Newbie question - upgrading crossover

[teachme2]

Hello,

Does the quality of a crossover make a difference? I own a pair of Klipsch WF-35s and read that the quality of the x over is cheap. Would like to replace it myself if it makes a difference in sound quality. If yes, please recommend a 2500hz x over to purchase.

Why did I buy something pre-built - I simply didnt think to DIY at the time. Currently own 2 WF-35s and an HSU VTF 2 MK3 in a 3500 cft room, floorspeakers powered by Emotiva UPA 2 (125w@8ohms).

Thanks in advance! ;x( ;x(

[---k---]

Yes, the crossover can make all the difference in the world. Unfortunately, good crossovers are not easy to design. You can't just buy an off the shelf crossover and expect world class results. To get great results, the crossover has to be custom tailored to the drivers being used. Using an off the shelf crossover would likely be worse than what Klipsch has already provided.

There are some speakers out there that good crossover designers have offered mods for. One such case is Dennis Murphy's mod for the Insigna speakers:

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=insignia.html

I'm not sure if there is one for the Klipsch you have. If there were, I would be all for you trying it out. If not, I would recommend you leave them as-is and enjoy them. They look like they are a nice enough speaker. Nothing to be ashamed of. But, if you need a hobby project, you could consider selling them on craigslist and using the money to build DIY. You'll likely spend as much or more to get something similar in size, but it should be worth it.

[teachme2]

Cool, thanks for the advice.

So there is more to it than just the x over frequency? Looks like I have a lot to learn..

I see you are a fellow Chicagolander, great!! I really cannot put the time in now to build something and the current speakers do sound nice. Living in a high rise takes away from being able to really enjoy my speakers and sub. This gives me lots of time to plan my build and get it right. I will likely start with a nice subwoofer, since I am obsessed with bass

[Undefinition]

Ohh. I got this.

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-mfaq

[teachme2]

Thanks for the link. I will check out some of those books mentioned. I understand there is a lot more to this than we can cover in a few posts.

[pomeroy250]

WF35 The truth

After re-reading found it too harsh, irresponsible and more of a rant. Not an appropriate message especially for a newb. My apologies to the community.

[cjd]

Wow, nothing like some bland comments about quality based purely on origin followed by some bad advice.

[pomeroy250]

Pic of WF35 crossover

Thought I tossed them.


Bottom shows 16g speaker wire next to wiring inside cabinet.

[Hdale85]

Honestly I don't see much problem there, and pretty common with speakers in that price range. Just because you don't see ultra premium caps and resistors and stuff doesn't mean they aren't good. Could they be better? Of course after all they were designed with a strict budget in mind.

As for the gauge of the wiring, generally for main you don't need anything heavy gauge. Usually 18ga is ok for most applications, which is what it looks like they used.

The bad advice you gave was to grab some off the shelf crossover from PE and pop it in. That's terrible advice on so many levels.

All your negative comments can be aimed at just about any speaker in the 1500/pair range honestly.

[cjd]

Nothing particularly wrong with the components I can identify (though that's tough to do with just a snap so I could be incorrectly identifying stuff) - poly or mylar caps, air-core inductor... sand-cast resistors. Can't tell what the black blob is on the "bottom" of that snap. It's similar quality, I think, to the Dayton board you recommended (which will simply not work as well since it assumes perfect impedance and frequency response and a perfect level match between drivers... all incredibly unlikely.) The low gauge wire is probably super long so the impedance isn't likely much of an issue.

Is it what a DIYer would do? Wire, not likely. Components? Probable you'll see worse stuff in good quality DIY designs given a nod, with upgrades optional. And designs that would probably compete with the Klipsch on price were they commercial, maybe a bit heavier gauge inductors average and higher voltage caps, possibly a bit nicer one on the tweeter... but we can, and we don't mind an additional $20 here or there DIY, but you'd not want the mark-up commercially.

Is it possible to upgrade the components? You bet! Absolutely.

I'd also bet the stock crossover produces reasonably good frequency response (unless Klipsch has gone way off the path, every one I've seen measured is tuned pretty well - bit more BBC dip than I like and a little hot on top, though far less hot than most of the popular competition in that price range) - something the Dayton crossover is unlikely to do.

C

[pomeroy250]

I would agree that dropping a generic x-over in is a bit irresponsible. I had a few laying around and just tried one then A-B'd with the stock.

Maybe I got lucky and the Dayton was a fairly good match. All I can tell you is that the difference was very noticible and to a person the Dayton speaker was chosen in a blind listening test.

The wiring internally on the stock is 24G from what I could compare to. In the end what I noticed was a cleaner bass and a hotter and much clearer mid-high end.

To open a speaker and find a $2-$3 x-over, 24g wiring, maybe $50 in drivers and a cabinet made out of I- don't- know- what is a bit disheartening when you are reminded that they are listing for $1500/pr.

Arguing that other s are the same doesn't make it acceptible to me. You're just playing into the manufacturers hand and supporting the bean counters while doing the industry no good.

[CWH&R]

I would agree that dropping a generic x-over in is a bit irresponsible. I had a few laying around and just tried one then A-B'd with the stock.

Maybe I got lucky and the Dayton was a fairly good match. All I can tell you is that the difference was very noticible and to a person the Dayton speaker was chosen in a blind listening test.

The wiring internally on the stock is 24G from what I could compare to. In the end what I noticed was a cleaner bass and a hotter and much clearer mid-high end.

To open a speaker and find a $2-$3 x-over, 24g wiring, maybe $50 in drivers and a cabinet made out of I- don't- know- what is a bit disheartening when you are reminded that they are listing for $1500/pr. Other brands I would assume are similar like you say but you have to admit that using cheap components and cheap foreign labor then telling us up and down about the quality is just plain horseshit.

Arguing that other s are the same doesn't make it acceptible to me. You're just playing into the manufacturers hand and supporting the bean counters while doing the industry no good.

Looking at a Hallmark Christmas card that shows a traditional heart-warming American scene then flipping it over and seeing $6.75 "Made in China" just sickens me when your neighbor lost his job, house and family. I don't buy anything from them anymore.

Got away from topic a bit . Just pissed at supporting the selling out of America.

+1
:T

[Hdale85]

I'm sorry but I don't think that's 24g wire. I have some 24g wire and it's pretty tiny. Also I think it would cost you more then 2-3 dollars to build that crossover with similar quality in parts.

[cjd]

That is not a $2-3 crossover. At cost it might be a $20-30 crossover.

Agree on box. And totally get being disappointed. I'd guess you have about $150 in parts at cost.

The reason I DIY is because I have no interest in playing to these manufacturers...

[Alaric]

Now I'm a-scared to peek at my speaker's innards.

[AdelaaR]

Hey ... at least you found a crossover ... that's good

[5th element]

I'd guess you have about $150 in parts at cost.

Which is perfectly in line with what is normal in the consumer industry. A ~10x mark-up from the raw cost.

Most of the time the retailer will be responsible for 50% of that, doubling the price they get them for off of the manufacturer. $750 for a pair of floor standing loudspeakers doesn't leave much behind for components once marketing/design, wages etc have been taken into consideration.

The crossover above looks perfectly normal and there don't appear to be any lytic caps in there either, so that's +1 for it.

If you like the Klipsch sound then perhaps design like this might be worth giving a go.

Or if you've got less demands for high SPLs or have a sub then this would be a good choice too.

Of course both of those require some effort in mounting the wave-guide, there are many other designs out there though without wave-guides if you want to drop it.

[Alaric]

Hey ... at least you found a crossover ... that's good

LOL. I know what you mean. Somebody dumped some really bad HTIB speakers at my place and I got curious. Two drivers and a resistor in the tweeter circuit. The plastic box should have been a giveaway.....

[AdelaaR]

I had an old 3-way here with no crossover whatsoever.
The speakers were AKAI's and all the drivers were also AKAI's so I assume they specifically made those drivers to match or at least close enough.
They sounded pretty good actually for what they were ... I go them for $5.

[---k---]

I would agree that dropping a generic x-over in is a bit irresponsible. I had a few laying around and just tried one then A-B'd with the stock.

Maybe I got lucky and the Dayton was a fairly good match. All I can tell you is that the difference was very noticible and to a person the Dayton speaker was chosen in a blind listening test.

The wiring internally on the stock is 24G from what I could compare to. In the end what I noticed was a cleaner bass and a hotter and much clearer mid-high end.

To open a speaker and find a $2-$3 x-over, 24g wiring, maybe $50 in drivers and a cabinet made out of I- don't- know- what is a bit disheartening when you are reminded that they are listing for $1500/pr. Other brands I would assume are similar like you say but you have to admit that using cheap components and cheap foreign labor then telling us up and down about the quality is just plain horseshit.

Arguing that other s are the same doesn't make it acceptible to me. You're just playing into the manufacturers hand and supporting the bean counters while doing the industry no good.

Looking at a Hallmark Christmas card that shows a traditional heart-warming American scene then flipping it over and seeing $6.75 "Made in China" just sickens me when your neighbor lost his job, house and family. I don't buy anything from them anymore.

Got away from topic a bit . Just pissed at supporting the selling out of America.

Obviosly, you do not tin a business. Please spend time and money designing a speaker, marketing, distributing, stocking it, and selling it, and depot back to us. Sure, you might be able to do it cheaper Internet direct without marketing, but that isn't what people want. They want cheap speakers shiney speakers and lots of they at Best But five minutes away. Bose is very very successful. They give people what they want. To think otherwise is foolish. Klipish is giving people what they want. You don't like it, there are lots of options out there, buy something else.


And ive heard speakers that people think are better. Yeah.....

[pomeroy250]

I know a bit about marketing having owned a business myself. I also have designed and built from scratch more speakers than probably anyone here.

Not having bought speakers in decades has given me a bias towards DIY. Back in my youth I had always desired a pair of Klipsches after seeing them at Musicraft (remember them?) and other long gone b & m stores. These WF35's seem to be a shadow of what I remember.

[madmac]

5% of people will buy 'good' speakers (Members here!!). 95% of people will buy crap because it's cheap and they simply do not care about good sound. Most people don't sit down in front of their speakers and listen to music. Most of them listen to it from the other room!!. That 95% represents a lot of money for stores so that's the garbage most of them carry. Many 'non audiophile' people (that 95%) still think Bose is a high end speaker!!.

[Hdale85]

I also have designed and built from scratch more speakers than probably anyone here.

That's a big comment since some people here have been building speakers for 20 or more years.

[pomeroy250]

These are most of my projects. All from scratch except for the 2 stated in description. I don't like making square boxes as you can tell. Too easy and boring.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=246853

This is one not on there...

[Hdale85]

Well, You've got quite a few things there, also some commercial stuff. Still don't think you're quite up to the speaker count of Thomas or Jon haha. Some nice looking boxes though.

And do you use the PE crossovers for all these? Do you take driver measurements in baffle and design from there? Custom crossovers?

[pomeroy250]

I picked up a few PE x-overs on sale and used them on a couple of boxes but 90% of my builds utilized LEAP and DIY hardwired x-overs. Here are a couple examples. One a Bi-ampable 3-way and the other for a 2-way monitor.

The x-overs run me around $150 to $350 a set. I could have saved a bunch and built one like the WF35s for about $10/ea. retail but that wouldn't have given me the same performance I'm pretty sure.

[pomeroy250]

Well, You've got quite a few things there, also some commercial stuff. Still don't think you're quite up to the speaker count of Thomas or Jon haha. Some nice looking boxes though.

You are right. I'm sure they've made some outstanding speakers. I am mostly intrigued by a challenging design and some of my cabinets have taken 2 months to build.

[Hdale85]

2 Months is fast.....I wish I had time like that lol. My last speakers took me something like 8 months. But I didn't have a very good space to build in either.