Nebbiolo: Another 3-way experiment

[cjd]

Seems threads without completion dates are all the rage... not that I have finished my existing speaker projects! Oops. But I need a replacement before I can take the Ansonicas out for finishing. A room without music! no way.

I'm finally going to be using the OW1's I won at DIYChicago a bunch of years ago! These have a nice flat response and extend fairly deep for a 3/4, not to mention keeping up reasonably well off-axis. Not the last word in distortion, but with a fairly "nice" sound, they introduce (a very very little) distortion the way we like to hear. So the system is being designed to build upon that.

Woofers will be a pair of Seas CA18RNX.

Bridging what little gap I find between these will be a Tang-Band W4-1320SJ (bamboo cone, truncated frame, neo magnet).

This will be a TMWW layout, probably vertical baffle for woofers and a kick back for the mid+tweet and large facets... a familiar look for many, but not without reason. I still have some modeling to do and may go for a full tilt.

Crossovers - I'm going to try something crazy, for me at any rate. There's tons of overlap on these drivers as far as usable frequency range, and even driver spacing. It's a very compact layout. So the goal is to push really low order slopes, which is where the experimenting comes in. Driver sensitivities are very evenly matched, responses pretty consistently flat through the usable ranges, no major problems anywhere... 1st order? Might happen. And I may actually work up a couple options to listen to.

Plans subject to change as I wait for the Seas drivers to become available (seems Meniscus has 'em, and a bit cheaper than Mad still, so we'll see...) and do a little more simulating on the box layout and the rest while I wait. Weather is getting to where I can start taking over the garage for a Saturday to make sawdust... and speakers.

I'll also soon have parts for yet another project... WWWWMTW 3.5-way, 180mm woofers but a sensitivity between 92dB and 94dB at 2.83v. Tuning around 30Hz, probably 28Hz. One thing at a time, and that one will take a while to build.

[mtmpenn]

Very interesting...

Do you have a rough sense of the enclosure size?

[cjd]

Very interesting...

Do you have a rough sense of the enclosure size?

I have drawings at home. May get around to posting this evening. Seem to remember 8.5"w and something around 40" tall. Tuning in the mid-30hz range.

[5th element]

If you're going to aim for very low order slopes, then depending on where you put the xover between the bass and the midrange you could 0.5 way one of the bass drivers. It should theoretically offer a small improvement in the off axis performance or perhaps make driver integration slightly easier.

I have tried toying with 1st order acoustic crossovers before, purely in simulation mind you, but they always end up being more trouble then they're worth, either that or I find the compromises unacceptable.

[---k---]

Oh you tease! WWWWMTW Missing a M in there?


Let me know when you have your measurement gear setup...

[Evil Twin]

May the Force be with you in this endeavor, but in my early years I found it very hard to make a 3 way sound comfortable with 1st order slopes- it took a four way before solid pulse reproduction and a reasonable sense of ease were possible.

But these days we have much better drivers and tools at our disposal- I would only suggest a distortion sweep as a final sanity check on your chosen alignment. But then, perhaps sanity is over rated compared to art.

[cjd]

If you're going to aim for very low order slopes, then depending on where you put the xover between the bass and the midrange you could 0.5 way one of the bass drivers. It should theoretically offer a small improvement in the off axis performance or perhaps make driver integration slightly easier.

I have tried toying with 1st order acoustic crossovers before, purely in simulation mind you, but they always end up being more trouble then they're worth, either that or I find the compromises unacceptable.

Yeah, I'm keeping that in mind, typing on my phone sucks and I must have accidentally deleted part of one of those sentences It's almost a sure thing to be 3.5-way if I slant the entire baffle.

And that was an extra W, should be WWWMTW. No missing M. It's some theory-into-practice prep for the still in progress open baffle stuff I'm toying with. The mid won't have trouble keeping up.

Dimensions are 8.5x42x16

[cjd]

May the Force be with you in this endeavor, but in my early years I found it very hard to make a 3 way sound comfortable with 1st order slopes- it took a four way before solid pulse reproduction and a reasonable sense of ease were possible.

But these days we have much better drivers and tools at our disposal- I would only suggest a distortion sweep as a final sanity check on your chosen alignment. But then, perhaps sanity is over rated compared to art.

I expect it may only be 1st on woofer and tweet, perhaps 2nd on mid, but we'll see. Could be the opposite. Also, the T-B mid isn't exactly the cleanest driver out there. It's known for being very very pleasing, in that papery sort of way. Sounds good, but probably won't be the most resolving system I've ever built. On the other hand, those Duelund sheets may come in handy and...

[cjd]

A little more modeling today and I think I've settled, though this is so amazingly unoriginal it's not even funny. I'm really not sure what's got me so intrigued to work on this, but there it is.

[5th element]

There's only so many ways to skin a cat, especially when it comes to box diffraction. Those look really nice.

[maynardg]

A crossover typology that may interest you here.

http://www.cordellaudio.com/loudspeakers/morel_m3.shtml

[JonMarsh]

A little more modeling today and I think I've settled, though this is so amazingly unoriginal it's not even funny. I'm really not sure what's got me so intrigued to work on this, but there it is.

Hmmmm, something familiar about that... must be a virus going around.

[---k---]

Chris, now that you got the box models done and the drivers set, it is about time you start teasing us all about how you're going to make a second version of these with even fancier drivers. :wink:

[cjd]

Chris, now that you got the box models done and the drivers set, it is about time you start teasing us all about how you're going to make a second version of these with even fancier drivers. :wink:

Ahh yes...

Well... it seems that just might be... um... Well, let's see what's in the shopping cart...

A couple Raal 140-15D
A couple Accuton C90-6-089 (hey, they're on sale at Mad!)
A handful of Scanspeak Illuminator 18WU/8747T

I'm not sure about the driver selection yet...

(no, that's not really in my shopping cart... yet...)

[cjd]

Oh, and the Balthazar Nebbiolo is still needing a tweeter decision, but... Same basic driver size relationships but a little bigger... I mean, while I'm laying out the plans for future versions that will sidetrack me into never completing...

Mid is shaping up to be the B&C 8PE21 (8")
Woofers a pair of B&C 18SW115 (18")

If anyone has a tweeter recommendation please speak up.

(damn if I don't want to build that...)

[cjd]

Ahh yes...

Well... it seems that just might be... um... Well, let's see what's in the shopping cart...

A couple Raal 140-15D
A couple Accuton C90-6-089 (hey, they're on sale at Mad!)
A handful of Scanspeak Illuminator 18WU/8747T

I'm not sure about the driver selection yet...

(no, that's not really in my shopping cart... yet...)

Since there seem to be a few people rather excited about this... let me burst your bubble now. I was following up on Ryan's comment, which I presume was poking fun at Jon's ability to never finish a project because the parts keep getting upgraded. :B I was hoping the Balthazar option would make that clear...

On the other hand, if I can figure out how to swing the purchases for this, it's also something I'd seriously love to put together. But I really plan to finish the Nebbiolo first.

This weekend was supposed to see at least a little sawdust for this project, but instead found me with a sore throat and zero tolerance for dust. So no progress.

[---k---]

Yes. I was poking Jon. Glad you caught that.

[cjd]

Drivers have arrived! (CA18RNX was back-ordered for some time...)

Weather is good...

Pity it's spring clean-up time, and that takes priority.

I will say, the only "higher end" driver that likes the same cabinet size as the Seas is an Accuton...

[JonMarsh]

Well, even just getting drivers in is progress. I've got this stinker of a project at work for a major computing vendor that I'm working on today instead of making sawdust or comparing DAC's or hunting Easter eggs. So I sympathize, and will have five weeks of non stop travel coming up in two weeks (cross fingers my new glasses get here in time before the first flight departure).

[cjd]

Well, even just getting drivers in is progress. I've got this stinker of a project at work for a major computing vendor that I'm working on today instead of making sawdust or comparing DAC's or hunting Easter eggs. So I sympathize, and will have five weeks of non stop travel coming up in two weeks (cross fingers my new glasses get here in time before the first flight departure).

If it makes you feel any better... I may be sent to work with a team in India for a while... for a month or two. I made a little progress on a new equipment rack that's been in progress for about 2 months now. Most of it's done, and it is actually holding the amps now, just needs a top shelf (there are no lower shelves, just steel L stock under the amp feet with ~3-4" above/below each, tons of airflow room...)

Sometimes, it's the little things you get to do for yourself.

C

[JonMarsh]

Two months in India- probably wouldn't be my cup of tea, or java! What part of the country? I have a number of acquaintances from work and outside of it from there.

[cjd]

I think the office is in Bangalore. I'd certainly take the opportunity to travel on weekends! I'm not convinced the trio would be worth my time so who knows. I can't tell what they're trying to do with me at work these days.

[---k---]

They would have to make my go time worth it to India for 3 months. I've known a few people who had to move to the Qatar for a year. The pay bump and bonus was well.... beyond tempting. I hope they take care of you similarly if they force it.

[WilZirkle]

Try not to come back with a new wife.

[5th element]

Try not to come back with a new wife.

Or two. :roll:

[cjd]

What?

[WilZirkle]

In IT when someone from India goes home for a month or so it seems like they end up married (arranged marriage). Just had a friend go and come back (married) but he knew it was going to happen when he left. There was some show recently that touched on it too, might have been Big Bang Theory.

[cjd]

So they go home for their wedding and a honeymoon and it means I have to be careful? I mean, I took time off to get married also. Is this a risk for any travel away from home? Still lost I guess. Especially on "or two"...

Besides, if they're cute and my wife approves... ...

[benchtester]

...
Besides, if they're cute and my wife approves... ...

I doubt she would since they tend to have a low SAF. However she might go for some big speakers, if you asked her to choose one or the other. :W

[cjd]

Why... I do believe that's sawdust!

Since family stuff prevents me from being at InDIYana at least something seems to be up here.

[NWLanding]

Excitedly awaiting a report on the continuation of this design!

[cjd]

The next step requires me to find a weekend where I take over the garage, and family stuff has prevented that for the time being. Maybe I'll manage something on the 4th, will see.

[agrippa]

I am very interested in this baby. I bet it is a winner.

[technodanvan]

I am very interested in this baby. I bet it is a winner.

I'm not sure that the TB driver is made anymore, PE doesn't stock it, at least.

Still, I'd like to see what the finished product looks like!

[cjd]

I'm not sure that the TB driver is made anymore, PE doesn't stock it, at least.

Still, I'd like to see what the finished product looks like!

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-915&FTR=w4-1320sj

Nevermind. PE just being daft, and that stupid tiny "F" at the end. Impedance is completely different. Oh well. I suppose the thing to do is snag some of this new ferrite model and use that instead.

Sigh.

[NWLanding]

The next step requires me to find a weekend where I take over the garage.

If it would help, you could come take over my shop! Oh wait, we're not a commute distance apart, drat.

[JonMarsh]

The next step requires me to find a weekend where I take over the garage, and family stuff has prevented that for the time being. Maybe I'll manage something on the 4th, will see.

Tsk, tsk, Chris- this is beginning to sound ALL TOO FAMILIAR!! :roll:

You are truly succeeding in becoming a bigger tease and ne'er do well (or ne'er do finish) than I am! :T

I have the built baffles and all supporting bits and pieces for the new Arvo Part in my home office bedroom as a constant reminder of what I NEED to be working on (essentially zero progress since XMAS), but find myself negotiating again what my girlfriend and I will be doing on the 4th, and it's looking like I'll be driving her Porsche 356 in a parade in downtown Danville- and barbecuing afterwards for a small group! 8O How the heck did that happen? This weekend I also need to get the rest of the rough cut DeathStar pieces out of her garage. And work on a special presentation for the TL Board in Munich due July 10th. :Z

How's that trip to India coming? I just got back from Munich in the wee hours yesterday...

[NWLanding]

Life is that which happens that gets in the way of DIYing. Forget being a master of the universe, I just want to be a master of my time! Ahhh, 5 years 'til retirement!

[cjd]

If it would help, you could come take over my shop! Oh wait, we're not a commute distance apart, drat.

Dunno, the move sounds good.

No one up that way has tried to hire me away yet though, and only side-step so far has been Netflix... but they're not up there and not sure I want to go to SF.

Jon, does it help if I mention I may actually have the TM portion for an upscale version ordered? Accuton... hehe. Still waiting to hear details if they're available so maybe not...

But, the family stuff has to take priority. Well, you can count a broken toe on my part (work macbook slipped when I was pulling it out of my bag for an early morning meeting with the team in Israel and landed corner-down on my foot...) but ...

I did get layout stuff done and realized I needed to do the dado work on the table saw to be properly consistent side-to-side (even if I use the router, it still uses the saw table/fence)

India at least seems off the table; my (now previous, new one Monday!) manager stopped by the office there on a visit home and the approach to working with that team has changed.

I'm really torn on whether to proceed with the Neo drivers I have, or spring for the new "F" variants so others could actually, you know, build these. The OW1 is at least still around, though I'm sure people would love a version with the Seas H1280-06 22TFF?

Sigh. Proceeding as planned for now.

[technodanvan]

Sigh. Proceeding as planned for now.

Honestly that's probably the best move right now given how TB seems to be discontinuing all the drivers I show any interest in. I'd hate for you to switch them up only to have the ferrite variant canceled too!

[NWLanding]

I've got my fingers crossed for a design using the OW1s since I've got a couple waiting to be used!

[cjd]

I've got my fingers crossed for a design using the OW1s since I've got a couple waiting to be used!

So that's a vote for me getting the "F" variant of the T-B eh?

What's another $70... couple more tweeters... hmmm. The guest bedroom does need some speakers...

[agrippa]

So that's a vote for me getting the "F" variant of the T-B eh?

What's another $70... couple more tweeters... hmmm. The guest bedroom does need some speakers...

That's the style.

[NWLanding]

So that's a vote for me getting the "F" variant of the T-B eh?

What's another $70... couple more tweeters... hmmm. The guest bedroom does need some speakers...

I'm just trying to do my part to stimulate the economy! I just sold something on ebay and have a hole burning in my pocket! Hurry up and finish the design before I buy some single malt scotch instead :W

[cjd]

So, since I'm looking at drivers again, there is an alternative to the T-B that wasn't around when I purchased that originally...

The SB Acoustics SB12NRXF25-4

It's more than the T-B, but I suspect it's a substantially cleaner driver as well based on the impedance plot and history...

C