with? Drill press and band saw wouldn't be at the top of my tool acquisition lists! But, what ever works for YOU!

Just for the record, I live in a condo, and what used to be my daughter's bedroom is now my "workroom" (that's where my Rockler bench lives.) It also has another desk/bench setup that is sometimes used as a computer workstation bench, and a large shelf system on the opposite wall. Pretty big closet, but actually have clothes in it. No big tools used in there, or even small ones, though. It's only for clamping and gluing operations, veneering, crossover building, and storage.

I have a concrete upper floor balcony off the living room that's large enough to setup a table saw and a roller runout table.

That see's a lot of coming and going of tools, with "off site" tool storage either in my Element or in one of my three off site storage rooms (one climate controlled 10x20, one ground level 10x20, and another 2nd floor inside 8x14). It's a little inconvenient shuttling tools, but I have them boxed up in rugged bins already setup for specific jobs. Occasionally now I go over to my girlfriend's and use her driveway or back yard- that's not as convenient as it sounds, though, given the logistics.

Right now what I keep at the home boxed up are some of the key basics- plunge router with Jaspar jig, a dual bevel sliding miter saw (just now upgraded from 10" Hitachi to 12" DeWalt) and my DeWalt cordless drill, and one of my Ryobi corded drills. Other stuff gets swapped in and out as I need it.

My main saw is a Craftsman made by Ryobi which features a sliding miter table; but I can do an awful lot with the smaller DeWalt Dw745; it's got a great rack and pinion fence, is very accurate, but only can rip to 16". With the small table surface, it's not good for cross cutting larger pieces.

If room is tight and you don't do projects that are too ginormous, I highly recommend this DeWalt. I'm not sure it would stand up to the beating of a true job site saw, but it's a very fine light small 10" bench table saw, and very easy to move around. Maybe best performance per pound? Get an Incra or Osborne precision miter if you need those kinds of cuts, or get a 12" sliding miter saw to go along with it.

BUT, with this unit and the dual bevel sliding miter saw, there's not a lot I can't do, so the big saw (relatively) doesn't get brought out so often anymore- just for things like the front panels of the Isis project.

BTW, for "precision" 90" drill work, I just often use a portable with one of the fixture tools available at places like Rockler.

And I second the notion regarding Harbor Freight; for low tech stuff (like vises or anvils), OK, but for a precisions tool you plan to keep and use, I'd consider being prepared to look elsewhere, unless your budget is really restrictive.

**technodanvan** · 11 October 2012, 00:29 Thursday

Thanks for the suggestions gentlemen, they are much appreciated.

I, too, mirror the same thought about Harbor Freight products - especially their tools. However, it seems the tool chest may be one of the few exceptions if the internet is to be believed. That is one on the larger reasons I'm torn on that. Realistically I need to separate NEED from WANT. I want more space to lay out everything and store all of my tools in one place, but I certainly don't need those things.

Originally posted by cjd

Why do you want the bandsaw? I know what I use mine for, but it's not much speaker related.

You have a good plunge router? 2.25HP minimum, but the 3+ HP Hitachi that goes cheap(er) on Amazon is great for swinging big bits.

On the bandsaw:

As Jon mentioned a tablesaw - or something with the capabilities of one - clearly needs to be in my future. However, it turns out that I am in the middle of a number of projects where a table saw might not be a terribly critical purchase, at least at this time. I have four small boxes already made that just need finishing. I have an additional seven large boxes to make for Jed's Dynamic series speakers - but these will be curved cabinets and I ordered the internal parts to be cut on a CNC to avoid a dozen board's worth of MDF dust in my apartment.

Image not available

So instead they just gather actual dust while they sit there, waiting.

Of course a good saw would be handy in cutting the hardboard panels I will eventually have to get, but I'm not certain the cuts have to be too accurate.

No, the bandsaw was a need for building a set of speakers for my girlfriend...and damn it, they have to be pretty! So I'm leaning towards trying a very small OB design on the TB W4-1879 ...chosen mostly because it was pretty. And on sale, at the time. We'll see what I can come up with as her criteria will be difficult (if not outright impossible) to meet while making the things sound decent.

Sort of got on a tangent there. Anyway, I wanted to make the box have the shape of a small set of Orions with the curved sides - and I HATE jigsaws. I also have some other detail projects coming up that aren't really speaker related...but certainly none critical.

All of these things can be done by other tools of course, I'm just trying to prioritize. I do 'need' a drill press for all of the speaker projects so I will take a look at that Ridgid. I'm certainly no pro and this won't see hours of use every day so getting an expensive one is hard to swallow.

On the router:

I have the 2.25 Hp Bosch I've seen a lot of folks have. It's pushing 4 years old but doesn't break a sweat. Someday I'll make a router table and get one of those big Hitachis to permanently place there...I've got some bits this Bosch just doesn't like.

By the way Jon, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one having to make do with what little space we have! I was eyeing that DeWalt tablesaw (and the Bosch...I like Bosch...) as a possible one to wheel out onto my little patio. I think it could work quite well. I hadn't thought about the feeder table though, that would be a necessity given the sizes of boards used.

Decisions, decisions...

Edit:

Would this be the Ridgid in question? Certainly has great reviews on the HD site, though it sounds like it used to only cost $300.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100037270&storeId=10051&l angId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=100037270&ci_kw=%7bkeyw or d%7d&kwd=%7bkeyword%7d&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100037270&ci_gpa=pla#.UHZTgcWukZ0

**dar47** · 11 October 2012, 01:12 Thursday

I spent the first 10 years of family life in a side by side with just a patio and 8'X8' garden shed. From my experience Jon's portability of tools and easy setup is a must. these were my requirements,
1. All my tools were in bins or boxes made for the tool, easy too move where needed.
2. All cutting and bulk assembly done outside on table made from 2 saw horses I made that could be joined together to put one or more sheets of plywood on if needed. A good circular saw, edge guide or cutoff sled can do just as good as a festool for a lot less. Jon's saws are next step up.
3. Your room can do assembly and finish work. along with your bench you could start with a folding workmate and 2 metal leg plastic top folding tables. it's nice to have several work stations.

Minimum tools I started with, circular saw, 2 cordless drills (you can get a jig to make a press), saber saw, 2 routers, biscuit joiner, random orbit sander, palm sander, Jasper jig, lots of clamps, small compressor to blow dust away and 18 & 16 gauge nailers, a good shop vac and of course lots of hand tools.

Then I kept buying

**Hank** · 11 October 2012, 07:00 Thursday

The first year after my divorce was spent in an apartment and I built a router cabinet, with dovetail drawers and Jointech top/positioning system on my small patio, using a Skil saw, homemade router table top and drill. Very time consuming, but I got 'er done. I don't see the need for a band saw - I still don't have one. In my garage sits a tweaked Jet table saw, a big drill press, my router cabinet, 3 routers, A/C drill, A/C jigsaw, cordless drill, cordless screwdriver, cordless multi-tool, handtool chest and lots of clamps (remember the rule: a man can never have too many clamps), and of course lots of sandpaper and 400 to 1500 grit Wet-Or-Dry paper (both from that company with the 3-letter name

).
For you, I'd get the DeWalt or Bosch portable table saw. And here goes my continual router recommendation: buy one with a dust collection port FOR SURE. MDF dust is nasty and gets on everything. DW621 DeWalt is one with dust collection. Buy a good shop vac and an aftermarket hepa filter. Now go make some "pretty" speakers. :T

**cjd** · 11 October 2012, 09:26 Thursday

My only real workspace is my garage' and it needs to park two cars at the end of every day. I have a 3.5x6 area in the basement too.

Skip the band saw. Get a good sabersaw (Bosch here IMO) and template and trim with a router. All my opinion but the cuts you mention just take a little patience. That's space in the shop to use elsewhere.

Same router I have. It's awesome.

Think through your projects and figure out what tool you want for what use. If you cut proud and flush trim, a saw board is more than adequate. If you need more precision, make sure the saw delivers. That Ryobi Jon has is one of the only saws that size up to some of his crazy cuts just because it's a sliding table.

Definitely include dust management. Cyclone collector and a fine particle filter both if you're doing work indoors.

**JonMarsh** · 11 October 2012, 09:55 Thursday

I"ll triple down on the DW621- have one myself, and the dust collection; and it's definitely a favorite. Hard to find locally these days; that's why God invented Amazon, I guess....

And I'm in violent agreement with Hank about Clamps; I figure you should buy a few every month just on general principles. I'm a Bessy fan, but Woodcraft has a good Bessy clone, too. Also, they just came out with a new light weight clamp, which actually DOES what an Irwin seems to claim it would do, but usually doesn't.

**Hdale85** · 11 October 2012, 10:16 Thursday

They don't make the DW621 anymore do they? I think you have to find a NOS source.

**technodanvan** · 11 October 2012, 12:45 Thursday

I was starting to quote everyone and then lost everything. *sigh*

But seriously good suggestions, I am glad I bounced my ideas off of you guys. Given the expense of a bandsaw it does seem like money that could better used elsewhere.

Clamps are ALWAYS on my mind!

Image not available

I need to get many more, and of higher quality. Those that I have now serve their purpose but aren't very easy to use. And I definitely don't have anywhere near enough for properly laminating boards together, at least without planning for a lot of wasted material and need for re-squaring everything.

Unfortunately there is not a Woodcraft in all of Nevada. Best place I've seen here for tools is the Woodworkers Emporium - seems decent enough but I didn't check out any of their cheaper clamps last time I was there.

Dust collection was something I only dimly thought of. I guess I was anticipating doing all of the heavy-mes stuff outdoor, but even still I should be doing my part in keeping that mess under control. I'm fairly certain I still have the port for my router tucked away in a toolbox somewhere, so that's good.

I've been reading up on drill presses and apparently there is a relatively inexpensive Porter Cable that Lowe's might still carry that is supposed to be pretty good for the cost. I don't think I've ever seen a press at a Lowe's before, but I'll need to take a look next time I'm there.

**Hdale85** · 11 October 2012, 13:09 Thursday

I find the harbor freight clamps to be pretty decent actually.... Not so much the cheap plastic ones but some of their bar/pole clamps and what not are pretty nice and inexpensive.

As for dust collection you can get one of the cyclones that goes on top of a shop vac or in between the shop vac and tool and that'll work pretty well and store away nicely.

**Hank** · 11 October 2012, 14:07 Thursday

They don't make the DW621 anymore do they?

I saw it on Amazon yesterday.

I think Hdale85 is referring to Oneida's Dust Deputy - recommend you consider it as adjunct to your shop vac: http://www.oneida-air.com/category.a...5C357DFE131%7D

Woodcraft has a heckuva selection of clamps - all the major brands. I just put the Jorgensen Cabinetmaster 4-piece set in the shopping cart and saw that shipping charge to me is $15.99. If you have a state sales tax, you'd pay none since Woodcraft isn't in your state.

Even if you do your cutting outside, be sure to wear a dust mask (I can recommend a brand :B )

**Hdale85** · 11 October 2012, 15:10 Thursday

There are some other models of dust collectors that work with shop Vac's, but that's certainly one of them.

**technodanvan** · 11 October 2012, 15:26 Thursday

^^^

Actually I do industrial hygiene as one of my primary jobs...so I've got the mask situation covered!

I don't know why, but I never even considered looking to see if Woodcraft sold online. 8O

**CADman_ks** · 11 October 2012, 22:25 Thursday

With regards to the HF argument...

I think that one will probably rage forever. They do have some tools that get the job done, and if it's not a tool that you're going to use daily or to make a living with, it may work for you.

With that being said, I would not buy anything from HF unless I can go to their store and see it first. If it passes the visual inspection test, it will work.

One thing that I have bought a LOT of there is welding clamps. They are NOT the best, but they do work for me, and they are really reliable. I actually use them quite a bit when I'm building speakers as well. I like the ones with the movable pads on them...

**Winter** · 12 October 2012, 08:48 Friday

Going an alternate path from the table saw, you may want to consider a track saw. Festool, DeWalt, and Makita manufacture them. I have the Makita model. They are priced in the $400 and above range. I feel much safer using it to cut large sections than I do when using a table saw. I built a 4'X8' table with a dropped center section (4" drop, 15" wide) that allows me to rip large sheets safely by myself, using the track saw. For narrow cuts less than 15" I support the cut piece with a 2x4 vertically up in the drop. This prevents the cut piece from dropping at the end of the cut and tearing that last 1/4" . The track has a rubber sheet on the bottom, so you never have to clamp it down. To adjust the track to your drawn line, you just pick it up an inch or so - move over and place down. The saw does not wobble left or right in the track, so the actual cuts do not require concentrating on keeping the saw to one side. User dependant, accuracy of the cuts is 1/64" or better.

If and when you are looking for another router, the compact DeWalt 611PK (1 1/4 hp) with the punge base is really a nice tool. It's powerful enough for all work that allows a 1/4" drive bit. It is sized between a standard router and a laminate trimmer, and much easier to handle than a standard router with one hand during the required moments. It is variable speed with a soft start. and has a nice depth adjustment setup. I prefer the DeWalt 611 for most work. I also have Porter Cable 690 single speed and 690 variable speed routers.

**technodanvan** · 12 October 2012, 11:04 Friday

Honestly when it comes to routers I'm pretty pleased with my Bosch. I have considered purchasing one of the smaller models for trimming purposes but really that's $100 that could be spent elsewhere. Until I get a decent router table I'll probably just stick with what I have.

I have looked long and hard at the Festool design and see how it could be very useful for cutting up large boards. However, I can also see that it would less than ideal for cutting smaller pieces, which I think is more important. In my case, the only vehicle I own is a Mazda 3 hatchback. Someday I may trade it in for a truck, or at least something that can pull a trailer, but for now I get a lot of use out of it despite its size limitations. I say this because basically it means I will very rarely have any large sheets of wood to deal with. When I have a project come up I will generally have the guys at the woodshop cut up the board small enough for me to be able to transport them. Nothing exact or anything, just small enough to fit in my car. What that means is that "most" cuts I have should be doable (and safe!) a variety of ways.

I may still invest in a nice circular saw / guide combination someday, but I really think I would feel more comfortable with a tablesaw.

I DO really like the dust collection options on the Festool tools though! But man they are expensive...

I'll be down in Tucson this weekend so I'll stop by Woodcraft and Woodworker's Source to try out a few of their tools. Still in the process of selling some things too, so it will be a couple of weeks before I make a final decision.

**Winter** · 12 October 2012, 11:25 Friday

"I have looked long and hard at the Festool design and see how it could be very useful for cutting up large boards. However, I can also see that it would less than ideal for cutting smaller pieces, which I think is more important."

The choice is yours, but surprisingly with the large table surface the track saw is easy to use on small cuts, even 4" cuts. Because the track is light aluminum, the cut is so clean and accurate, and there is no need to clamp, I use it on all my enclosure straight cuts, not just the long rips. But a 4 foot working surface definitely helps.

**technodanvan** · 16 October 2012, 18:32 Tuesday

Well maybe it's just my lack of precision, but I find myself needing to make cuts under 1" on a frequent enough basis that the Festool design concerns me. Not that I'm sure an experienced Festooler wouldn't be able to do it (especially with appropriate jigs) but I'm not certain that it would do it any better. Especially given the additional cost.

I have made my first purchase and have begun assembling my new drill press. I elected to go with the Porter Cable PCB66DP from Lowe's.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_78742-46069-PCB660DP_0__

It seems that since Home Depot has raised the price on their Ridgid to $500 that this one is about as good as you're going to get for ~$300. I think this is important so I can invest in either making (or purchasing) a nice table and fence system for it, along with a few other minor upgrades that will make it smoother and more convenient to use.

It does have its downsides of course. The stock table was clearly designed for metal working as their is no cutout for an MDF insert, nor is there enough room there for even a decent sized forstner bit to go through the table - it would just bite metal. I have some good bits so I am going to make sure my table will be thick enough that such an occurrence will never happen.

I also need to make something for the press to rest on. It's going in a carpeted room so the problem is twofold: First, I want to keep the carpet clean and the cast iron base is relatively oily/dirty. Second, it just doesn't sit very evenly. This is hardly isolated to the Porter Cable press so I thought about solutions to this problem well before the purchase. I haven't decided on a final solution yet, but it will be forthcoming.

Of course had I still lived in Tucson I would have bought a 17" Jet off of Craigslist that came with a nice Woodpeckers table for about $200 cheaper than just the press alone. I'm sure now that I've made the purchase I'll see a nice one finally pop up here in Vegas. *sigh*

Anyway, I have also decided that the table saw I will purchase is the DeWalt DW745 as first recommended by Jon Marsh, then basically recommended by everyone else on the internet. Some of the more expensive siblings are nice because the fence can be extended a good 8" further, but you're also paying for a stand that I don't really want. Instead, the money saved will go towards a purpose-built table that will give me a lot more room to work, along with a fence that has even more room to spare.

http://www.amazon.com/Rousseau-2745-PortaMax-Table-DeWalt/dp/B000TYT86O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350427048&sr=8-1&keywords=rousseau+table+saw

There is an add-on option for an outfeed table that I will eventually need to purchase as well, among some other add-ons that may be evaluated down the road.

Anyway, as expensive as this is it seems that this is the only way to approach the capability of a stationary tablesaw while still maintaining portability.

**Hank** · 17 October 2012, 07:09 Wednesday

Check out this Rockler drill press table as a possibility: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...3&site=ROCKLER

**JonMarsh** · 17 October 2012, 09:43 Wednesday

Originally posted by technodanvan

Anyway, I have also decided that the table saw I will purchase is the DeWalt DW745 as first recommended by Jon Marsh, then basically recommended by everyone else on the internet. Some of the more expensive siblings are nice because the fence can be extended a good 8" further, but you're also paying for a stand that I don't really want. Instead, the money saved will go towards a purpose-built table that will give me a lot more room to work, along with a fence that has even more room to spare.

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Rousseau-2745-PortaMax-Table-DeWalt/dp/B000TYT86O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350427048&sr=8-1&keywords=rousseau+table+saw

There is an add-on option for an outfeed table that I will eventually need to purchase as well, among some other add-ons that may be evaluated down the road.

Anyway, as expensive as this is it seems that this is the only way to approach the capability of a stationary tablesaw while still maintaining portability.

Nice table, thanks for posting that- :T I added it to my wish list, have been wondering if something like that existed!

Us Bedouin nomads have a harder time putting a good shop together, that's for sure...

**technodanvan** · 17 October 2012, 12:37 Wednesday

Originally posted by Hank

Check out this Rockler drill press table as a possibility: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...3&site=ROCKLER

That was the first one I had intended to purchase, but then I found this one:

Page not Found - Woodpeckers Inc

http://www.woodpeck.com/wpdrillpresstable.html

I couldn't see either in person so all I could do was base the purchase on previous experience with each companies products - and I have to say that I have only seen extremely high quality come from the Woopeckers name. The Rockler had a few features that could be nice on occasion, but I like the idea of a low fence so this one took the cake.

Unfortunately I will need to modify it to work with my press. Can nothing ever be easy? :cry:

Originally posted by JonMarsh

Nice table, thanks for posting that- :T I added it to my wish list, have been wondering if something like that existed!

Us Bedouin nomads have a harder time putting a good shop together, that's for sure...

No problem, I had wondered if you had seen it before! I thought about making my own but it wouldn't have been particularly portable and the fence I was looking at was fairly expensive too. I think this will be a nice middle ground. I'll probably have to hold off until next month to get the table, though I have the saw in my car now.

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