In-Khan Neatos

[Darren Salyer]

Hello, I've been lurking here for a few months and just recently registered.
I've been reading the thread about using In-Khan-Neatos as all 7 speakers in a 7.1 setup. My room will be 17x24 and will be a semi budget build as far as the electronics go. I own a remodeling company with a cabinet shop and can get pretty elaborate with the construction part, but the equipment part is where I'm lacking. (probably the opposite of most of you...)
I'm attaching an overhead of my room layout. I'd rather not do an AT screen, and would want to place my center under the screen and the front sides and rear into columns built into the walls.
I'm looking for a good sounding system, not necessarily the end all/be all ultimate system that some of you have the ear to appreciate. (I don't have that ear and at some point the law of diminishing returns says a lot of really great stuff would be wasted on me.)

So, as a start, would 7 In-Khan-Neatos work in a room this size, and/or is there a better choice (center especially)
Also is there a good DIY sub I could build a pair of for this room?
I'll update as I go, but I'm sure it'll be a slow build.
(The Lshape in the pic has changed with the screen wall moving to the back of that space and the left side of the L becoming the equipment room.)

[Darren Salyer]

Right wall.
My ceiling height is 10', entrance is at the rear with the seats on risers.

[Darren Salyer]

Screen wall. 17'wide I can change the stage/columns around to fit speakers.

[Darren Salyer]

Rear wall, again column spacing can be dictated by speaker placement.

[Darren Salyer]

Octagon ceiling layout.

[---k---]

Wow. Impressive layouts. Looks like it is going to be nice, with a lot of nice wood working.

Some thoughts:
Since we can't talk you into an acoustically transparent screen, you're somewhat size limited.

As I said in my PM, with a pair of good subs (a must), I think a 7.1 setup of In-Khans could work and would likely impress your wife and most friends. It might not impress the people here, but.... we're crazy.

Looking at your sketches, I'm having a hard time visualizing the vertical arrangement of the In-Khan below the screen. Now that I see it, it might work well to have 3 - Khancenters up front and use the In-Khans for the sides and rears. With dual 180 woofers will give you a little more headroom, but you're still limited in the midrange by 1-rs150. My gut says only us crazies would notice. I can try and test the In-Khan for you next week.

Someone I'm sure will pipe up and say, what about Height Speakers? Blah blah blah says that heights add more than rears. I have heights and a single rear. I think there might be a little merit to this, but it is too hard for me to test blindly. CJD has a funky triangular speaker with an RS150 and RS28 buried in his Ansonica thread. Consider that. They wouldn't be in-wall, but up high and out of the way are likely not very noticeable except for those looking.

For subwoofers, I'm not hip on what the best drivers are these days - especially since the Tempest-X drivers are no longer available. The Dayton RS 15" subs are very nice, but limited xmax compared to something like the Tempest, which is no longer available. Someone will suggest an IB subwoofer, which I think is a great solution. But, if you're the more traditional box subwoofer type of guy, I really think dual 15" subs Big ported boxes would make it fun. Sealed, I would be looking at 4. Subs get expensive fast. But man can they make an impression. Until you hear what having overkill in the subwoofer department sounds like, you can't begin to imagine what you're missing.

Have you any thoughts about the electronics you're going to run and where you're hiding them? I would like to know what type of power you're using. We'll probably be recommending a nice separate amp.

[Hdale85]

Just curious but why not an AT screen? A room like that is EXACTLY what AT screens are for....

[Darren Salyer]

Well, like I said, I'm a complete novice at this, but won't I lose a couple feet of room depth if I use an AT screen? A couple I've seen here have a false wall built out considerably into the room. I'm afraid if I do that, it'll move the screen too close to my front row of seats.
Also, I have no idea on equipment, but I do know I want to put it all into a rack hidden in the small room on the left.
I'd really like all the speakers hidden too, which is why I'm leaning towards building them into the columns.

[cjd]

If you can fit speakers next to the screen, you should be able to fit them behind it... I would think.

C

[Hdale85]

Agreed if they will fit in the columns it won't take much more space to get them behind the screen. How close is the front row and how big is the screen?

[Darren Salyer]

In doing my research, the In khan neatos are 10 1/2" deep, and the Khancenter is 16 3/4" deep. My plan was to do a bump out below the screen for a center, angled upward, and put the left and rights in columns built into the room.
So, my screen would be mounted right on the wall, and the speakers would be "inwall"
but not project beyond the rear plane of the screen.
If doing speakers behind the screen, do I need much more than the 16 3/4" that the Khancenter would require? If not, that would only cost me another 10" or so in depth.
And more importanly, would the sound be that much better, as I currently have no idea.
(That wall is already framed, but could be changed if necessary.)
I'm sure my questions must seem pretty basic for you guys, but this really is all new to me...except for the woodworking part, of course.

[Hdale85]

Even if you just put the center behind the screen it would be a huge improvement on making the sound/video sync way better. By the way you don't have to use a center channel speaker for the center, you can just do 3 in khan neatos behind the screen for LCR.

[Darren Salyer]

Here is what I'm thinking right now....
130" screen with first row seating right at 12' away and on an 8" riser.

[Hdale85]

2.35 or 16:9?

[Darren Salyer]

I'm not 100% sure.
At this point most likely 16:9.

[cjd]

Use SeymourAV screen if you're going to DIY it.

Go AT, build the in-khans 7" deep, use the RS-28F tweeters, and keep 2-3" between screen and speakers.

If you want a slightly more agressive sound (helps dialog at lower volume levels... I hate bleeding ears) I would be willing to share my WMTW design (though it uses the Seas 27TDFC tweeter, but RS150/RS180 pair) but I'm not publishing that design because it's a little tweaked and I'm afraid too many would complain. Works wonderfully for 75dB movie levels though. Past 95dB it starts to get a little off. Also it's only intended for use behind the Seymour AT screen.

C

[---k---]

CJD: I think he could use some pictures of your theater. Just to visualize how the speakers and screen work. You got them somewhere. There a thread here somewhere.

3 In Khans behind a screen w/ the RS28F was my first thought. But then I thought, what about the downward axist tilt... actually with the risers and rear row this might work to his advantage, if installed upside down.

And the depth is adjustable. You can get either design down shallower. The Khancenter can be built 10" deep if desired. Both could probably be slimmed down even more. I think CJD said 7" in the in-khan thread. But, deeper the better.

[Darren Salyer]

OK, So I spent half the night bleary eyed and researching screens....
My main reason for not wanting an AT screen was cost.
HOWEVER, after cjd mentioned the SeymourAV material, I think a DIY AT screen is very feasible.
Now for my next question in this ongoing saga... A curved screen looks well within my woodworking skill set, we do a ton of radius work as it is, and a CNC machine will make short work of a form for bending a laminated wood frame.
Worthwhile or not? And at that point does a 2.35 screen make more sense?
Thanks for all the advice so far. I've learned more the last 48 hours than the previous 48 weeks...

[Darren Salyer]

I dug out some old paperwork from a year or so ago.
I had a consult with a HT company who recommended the following

(3) B&W CT7.3
(4) B&W CT7.4
(2) ASW610 200w 10" subs.

How do you think the DIY setup we are discussing would compare?

[Hdale85]

Are you planning on using an Anamorphic Lens? If not you don't need a curved screen as the purpose of a curved screen is to correct the pin cushion effect that anamorphic lenses can have.

As for comparisons to B&W, not sure. The In-Khan-Neatos should be pretty nice and certainly I'd say at least as capable SQ wise if not more so. The B&W's though seem to have a nice large mid and dual woofers, so it technically should be able to get higher SPL's but that might not be true either. I guess it depends on how loud you want to go? I don't think you'd notice a loss in quality, maybe even notice a bit better quality possibly.

The subs though, you could easily build some 15" subs for what those ASW610's cost and you would notice a HUGE improvement because a 15" is going to go much lower and play much more effortlessly then a 10".

[---k---]

CJD has a curved screen. He built it himself with less tools than you have access to.

The In-Khans compared to the B&W... it is hard to say without more detailed specs and having listened to them. I don't even know the price of them. So, pure guesses. Based on B&W towers speakers I've heard in the past, I would anticipate the Khans to sound clearer, crisper and more detailed (as opposed to warmer in the B&W). The Khans I would expect to have sharper, more articulate bass from the metal cones versus paper cones. Based on size of the drivers (but I don't know the excursion), I would guess that the B&W with the extra bass and larger mid may have slightly more clean output potential. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. If that output potential was required, 3 - Khancenters would be closer, but still a little smaller when comparing diameter to diameter.

2 10" sealed subs? Come on! That is pathetic. If you want room shaking power, you got to do better than that. It might sound impressive in his tiny little 8 x 12 demo room. But it wouldn't come close to satisfying me. There is a big difference between hearing "boom" and feeling "boom".

Also, consider that typically, 1 - 12" = 2 - 10" subs and 1 - 15" = 2 - 12". And the larger diameter subs can go lower in frequency with more ease. If you're building, it isn't much more difficult to build a 15" sub than it is a 12", and the cost of the driver isn't much more. So, it usually makes sense to go for a 15" from the start. Smaller is reserved for those with size constraints.

I recommend a big ported sub for HT to get those low low frequency fun effects. Big subs may not fit your decor, but don't skimp too bad here. We might sound overkill, but just experience it once.... You can do it with small sealed but it takes a lot of amp and some kind of EQ to extend the low end, which can get complicated if your not an enthusiast. Small sealed, I might recommend one (or two ) of these: http://www.seatonsound.net/ Submersive subwoofer with dual 15" drivers and a dsp controlled 1000W amp. That is what it takes to make a theater fun. I heard the original several years ago when it was going on the market. Mark is a good guy with quality products.

[nk215]

Hello.

I have a pair of in-khan-neato in my bed room. They sound wonderful.

I tested the in-khan-neato (2) in my media room during the build process and found out that they couldn't really fill the room. My room however is more than 6300 ft^3.

I am in the process of building a THT LP sub (horn design, 21"x18"x72"). You may want to look into something similar especially when you can hide it behind the screen.

Don't forget to budget for
+ An amplifier.
+ Sound treatments.

[Darren Salyer]

I'm now thinking In-Khan-Neatos for the sides and rear and something with a little more punch behind the screen.

Aren't there some Statements that would work behind a screen?

[cjd]

Just do the Khanspires behind the screen

[Hdale85]

yea I'd do the same speakers for LCR.

[---k---]

Hello.

I have a pair of in-khan-neato in my bed room. They sound wonderful.

I tested the in-khan-neato (2) in my media room during the build process and found out that they couldn't really fill the room. My room however is more than 6300 ft^3.

I am in the process of building a THT LP sub (horn design, 21"x18"x72"). You may want to look into something similar especially when you can hide it behind the screen.

Don't forget to budget for
+ An amplifier.
+ Sound treatments.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you like them.

I'm not questioning you results, but would like to know more so that I can answer this question better in the future. How big is your media room? 26'x26' or so??? We're you listening to 2-channel music or movies with a center channel?


Also, what is the THT LP sub? I've built a THT sub with a 15" DVC for my brother, but what is the LP part? Is that same thing or something new? I didn't do sufficient testing to say for sure, I thought the THT had lots and lots of power output, but I didn't think it offered as much of that low low (<20hz) frequency output and I didn't think it had the clarity of my dual ported. It did really well with big booms, which is what most of HT is about, but I didn't experience it doing that subtle rumble.

[---k---]

I'm now thinking In-Khan-Neatos for the sides and rear and something with a little more punch behind the screen.

Aren't there some Statements that would work behind a screen?

The Statement's won't work near wall behind a screen because of the open back design. The fullsize Khanspires are the same size, with the same bass drivers, and slightly bigger midrange drivers.

[Darren Salyer]

I thought I saw a sealed Statement design somewhere...my bad.
So the Khanspires can be built in-wall.....
I was unaware of that.
For the center, would it be oriented horizontally or vertically?
I see a lot of center channels horizontally...

[Hdale85]

They can be placed behind a screen..... There isn't an in-wall design for the khans as far as I know.

[cjd]

On wall behind a screen, yes. Not in wall. But the Statements are so much further from being usable in wall...

Would you be building these into the wall behind the screen? I didn't think you were. Just make the screen wall acoustically transparent.

[Darren Salyer]

I'll post up a pic of my screen wall.
Basically i've studded it out about 6" off my foundation wall.
I'd like the speakers to be inwall with an AT screen mounted 4-6" in front of it.

[nk215]

Hello –k-

My media room is 15x31x14 (w l h). During test I had the 2 in-khan-neatos up in front around 2 feet of the wall and listened to them around 25’ away. They were connected to the earthquake cinenova amp. I ran 2 channels music for about 2 days (to zero in the stuffing before sealed in the backs).

I have (4) AV123 Onix Ref 3 setup in this room. Between the 2, I think the Ref 3s are better. The Ref 3 uses 2 Atohm 7”, 1 Vifa XT concentric ring radiator and a Magnetostat tweeter.

The LP stands for “low profile”. Basically, Bill just made the sub 72” long with half the width.

My ideal speakers for my media room would be something that’s around 6” thick, can be back against a front wall, around 10” from the side wall, toed into the listening position. I would pay for your set of drivers if you get around designing such speakers.

I have the in-khan-neatos in the master bed room (which is the size of a three car garage) and the speakers did very well. They are for mostly for 2 channel music and general TV watching at low volume.

Can you share the detail of your sub? I may build that next for another media room in the basement.

Thanks

[---k---]

Nick, thanks for the info. I'm glad you got the Onix Ref 3 are working for you. Yeah, that is a big room which could challenge small speakers. A few thoughts: The biggest thing is likely that you were trying to listen at 25'. I bet if you were listening at 10' and a second row at 15', your results might be different. Another thing I would mention, is it sounds like you had them 2' from the wall. Since they are made to be in-wall, the baffle step compensation would result in them having less bass the further they are pulled out from the wall. With reduced bass, they might sound thin and weak.

As for the sub, I didn't do a lot of documentation since there is a ton of THT build threads over at AVS. Some photos and stuff is spread throughout this thread:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905

This was good info. But, we should probably stop thread crapping. I would love to see some photos of your In-khans. Would you mind starting a new thread with some pictures. :T

[---k---]

I'll post up a pic of my screen wall.
Basically i've studded it out about 6" off my foundation wall.
I'd like the speakers to be inwall with an AT screen mounted 4-6" in front of it.

Darren,

Sorry, the internet gets confusing sometimes.... Sorry that I've added to it.

In-Khans are primarily designed to be flush mounted in a wall. But, they can be placed on-wall with only a little change in the overall sound.

The Khanspires are designed to be placed close to a wall. They can be placed on-wall by reducing the size of the inductors. There will always be wall bounce cancellation from placing speakers on wall, this would be the only negative. (the further out into the room the less the rear wall bounce cancellation)

The Statements are designed to be out in the room with 12+ inches behind them so that the open back design can release sound out the back that will bounce off the rear wall and come back at you and add to the open airy sound.

Jed of Clearwave Speakers designed a large horizontal center called the 2RCC. Jed designed the 2RCC to match the Statements, but to be placed horizontally with sealed mids for placement in a media center. It also add another mid (from the Statement Center design, but same as the full size). You can read more about this one here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31523&highlight=2rcc

Recently, in this thread Jed said that they would probably work well vertically as a Right and Left also.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39248

[Darren Salyer]

Darren,

Sorry, the internet gets confusing sometimes.... Sorry that I've added to it.

In-Khans are primarily designed to be flush mounted in a wall. But, they can be placed on-wall with only a little change in the overall sound.

The Khanspires are designed to be placed close to a wall. They can be placed on-wall by reducing the size of the inductors. There will always be wall bounce cancellation from placing speakers on wall, this would be the only negative. (the further out into the room the less the rear wall bounce cancellation)

The Statements are designed to be out in the room with 12+ inches behind them so that the open back design can release sound out the back that will bounce off the rear wall and come back at you and add to the open airy sound.

Jed of Clearwave Speakers designed a large horizontal center called the 2RCC. Jed designed the 2RCC to match the Statements, but to be placed horizontally with sealed mids for placement in a media center. It also add another mid (from the Statement Center design, but same as the full size). You can read more about this one here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31523&highlight=2rcc

Recently, in this thread Jed said that they would probably work well vertically as a Right and Left also.
https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39248

OK, what I THINK I'm hearing is that (3) 2RCCs would work good as Left Center and Right flush mounted behind an AT screen and that (4) in-Khan-Neatos would work well flush mounted as sides and rears.
Am I correct here?
If so, I have the parts cut out for the In-Khans already, and I could get started on the 2RCCs this weekend.....

[Hdale85]

Why wouldn't you just put all 3 speakers behind the screen? Then you don't have to worry about all this.....Or are you planning on having a wall behind the screen with teh speakers built in?

[Darren Salyer]

I'd like to build the 3 speakers into the wall behind the screen. I could mount the screen a few inches off the wall, but any more than that and my seating will be too close.

[Hdale85]

you can't sink the wall in at all behind the screen?

[Darren Salyer]

The face of my studded wall is about 12" off my concrete foundation wall.
I can build it out enough to get the speakers in wall, but thats about it.

[---k---]

Forgive me, i'm on holiday and trying to do this on a phone.

Looking at the photos of where the 2rcc was intended to be, I see no benifit to using three of them behind the screen rather than three full size khanspires. Both are designed for similar placement. Actually, the 2rcc has smaller mids and smaller woofers, but probably about the same price. But, it would be an upgrade output potential versus an inkhan or khancenter. Probably not as much versus the khacenter.

If you go the 2rccsame route, you'll have nice speakers up front, but they had differnt tweeter, differt mid, and differnt designer. They may not voice the same. Some would consider this a huge sin... I don't, but something to factor in.

If you're considering three 2rccof up front, I would tell you to consider three full size khans. There is a picture in the first post of someone who did that. There is lots of flexibiltiy in the height and depth of the speakers.

And don't get me wrong, the 2rccspeakers is a fine speaker, just I would keep it all the same...

Sorry, there is no tailored maid solution for you. Most designers just don't do inwall, so there aren't perfect options.

[Darren Salyer]

I'm quickly figuring out that I have a unique situation, and that i'm making it more difficult by my desire to hide the speakers and components.
I'm assuming the full size Khans you are referring wouldn't be feasible as an inwall or built into columns flanking the screen?
I'm sorry for my lack of knowledge here, but this truly is a case of "I don't know what I don't know"
It seems the more I research the more confused I get.

[Hdale85]

They aren't designed that way no, could you use them that way? Sure? would it be optimal? Probably not? Would you notice? Not sure. There just aren't any full size speakers that I know of that are designed in/on wall.

[cjd]

I'm not sure why you want to build two walls to be honest. If you were to just build the screen wall and make the while thing acoustically transparent, you'd need no second wall behind and could on-wall speakers behind it. Screen wall would then be about 14 inches out?

Otherwise yes. You are creating a setup that is quite unique and no one really has designs that will fit the bill perfectly.

[Darren Salyer]

I'll post up a pic of my setup.
I think somewhere we're getting crossed up.
I'm not to this point planning two walls.
This is in my basement and the screen wall is on an outside wall.
I currently have about 12" of depth between the face of my stud wall and the concrete foundation that I'd like to use for inwall speakers.
That depth is mandated by the main water line coming into the home, which I can't easily relocate.
So, if I were to build another AT wall in front of that wall, how much space would I need between them, and what would my speaker choices then be?

Thank you for all the help so far.

[Hdale85]

Honestly, I don't think you'd be able to notice a huge difference if your screen bumped out another 6" or so at your first row. With that said though I think you should just do 3 In-Khan-Neatos behind the screen. I honestly think you'll be happy with those and I don't believe they are anything to be embarrassed or disappointed about. If you want to go Khanspires then you're going to have to bump out your wall a bit and then likely design the cabinets around what you need. Probably 15" deep or so which is probably a bit more shallow then the originals. They aren't going to be as big as the originals and there for not extend as low likely.