Help to choose new mid range driver for 3 way project

[harryharry]

I have built many speakers during the last 15 years however one project I have never completed. 10 years ago it started out as an bookshelf speaker with the Seas Excel W17E001 and Seas Excel T25CF001. Then I added a stereo sub/bass-woofer to the system via active crossovers. First I used VIFA PL26 10" drivers. I later switch these with a pair of Seas Excel W26FX001.

After at least 4 complete redesigns of the passive crossover for the top speaker I switch the tweeter with a FOUNTEK NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter and tried several different crossover designs for this setup. Then I switched the tweeter again to Scan Speak 6600 Air Circ tweeter. This tweeter I really like. And now I have used a crossover design with steep filters and low crossover point (about 2kHz) to the W17 woofer. However the W17 driver has some nasty 3rd order harmonic distortion at about 1700hz and going to low with the SS 6600 does not sound good in my ears.

The reason why I have kept this speaker for so long is that it sounds good. It is for sure my best speaker. However I am not completly satisfied and the search for the perfect sound is one of the things this hobby is about.

So now I have desided to redesign this speaker with a new enclosure and a new mid range driver. So I plan to use the SS 6600 and the Seas Excel W26 10" woofer. I use an infinite baffle sub below 50 Hz.

The obvios choice for a mid range unit is of cours Seas Excel W12 or W15 however other alterantives I have been looking at are ATC SM75-150(S) and PHL 1120. I plan to use the driver in a closed or ported box.

Any suggestions?

[Jonasz]

I was thinking the obvious W15 crossed at 1,5-2kHz to the 6600. :B

Another rather unorthodox option is the B&W 6" FST midrange. These can be crossed much higher than the Excel options, have excellent distortion data (if crossed around 350Hz or higher) and has a lot of healthy sensitivity. They can be bought directly from B&W for about $300.


More information about it can be had in this thread. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=38667

[5th element]

It all depends on what your design goals are. The B&W is indeed a great driver but when crossed over higher will exhibit the usual off axis suck-outs due to beaming.

A W15 crossed over at 1.5-2khz won't show much issue with beaming if at all and will sound extremely good. I have always been a fan of the W15 and it's hard to go wrong with it when crossovered successfully. I'd say a 4th order acoustic target @ 2khz is about as high as you'd want to take it if you've got a capable tweeter.

Another midrange option (and inexpensive) is the ZaphAudio ZA14 , excellent numbers all round and more sensitive then the W15 to boot.

Zaph has also just measured a very inexpensive Vifa 3.5" full range driver that shows incredible distortion performance from a midrange point of view and they have a lot of flexibility built into their smooth and extended frequency response





If you can easily get a hold of a pair these would seem cheap enough simply to try out even if just on a whim. It really depends on how much extra you'd have to spend/work you'd need to put in, to actually try them out.

[JonMarsh]

Wow- that Vifa is pretty remarkable from 300 Hz up!

I can endorse the Zaph ZA14, too, having a set of four and having measured them; just lacking time to finish the build!







Given the dispersion and distortion behavior, a crossover up to 2500 Hz might be though reasonable, depending on the slope, but my normal inclination would be to suggest lower, for keeping consistent dispersion.

[harryharry]

The B&W driver looks really interesting. However the price seems to have gone up quite a bit and I do not know how easy it is to order it.

The ZA14 seems to be a good alternative to the W15. The nonlinear distortion is better and it can be crossed a bit higher. However I think I will go for the Seas W15. Since I am going to use W26 these drivers will match in looks. It is also much easier to get hold of the W15 in Norway.

So my Christmas project will be a W26 + W15 +SS6600 passive three way speaker. I will try to post the crossover design and some pictures when it is ready. I think I will go for closed box for both the woofer and the mid driver.

For the enclosure I am thinking something in the line like this:




Or maybe this:


Wilson Watt clone:

[Jonasz]

Jensen Accu?

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Jenzen-Accu.htm

[5th element]

I hear you about availability issues to us non Americans, I wish we had a madisound in the UK The W15 should do great.

[Tieftoener]

If you're budgeting for the Excel series, I'd vote very heartily for you to consider the Scan Speak 15W Revelators. IMO, the Excels are not the same league as the Revelators... of course I'm just one vote and the Excel's certainly have a huge following.

[harryharry]

I have another two way speaker where I use the SS 15W8530K00 (Zaphs ZD5). This is a very good and smooth sounding speaker. However I feel the SEAS Excel line has more detail and is more transparent than the SS 15W.

I have done many blind tests with my wife who is a musician. (My way of evaluating my own perseptions.) She plays the french horn. She prefer my SEAS Excel build (W17) over the SS 15W in most cases. She says the speaker sounds more correct at least for classical music. This is particulary evident for brass instruments. I also have another build where I use the Seas L12. The L12 has a similar sound as the Excel line however the sound is not as transparent.

The Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU8731T-00 looks interesting or even the SS 15M. However if W15 is crossed low this seems to be a good choice.

[Tieftoener]

Hi Harry,

I guess rather than debating and jacking the thread, we'll have to agree to disagree No heart feelings... enjoy what makes you happy, and crank it up :righton:

Regards,
Scott

[Bear]

The Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU8731T-00 looks interesting or even the SS 15M. However if W15 is crossed low this seems to be a good choice.

I've seen a lot of tests (e.g., Voice Coil) that would cause me to question whether the 12M is worth the premium over the little SS 10cm mid. Then you have to compare both to the SEAS and Zaph competitors, etc.

Note that for the Clearwave Duet, which you pictured, above, the original versions ("budget") used the SS 15W/4531.

[harryharry]

Well, things move slowly with small kids in the house.

I still have not decieded on the midrange unit. After extensive testing I have decieded not to use Seas Excel for the mids. Even though they give a very detailed sound. I feel the Scan Speak has more musicality to it and give some more substance to the sound. I also experience more listening fatigue when I listen to the Excel mids.

Another hot candidate is the Accuton C173-6-191E. This is expensive but cheaper than the C173-6-090.

So my setup will be:

Tweeter: SS 6600 Air Circ
Mids: SS 15W8530K00 or C173-6-191E
Bass: Seas W26 (Excel magnesium)

Under 50Hz I use an infinite baffle (with 2ea 18" FI IB3)

Any recommendations for the mids?? I have never build anything with the Accutons. I have heard one system with similar Accutons and maybe felt that even if they give a very revealing sound the sound is a bit uninvolving??? I have only heard it on one occation and it might be the room, the crossover or the other equipment in the setup that made me come to this conclusion.

I am really looking for a musical mid which do not easily yield listening fatigue.

[craigk]

the SS15W is very hard to beat. it is one of the more musical drivers out there. it is a little less detailed, maybe, than some other drivers. i am using this driver in a 2 way design that paul carmody built, it is on his website. the design is the SS and a hiquphon tweeter. when compared to my main system speakers, focal Novas, they more than hold there own. the SS is very musical, maybe a touch on the warm side, but i think this along with a great tweeter and design, lends to no listening fatigue in this 2 way. just my 2 cents worth. i will also add that i have listened to several designs with the accutons. 95 % of the designs i did not like, a little on the cold side and something usually just not right. when ceramic sounds bad, it sounds very bad. i will give credit where credit is due. the 5% of designs that i did like, were very good. i think that the accutons might be a little more difficult to work with and voice. when you listen to a pair of martens or talon audio speakers, someone knows what they are doing. good luck and keep us updated.

[harryharry]

I finaly ended up buying the Accuton C173-6-191E. Both the Scan-Speak 15W and the Seas Excel W15 would have worked fine, but since I have used these drivers before I want to try something new. This Accuton driver is not as expensive as the C173-6-090, but a bit more expensive than both the Seas and the SS.

So the three way will look like this:
Tweeter: Scan Speak 6600 Air Circ
Mid way: Accuton C173-6-191E
Woofer: Seas Excel W26-001 (magnesium)

[5th element]

The C173-6-090 imo is a completely different beast when compared to the 191E and the similarities basically end with the fact they use a similar type of cone.

If not the C173/90 then I'd have chosen to use one of Accutons 5" mid range drivers as they have a cleaner midrange and will have better dispersion.

Of course the 191E does offer flexibility should you decide at some point that you want to build a two way with the driver instead of using it as a dedicated mid.

I do hope that you find the driver to your liking however (The C173/90 is rather ridiculously priced :E 8O ).

[slusho]

What are these? I have never seen a Sony speaker close to that nice!

[Face]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/sony-ss-ar1-loudspeaker

[gbegland]

I'm gonna throw the BG Neo10 out there. Spectacular from 300-3000hz

Greg

[agrippa]

Wow... those sony's cost $27,000. I wonder what the drivers are? The Mid is clearly a scan speak (modified most likely).

[Face]

Wow... those sony's cost $27,000. I wonder what the drivers are? The Mid is clearly a scan speak (modified most likely).

They're all SS drivers. After seeing them in person, they're not all that large.

[agrippa]

Thanks Face. The measurements seem unimpressive for 27k. I will take Zaph's ZRTs or some other DIY SS build over these and save my self 25 grand

[agrippa]

The Sony SS-AR1's measured performance indicates almost textbook design.....John Atkinson

Not really John.

[craigk]

unimpressive measurements or not, i have had the chance to listen to a pair and they are very good. i agree that 27 K is hard to justify, maybe impossible, but at that price they are a better deal than many of the other speakers in this price range and higher. my next project is goin to be very similar. the major difference will be an AMT tweeter and about 20,000 dollars in my pocket.

[agrippa]

I love Zaph's take on things zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html
It has changed the way I do things. I trust measurements more then my ears. Not to say I don't trust my ears but many times I hear a set of speakers and say "yeah, those sound good". Seeing the measurements while I listen helps me figure out what I am hearing.
I guess that I am off topic... mid range is what we are dealing with.

[Face]

I agree with Craig, they do sound nice.

[gbegland]

I agree with Craig, they do sound nice.

Yes, Scan Speak 15W is a great cone driver. Compared mine directly with the Neo10....Neo10 won to my ears and the 15W is sitting on a shelf. Much better sensitivity with the Neo10 too.
Greg

[harryharry]

Ok,

I ended up replacing the SS 6600 with the Beyma TPL150 AMT. I really like the sound of the AMT even though it is missing some decibels in the top octave. For me it is not a big problem. My hearing above 12 kHz is not as it was when I was younger.

So I ended up designed a speaker with the following drivers:

Tweeter: Beyma TPL150
Mid way: Accuton C173-6-191E
Woofer: Seas Excel W26-001 (magnesium)

I think the very fast AMT works well with the Accuton driver. The speaker plays acoustic music and jazz better than any of my designs. However I have big problems listening to most rock music with this speaker. The sound is to analytic and the dynamics is missing. The speaker is like a nice girl doing everything right however after the first date you get bored. I can not live with this speaker.

Now I will try to build something completly different using drivers made for the professional market. This speaker will most likely not be able to have the same low distortion plot as the old speaker however it will most likely be more involving and the dynamics will be much higher.

The speaker I am trying to build will consist of the following driver:

Tweeter: Beyma TPL150
Mid way: PHL 2530 (8")
Woofer: PHL 5011 (15")

A similar speaker has been constructed by Dieter Achenbach and has gotten good reviews: http://lsv-achenbach.de/kits/trinity15-8B.html (In German)

[Face]

Did you have the W26 sealed or ported?

[harryharry]

Did you have the W26 sealed or ported?

In the final version I used it ported. However I have also tested it sealed. The W26 is particulary strong above 100 Hz. Below there are other drivers that work better. I used it to 50 Hz where I have an infinite baffle sub taking over down to 15 Hz.