Total noob trying to fill a HUGE space...

[CADman_ks]

OK... Been lurking around, on and off, for a while (over a year), and finally joined. GREAT SITE!!!

There's just so much GREAT information out there, that it just about makes a guys head hurt!! A lot of the information out there is for filling up "normal" sized rooms, like living rooms or home theaters, or such.

I'm looking to get or build some speakers for my shop. My shop is 42' x 72' x 14' (walls). I currently have a fairly nice Sony receiver that puts out 140W / channel, so I can drive just about anything. I have it hooked up to two different sets of speakers, speakers that I just had laying around. It makes music out there, and it works, but the sound is pretty pathetic.

I'm not necessarily looking for speakers that will blow the place up, but I still want them to be able to go loud, if I want to be able to do that. I also realize that they are probably going to need to be able to get pretty loud to fill this space up with sound. But more than anything, I would like to be able to get some bass out of whatever it is that I build. The current speakers that I have are definitely bass poor, there's no doubt about that. The current speakers that I have can fill the space with sound, but I have to be cranked pretty far on the volume to get there.

Now, because these speakers are going in my shop, I don't really want to spend a fortune on them, because I obviously don't listen to them every day. Maybe this isn't possible, but I'd like to get the whole thing done for under $250. I'm a good wood worker, so that part doesn't bother me, and I can build the crossovers, if I have a schematic. I don't possess the knowledge or skill to figure out what should go in the crossover though, or how the cabs should be built, or even what actual drivers I should use.

I've never heard any folded horns, but I thought that might be something that I could build to get some pretty big volume, if I could find some drivers that were pretty reasonable. But, I don't know what folded horns look like, OR even if they will do what I'm after.

I've also thought about trying to build something along the lines of a Cerwin Vega re-30, or a 3-way type design that has a big woofer, normal mid, and tweeter. Makes a lot of sound. Makes a lot of bass. Maybe doesn't make the worlds best sound. That's fine.

I guess the real question is, what kind of speaker am I ultimately going to need to fill this space with "decent" sound, that has some bass, and can still be turned up, if the need arises. I don't really want to build something and then find out that it doesn't do what I was after. That would be pretty disappointing.

I'd also welcome any links that you might be able to provide that might enable me to do MORE research to figure out what might work in there...

Thanks in advance,

CADman_ks

[---k---]

Curt's Stentorians would fit your budget and likely loudness criteria. Curt describes it as being able to be used for PA type systems - though I wonder how well that tweeter would hold up. Would this work?

http://speakerdesignworks.com/NS6project_1.html

[Dean100]

Welcome to htguide!

You might want to do a search for econowave here or over at the Parts Express forum. Not sure if they will be within your budget or not.

[CADman_ks]

Curt's Stentorians would fit your budget and likely loudness criteria. Curt describes it as being able to be used for PA type systems - though I wonder how well that tweeter would hold up. Would this work?
http://speakerdesignworks.com/NS6project_1.html

Thanks for the reply!!!

Yeah, I saw those, and I read his review about them being able to be used as PA speakers. Those have definitely peaked my interest.

If I were to build these, and then I found out that they didn't have enough tweeter, could I add another tweeter on top that was more powerful, or would that make a difference?

I've actually been looking around on our local craigslist, and I have been searching for either stage speakers or PA speakers. I'm a little bit concerned that PA speakers might sound a little bit muddy. Again, I don't want critical mass audio in there, but I want it sound decent...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

Welcome to htguide!

You might want to do a search for econowave here or over at the Parts Express forum or at Audio Karma. Not sure if they will be within your budget or not.

Thanks!

That's something that I haven't managed to find yet in all of my searching. I'm numb from searching!!

I'll check those out, and see if they might foot the bill...

CADman_ks

[cjd]

If I were to build these, and then I found out that they didn't have enough tweeter, could I add another tweeter on top that was more powerful, or would that make a difference?

No.

Also, there is still going to be some limit to the level of bass you'll get from these. However, I think they'll give you something close(r) to what you want with the option of adding a horn subwoofer down the road - though of course you'll need at least an amp for that.

Designs within your budget that also have high(er) sensitivity and some bass output are very very thin on the ground - they're just not much called for, if they're even entirely possible (they are if you happen upon a set of buyout components - however, those designs aren't done much since they depend on drivers that are inherently limited in availability.) Even the Stentorians depend on this.

A very quick perusal of parts suggests some very budget oriented 3-ways with 15" pro woofers might be possible, but would still be a bit tough for $250. Maybe $300. I think I have parts picked out that would work together well that would retail at ~$225 for a pair (but also not be buyouts!) ... but you'd need a crossover still, and a 3-way for $12 is... probably not happening. The assembled generic ones (which would work very poorly, if at all) are ~$50/ea. Even with iron core inductors and electrolytic caps. Dropping to a 12" woofer *might* squeeze it into $250. Either way, it would still be accepting certain compromises but should net ~92-94dB sensitivity. But for that, it would need to be measured.

C

[Paul W]

I think you're on the right track with used pro speakers (15" with a horn tweeter). They can be had for less than the cost of the drivers & are probably the best (in budget) way to fill that space. Adding a horn sub later is a great suggestion.

[CADman_ks]

Curt's Stentorians would fit your budget and likely loudness criteria. Curt describes it as being able to be used for PA type systems - though I wonder how well that tweeter would hold up. Would this work?
http://speakerdesignworks.com/NS6project_1.html

I think that these speakers probably have a LOT of possibility. I just loaded all of components into my cart at PE, and the total is $185ish + shipping.

That leaves me $50 for cabs. Might be a little more than that, but I wouldn't need to have super nice looking cabs, since it's going to be in the shop anyway.

I'll read up some more on these...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

Stentorians...

Over on Curt's website he has EXCELLENT instructions for the building of these. Especially for someone like me, that has the ability, but doesn't necessarily understand all of the "how everything works".

He even has detailed views of how you would wire the crossovers. If I can't build a crossover from those illustrations, then I have NO business even attempting to try and build these speakers. I'm sure that I could have done it from the schematics, but I may not have done it quite the way that his illustrations show. That type of stuff is helpful when you're starting out.

One thing that I like about these, is that ultimately you have the equivalency of 15" of woofer, and I think that if I want some decent bass, this is the way to get that.

CADman_ks

[---k---]

Build them, but just don't listen to the 72' away.
I think if you place them in the room where you're most often going to be, you'll get ear splitting loudness levels within 10 - 20' no problem. As you get further away, you'll get less. So, I think as long as your not asking for ear splitting loudness in all four corners, your demand is probably a lot more reasonable.

The Econowaves mentioned are probably the best alternative of things already designed. I haven't kept up with them to know enough about them to recommend them. Last I looked, it was more of a generic crossover for a mix and match set of drivers. Maybe it has gotten more solidified? But, I'm not sure there is one econowave design that has been measured and is fully customized/optimized for a set of drivers yet - like Curt's design and others. This is more a request for someone to inform me rather than a bash.

[CADman_ks]

Build them, but just don't listen to the 72' away.
I think if you place them in the room where you're most often going to be, you'll get ear splitting loudness levels within 10 - 20' no problem. As you get further away, you'll get less. So, I think as long as your not asking for ear splitting loudness in all four corners, your demand is probably a lot more reasonable.

They will not be 72' away, LOL! They will actually be in that 20' - 25' range all the time, and I'll be in between that at all times, so that's good. I don't really want / need ear splitting, but loud at times is not bad either. You know, like when you can't get a bolt loose, and your frustration level is rising? You want to put on some heavy metal or good 80's rock, and turn it up to 11. Loud for me with my current speakers, just plain sucks, to put it bluntly.

The Econowaves mentioned are probably the best alternative of things already designed. I haven't kept up with them to know enough about them to recommend them. Last I looked, it was more of a generic crossover for a mix and match set of drivers. Maybe it has gotten more solidified? But, I'm not sure there is one econowave design that has been measured and is fully customized/optimized for a set of drivers yet - like Curt's design and others. This is more a request for someone to inform me rather than a bash.

...and where I fall short, is that I don't have the know-how to analyze all of these different designs to figure out which ones WOULD work the best. That's one of the things that appeals to me about the Stentorians. It's all there, and at the worst, I'm guessing won't be quieter than what I have, and at that point, it's just a bonus.

I've always wanted to build my own speakers. I just might have bought a ticket for the ride...

;x( Really appreciate all of the input from everyone! Your help has been GREAT! ;x(

CADman_ks

[mdocod]

First post here, this seems as good a place as any to start throwing my 2 cents in

I would take advantage of the PE factory buyouts for this build. I realize there won't be any long term support but.. the price is right. I would suggest buying 16 of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=299-284 .. and using 8 per speaker.

I would build the boxes with relatively wide front baffles. maybe ~30" wide, by 48" tall inside dimensions, 24" deep would be enough space (~20ft^3). (those dimensions should be friendly to getting good use out of standard 4x8ft plywood or MDF).

Arrange the speakers 2 x 4 configuration on the front baffle, as close together as you can get them and as close to the bottom of the box as you can get them to leave room for a horn driver and port up top (should have about 6-8" of baffle space remaining). flush mount the woofers if you have the ability.

Use a decent 1" compression driver for the mid-high frequency. Mount in the center of the top of the front baffle above the woofers.

I would probably suggest these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-204
and:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-312

Optionally:
Cut out 4" x 8" square holes on either side of the horn up at the top of the front baffle. That will improve bottom end efficiency by a few dB. I would suggest listening to the system with sealed boxes first and see if it has enough bottom end for your tastes, if lacking, then I would suggest cutting the holes. (They will act as "ports" and will tune the box to ~40hz).

crossover should look something like this: (x-over around 850hz or so)



Without compete simulation the X-over above should only be considered an example and not a proven concept. An adjustable L-pad should probably be wired to the horn driver so you can tame down the upper frequencies.

[CADman_ks]

First post here, this seems as good a place as any to start throwing my 2 cents in

Thanks for the help. Like I said, I think that I can build antyhing, I just don't know what to build, so I'm soaking up all suggestions at the moment.

I would build the boxes with relatively wide front baffles. maybe ~30" wide, by 48" tall inside dimensions, 24" deep would be enough space (~20ft^3). (those dimensions should be friendly to getting good use out of standard 4x8ft plywood or MDF).

One thing that I did forget to mention in my original post, is that I have these speakers mounted to the wall in my shop about 8' off of the ground. That way, they are out of the way, and I don't accidentally run into them or hit them with something. Probably not the most ideal situation for sound transfer, but they are a lot safer up there. But, a box 24" deep probably wouldn't hang to well on the walls, where I currently have them located, so I'm not for sure how well that would work for me.

Use a decent 1" compression driver for the mid-high frequency. Mount in the center of the top of the front baffle above the woofers.

I would probably suggest these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-204
and:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-312

So, here I am showing my ineptitude... I looked at the specs of this compression driver, and it only goes to about 9 KHz (as I read the specs). Wouldn't these speakers suffer a little on upper end? I'm envisioning that things like cymbals and that type of stuff might not be as distinct. But this doesn't come from experience, as much as it comes from me reading around on the 'net, trying to figure out what might work, and what might not work. I also realize that some people don't want that high crashing cymbal sound, and while I don't either, necessarily, I still want it to be there to some extent. I don't want it to sound like the performers were hitting the cymbals with rubber mallets.

CADman_ks

[Alaric]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-702

and a craigslist sub ?

[mdocod]

Hello Cadman,

Generally speaking, if you want a lot of bottom end power to reach far you need either large boxes (and ideally wide baffles), or lots of amplification power. While systems ~100WPC are generally very overkill for most home stereo listening (small rooms), your shop represents something more like a small venue in size and while ~10-100WPC can still be plenty of power to fill it with loud clean sound, the only way to do so is with large, efficient speaker designs. slightly more compact boxes with equally good efficiency are very possible, but not within the budget listed as you would have to plan on nicer quality bass drivers.

If you want much smaller boxes, you'll need much more amplification power to overcome the efficiency losses. See... I'm suggesting a build that would be ~100dB@1W@1M sensitive. Which with ~100W of amplification, would be 120dB@1M per speaker, (~126dB with both channels driven).... The problem is, you aren't 1M from your speakers. That ability to reach ~120dB@1M is fairly important if you want to listen "loud" (100-110dB) on the other side of a 72' long shop. If you build compact speakers, (long throw woofer/s with high moving mass, high power handling, and low sensitivity), then the sensitivity of the system will likely drop to ~85-90dB@1W@1M per channel, which means that in order to listen loud on the far end of the shop, you are going to need more like 1000WPC amplification. (I'd be suggesting this: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-504)

As for the lack of output above ~10K. Keep in mind that just like the bottom octave (~20-40hz), the top octave (10-20K) of the typical listening "range" is seldom present in a meaningful way in musical programs. Also, many people can't even hear above 10K. If you really did feel something were missing, adding a piezo horn to fill out the top would be relatively inexpensive and easy to "mod in" at a later time anyways. Just leave some baffle space remaining up top for it.

[---k---]

I'm curious though, why are you recommending a speaker design that you haven't fully simmed, built or tested? A design that you say is "not a proven concept". Especially to someone who hasn't built a pair of speakers previously. Seems a bit irresponsible.

[CADman_ks]

Hello Cadman,

Generally speaking, if you want a lot of bottom end power to reach far you need either large boxes (and ideally wide baffles), or lots of amplification power. While systems ~100WPC are generally very overkill for most home stereo listening (small rooms), your shop represents something more like a small venue in size and while ~10-100WPC can still be plenty of power to fill it with loud clean sound, the only way to do so is with large, efficient speaker designs. slightly more compact boxes with equally good efficiency are very possible, but not within the budget listed as you would have to plan on nicer quality bass drivers.

Thanks again for the reply. I may have mislead people a little bit with my OP title. It makes it look like I want to fill the whole place with really loud sound, and that's not necessarily what I'm after. The cheesy, cheap speakers that I have in there currently (2 different pairs), can actually "fill" the space, and I can hear the music anywhere in there, and even outside for that matter. However, they have NO bass to really speak of, and that's more the part that I would like to fix. But, I still want to be able to turn it up every know and then as well, so some SPL would be nice. Again, any more SPL than I have currently is not really a hard thing to do.

The other thing that's nice (for me) about a bonafide, proven plan that's totally laid out, is that I don't have to figure anything out. Now, that doesn't mean that I can't, I just don't want to spend a lot of money putting these things together, and then I find out that there is "something" about them that doesn't work, and I have to change some components, or several components. For me, since I don't this for a full-time hobby, I don't have any pieces for any speaker laying around. I would literally have to start over every time. That could lead to frustration pretty quickly.

The other bonus about building speakers like the Stentorians, is that IF they don't work in my shop for some reason, I could put them in the house, and use them there. So that wouldn't be a total loss for me either.

I do appreciate all of the feedback and input though.

CADman_ks

PS: At one point, I actually thought about building some Klipsch horn replicas for the shop, but I quickly realized that I didn't want to spend THAT much time building those, and researching it all. I don't live in my shop, just spend some time out there...

[CADman_ks]

I think you're on the right track with used pro speakers (15" with a horn tweeter). They can be had for less than the cost of the drivers & are probably the best (in budget) way to fill that space. Adding a horn sub later is a great suggestion.

Maybe I just need to learn to be a little bit more patient, but that just isn't in my DNA for whatever reason.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I just WANT to build some speakers. Who knows.

There's been a posting locally for some stage speakers that have dual 15's and a top loaded horn. I would think that those would work great. The only problem, the guy won't answer my emails about the availability, and I think that he still has them. No phone number. No texts. Just the craigslist email...

CADman_ks

[CADman_ks]

I'm curious though, why are you recommending a speaker design that you haven't fully simmed, built or tested? A design that you say is "not a proven concept". Especially to someone who hasn't built a pair of speakers previously. Seems a bit irresponsible.

That's OK. I get the concept, and IF this was something that I wanted to do, I would think (hope) that I could either do the research, or find the resources on the 'net to help me determine if they would work, or find a combination that would work.

But, one thing that's makes me pause a little bit about a design like this, is that I'm totally stuck with it in the shop, or I dismantle the pieces and sell them. That's ultimately what I like about a proven design. If it doesn't work out in the shop, I can move them inside.

But, probably even more than that, the more that I think about this, I'm not for sure that I need 100dB SPL. I know that I'm not there now by any means, and it can get loud in there now, just not any kind of "quality" mildly loud, let alone turned up more. Not even close.

I just thought about something that I've never thought about trying.

I have a set of Klipsch KG-2's in the house. I ought to take them out there, and see how much better they sound out there, than what I have currently. I'd guess that it won't be any contest. The KG-4's are more or less "tiny" speakers, and they can crank it up. The only issue with KG-4's, is that they have passive radiators, and I don't know if I can get them close enough to a wall to do any good. They are pretty sensitive about how close they are to the wall...

CADman_ks

[mdocod]

I'm curious though, why are you recommending a speaker design that you haven't fully simmed, built or tested? A design that you say is "not a proven concept". Especially to someone who hasn't built a pair of speakers previously. Seems a bit irresponsible.

Maybe you forgot the budget or forgot that this is not an SQ build or forgot the size of the venue or that I made it clear that it was not simmed up. Either way, there is nothing irresponsible about sharing an idea. I believe that your position on the matter comes across as a bit snobby and I would argue that said position gives audiophiles a bad name. I have seen this sort of attitude from many enthusiasts in the industry, and to be honest, find it rather counterproductive. Why not add to the idea, help out with the idea, rather than try to tear it down?

Now.. I happen to agree that for $250, the simple route is a set of cheap PA speakers with some decent woofer surface area. However, I would like to point out, that such a speaker, at that price point, is not likely to be any flatter or or have better off-axis response than the build I proposed. The reason being at that price, you can't expect the company who slapped it together to have spent any significant time simming, modeling, or measuring. And even if they did, they will often settle for the cheaper x-over rather than the one that provides the flatter response in order to meet the price point. The build I'm proposing has room in the budget for quality components in the x-over (air core inductors, poly caps etc) while still meeting the budget. The proposed crossover is just a starting point and an attempt at a sim should be performed. The problem of course is finding a response chart for the inexpensive drivers.

Eric

PS: the box size and venting was simmed up before making the suggestion

[mdocod]

Another "idea"...



6x http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=299-155
1x http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-455
1x http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-306
(per speaker).

The above is simmed with an 8ft^3 box tuned to ~45hz, however, dropping down to as small as 5-6ft^3 would work, tuned to ~50-55hz instead. The x-over is pretty simple, low cost low value components.

I would suggest an adjustable Lpad rather than the resistors on the horn driver. The sim was built based on some sensitivity assumptions that may not hold up to be true, but the good news is that it has been simed based on worse case scenario for sensitivity rather than best case, so in theory, the system may actually be more sensitive than the sim suggests, but the Lpad values may have to change to taste in order to get the highs and lows to line up as well as they do in the sim. (T/S parameters for the woofers suggest ~91db@1w1m sensitivity, however, the frd file I found for the driver online shows more like 88db@1W1M sensitivity, I opted to assume the lower, also, I yanked ~3dB off of the selenium driver since it's sensitivity chart is based on a 45x45 horn, rather than the 60x60 I am suggesting).

Eric

[CADman_ks]

The saga continues...

I think that all things happen for a reason. This is a long post, but this is my story today...

In an earlier post, I said that I should take out my KG-2's and test them out there, to see how they performed. I did that, and I was a little bit surprised by what happened next. I know that in the shop I have one pair of speakers that are somewhat "decent", and I have one pair that it is pretty much junk. I put the KG-2 about where the crap speakers were, and left the "decent" ones where they were (more on that later in the post).

First off, don't throttle me, cause I know that I am not doing this right, but I did it anyway.

I didn't want to go to work and get the $3000 hand held dB meter, so I thought that I would download one for my phone and use that. NOTE: I realize that this is not the same, but I reasoned that it should at least be apples to apples, IF this was the only meter that I used.

My EQ has a pink noise generator, so I put that on, and did some testing of the overall SPL. I recorded the following measurements:

Mid point = about the center of all of the speakers
40' = a point about 40' away from the center

All speakers:
Mid point - 82 dB
40' - 78 dB

Current mains:
Mid point - 84 dB
40' - 79 dB

KG-2s:
Mid point - 85 dB
40' - 81 dB

But, I was puzzled by these numbers, because from my EAR, it appeared that the mains were louder, and they definitely had more bass than the KG-2, which really surprised me. BUT, I would have to say that overall, the KG-2's still sounded better, and that's partly because the sound coming out of them is very very crisp compared to my mains.

Hummm, I thought. I need to do some research on these mains that I have, and see what the deal is. I got them from a garage sale that my in-laws were having. They came with the stereo, and it was going to be my main stereo in the shop. It was a Zenith stereo, what's called the "wedge" model. It also had some Zenith Allegro speakers. The stereo had decent power, and really worked pretty well, but there were two things wrong with it 1) the radio part didn't work worth a crap in my metal shop 2) it was a fricking behemoth!, and it soon found another home in the landfill, but I kept the speakers for my mains.

So, as I researched it on the 'net today, I found out that these are Zenith Allegro 3000 speakers. They have 10" woofers, and Foster horns, and are bass reflex speakers. They are crossed at 2500Hz.

Once I realized that they had 10" woofers, it was a little bit clearer why it feels like there's more bass coming out of these than my KG-2's which only have 8" woofers. And to be fair, they have passive radiators on the back, and I couldn't place them against a wall, so I was losing a little bit there as well. But one thing about the KG-2's is that they are very efficient, and I think that my numbers show that, even with my phone meter, since they were louder volume for volume.

So, as a final test then, I did this:

All speakers, playing Rush, Tom Sawyer, volume at 3/4:
Mid point - 90 dB
40' - 90 dB

I repeated this with some Boston, and the results were the same. If I could get the sound to 90 dB at the midpoint, it was as loud 40' away. My ears didn't say that it was as loud, but the meter did. But, at the end of the day, I think that I may need to rethink my whole, "play it loud every now and then." HOLY CRAP!!! I might be getting old, but 90dB with the music on was even past 11 on my comfort level. It was LOUD. FRICKIN' LOUD. I even went outside, and with all of the doors shut, I could hear it, and understand 100' away!! (my building is not insulated)

So, I'm thinking at this point that the whole Stentorian thing is definitely the way to go. Those get to pretty high SPL's with very little input, and that should work out great in the shop, and if I still want to go to 11, I should have the room, and probably even make it 12 or 13, and like I said, I'm getting way too old for that. With about 15" of equivalent woofer, those things should have AT least as much bass as the Zeniths, and I think overall should sound pretty darn good in my shop.

So that brings me to the point that all things happen for a reason.

When I got these from my father-in-law, he had them hung in their house with some SMALL hinges, and these things are fairly heavy, about 30 lbs each (I'm guessing). I didn't think too much about it when I mounted them in the shop, and used his hinges. They had been holding this whole time at his house, and I figured that they should work OK in the shop as well.

But, as I was researching the Zenith speakers, I was looking for the backing plate information, and I had to lift up the speakers. I was lifting one of them up to find the plate, and the hinge let go from the speaker, pulling out of the particle board housing! 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O Luckily, I was standing on something, and it kind of fell down on a shelf, and didn't fall totally to the ground. I quickly supported it enough so that it wouldn't fall, and go me some real screws, and repositioned the hinge. I checked the other speaker while I was at it, and I decided that I should probably change it as well, so I did.

But, at the end of the day, I think that this happened for a reason. It was someone, somewhere, telling me, nudging me, prodding me, telling me, "Do you those damn components ordered yet for the Stentorians?"

I went inside after getting everything secured, and the shop put back in order, and pulled the trigger.

CADman_ks