Advice on speaker choices, Overnight Sensations

[Ntruder]

I am finishing my basement, around 2/3 complete with the center bar area, and being that I'm a member of this forum, I'm obviously planning some custom speakers, and I'm looking for a little advice.

First let me show you the plans and then I'll tell you what I've done and what my goals are. (I'm just going to post links because posting the pictures are large and they stretch the text box out too far and makes it tough to read)







Ok, so here's the plan and some relevant information:

-The TV in the bar area will share the output with the TV in the theater room. They will be sharing a DirecTV receiver

-Bar speakers will be on the rear channel (dual zone AVR) of my Pioneer Elite AVR, which I believe is rated at like 110watts per channel and has a 6ohm mode, so its basically fine to run 4ohm speakers.

-Bar speakers need to be loud enough to basically fill the bar area with sound from the TV or music from my HTPC in my theater room

-Furthermore, since the bar speakers will be sharing a receiver with my theater room next door, the bar speakers have to be approximately as loud as the theater room speakers, because there will be times when I will have BOTH sets of speakers playing; if someone is in the theater room and others are at the bar. So I can't have one set be dramatically louder than the other, because there is only one volume knob on my receiver.

-My theater room has Zaph ZA5.2 fronts and a 5.3 center channel, dual 10" subwoofers, and currently some HTiB rears

-Aesthetics are huge; more important than sound quality in fact. I plan to use HiVi drivers so I can color coordinate the custom concrete countertops and stained glass bar face inserts, all of which will draw from the color pallet of the terracotta slate on the walls.

This is precisely why I initially chose the Overnight Sensations as a potential speaker candidate. My logic was, I have the TM Zaph speakers (which use 5" woofers), and everyone raves about how "big" the Overnight Sensations sound, so I figured they'd be approximately as loud as my Zaph ZA5.2's.

So I went ahead and ordered the Meniscus Overnight Sensations kit with the HiVi tweeter and built them. I figured worst case scenario, I could use them as rear speakers for my HT. Plus its hard to feel like you wasted money on $109 speakers; I'd find a good use for them one way or another. Anyway, I built the Overnight Sensations, and they just are not going to cut it in terms of volume level. The sound quality is impeccable. They truly are stellar speakers, but I've dished up too big of a plate for them to handle. I probably should have known this (and kind of did assume it would be the case), but I'm very new to the DIY speaker scene and don't have a lot of experience.

I currently have 4ohm Cerwin Vega RE-30 floorstanding speakers (TMW with a 12" woofer) powering the bar area, and if paired with one of the Overnight Sensations, the OS is barely audible. When swapping the pair of CV's for the pair of OS's, I had to crank the volume level on my AVR from -30db to approximately -12db to get similar volume levels in the basement area. That's a pretty huge difference. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the fact that the 4ohm speaker is drawing more power than the OS, but I'm not really sure. I'm really not a speaker expert to any extent; hence, this thread. So I apologize in advance for posting anything stupid that should be obvious

When paired with a Zaph ZA5.2, the OS is noticeably quieter. Furthermore, to get acceptable volume in the bar area with the OS's, I had to have the volume level on the AVR to -12db. Now... -12db in the theater room on the Zaph ZA5.2 front 3 and dual subwoofers will make your head explode. So obviously this isn't going to work.

Basically I'm looking for suggestions. I need something that's going to be similar in volume level to my front 3 in my HT room. I'm still hooked on the Overnight Sensations. The style, price, and sound quality just cannot be beat. Would the MTM Overnight Sensations be a suitable choice given what I've stated? I believe Paul says on his website that they are 6db louder? I assume this would mean I'd have the same volume levels at -18db instead of -12db... This is still too loud for the theater room. I watch Blu Ray's at -25db. Beyond that I have to reduce the subwoofer gain. Anything louder than -20db in the theater room is insanely loud and just uncomfortable.

If the above logic is correct, why is my HT system so loud? Is it because there are so many drivers and I just have no chance of a stereo pair of speakers keeping up with it on the same volume level? Do I have to scrap the idea of sharing the AVR altogether?

Looking for a little guidance. I need to get this speaker situation done because its holding up my project. I need to get the cabinet schematics done so I know what parts of the wall not to tile...

Thanks in advance

[Undefinition]

That's a head-scratcher. I can definitely appreciate that aesthetics do matter, though.

I can see where a pair of TM Overnight Sensations would get swallowed up in a big room, especially when paired with much beefier speakers in a HT. (by the way, doesn't your receiver allow you to individually adjust the level of the channels?)

I have a feeling that the OSMTM would probably get you where you need to be, but no hard facts at this point.

[spy8181]

You have a few things working against you

First is Cerwin has always made very efficient speakers with very high sensitivities. RE-30s are at 97db and its a 4ohm speaker like you said

The hivi b4n has a 85db sensitivity and is a 8 ohm speaker. I dont know what the final OS sensitivity is.

The disparity in the difference is made worse if driven off the same amp where your receiver should output more wattage to a 4ohm load than a 8ohm load how much I do not know but it can be up to twice as much.

If you can't control the volume on zone 2 separately from you HT room your only option would be to pick a speaker with a sensitivity close to whatever the Zaph's are and the same ohm load.

If the MTM version is 6db louder than 85db, 91 db is still quite short or the 97db on the Cerwins but may get you closer to the Zaph's.

For reference 10db is twice as loud, doubling the number of speakers or watts gains you 3db.


This isn't a perfect explanation but I hope it helps.

[fbov]

+1, and then add the room size and this does make sense (see OP's pics). The HT space is much smaller, but has more speakers (5 vs. 2) so it gets more wattage (2.5x). The bar area doesn't stand a chance unless it's got higher sensitivity speakers.

Assuming you got the in-wall version (HT room's kind of small for free-standing), the mains are 87dB and the center more like 93dB (?). The HT room looks ~10x12 while the bar area looks like it's about 4x that size.
~ -9dB from fewer speakers, less power delivered
~ -6dB due to larger space.

You'll need ~100dB sensitivity speakers in the bar to get close to the same loudness in both bar and HT from the same amp.

Options
- pro-based speaker designs (Econowave would be low cost starting point)
- dual PE Point Source drivers (PS220 (Singularities) or PS180 (Drive-Ins) are single-driver designs)
- secondary amplifier, driven from pre-outs of primary amp.

Ironically, the last is the cheapest, especially considering the DTA-100 B-stock at $50. You'd use the DTA's volume control to set the bar area relative to the HT, and then continue as you planned. It sure makes the choice of speakers easier! Conversely, the PS drivers are ~95dB 8-ohm speakers, so a pair in parallel are ~101dB, but the drivers are not cheap, even if they're somewhat friendly to your esthetic requirements.

HAve fun,
Frank

[Ntruder]

That's a head-scratcher. I can definitely appreciate that aesthetics do matter, though.

I can see where a pair of TM Overnight Sensations would get swallowed up in a big room, especially when paired with much beefier speakers in a HT.

They certainly have the capacity to fill the room with sound. They can get very loud and they sound better and better as the volume level increases. Its that the volume level on the AVR is so high at this point that the HT room speakers are too loud. They'd probably hurt someone.

(by the way, doesn't your receiver allow you to individually adjust the level of the channels?)

Aha, that's a thought! I'm not sure why that never occurred to me. But that's why I ask the smart people. I'll check that out; I can set the levels of my front channel speakers, hopefully I can bump the gain on the second zone speakers a bit to even them out.

I have a feeling that the OSMTM would probably get you where you need to be, but no hard facts at this point.

They are significantly louder though with the same power, right? I thought I saw you say they were 6db louder somewhere.

I'm leaning heavy towards building the MTM's and using the TM's for my rear surrounds. (For $150, its hard NOT to build a set)

[Ntruder]

You have a few things working against you

First is Cerwin has always made very efficient speakers with very high sensitivities. RE-30s are at 97db and its a 4ohm speaker like you said

The hivi b4n has a 85db sensitivity and is a 8 ohm speaker. I dont know what the final OS sensitivity is.

The disparity in the difference is made worse if driven off the same amp where your receiver should output more wattage to a 4ohm load than a 8ohm load how much I do not know but it can be up to twice as much.

If you can't control the volume on zone 2 separately from you HT room your only option would be to pick a speaker with a sensitivity close to whatever the Zaph's are and the same ohm load.

If the MTM version is 6db louder than 85db, 91 db is still quite short or the 97db on the Cerwins but may get you closer to the Zaph's.

For reference 10db is twice as loud, doubling the number of speakers or watts gains you 3db.


This isn't a perfect explanation but I hope it helps.

Wow, awesome info, this is why I posted here! So the Vegas have a 97db sensitivity... That's really high. Yeah so I'm probably not going to be able to touch that... That's a good reality check.

If the Vegas are matched evenly with the 5.1 Zaphs at even wattage, then I either need to have independent volume control for each zone, or get a separate receiver, because finding a speaker with a 97db sensitivity that looks how I want probably isn't going to happen.

[Ntruder]

+1, and then add the room size and this does make sense (see OP's pics). The HT space is much smaller, but has more speakers (5 vs. 2) so it gets more wattage (2.5x). The bar area doesn't stand a chance unless it's got higher sensitivity speakers.

Assuming you got the in-wall version (HT room's kind of small for free-standing), the mains are 87dB and the center more like 93dB (?). The HT room looks ~10x12 while the bar area looks like it's about 4x that size.
~ -9dB from fewer speakers, less power delivered
~ -6dB due to larger space.

Nope, I've got the ported version, although the room is about 12 x 14.

You'll need ~100dB sensitivity speakers in the bar to get close to the same loudness in both bar and HT from the same amp.

Options
- pro-based speaker designs (Econowave would be low cost starting point)
- dual PE Point Source drivers (PS220 (Singularities) or PS180 (Drive-Ins) are single-driver designs)
- secondary amplifier, driven from pre-outs of primary amp.

Ironically, the last is the cheapest, especially considering the DTA-100 B-stock at $50. You'd use the DTA's volume control to set the bar area relative to the HT, and then continue as you planned. It sure makes the choice of speakers easier! Conversely, the PS drivers are ~95dB 8-ohm speakers, so a pair in parallel are ~101dB, but the drivers are not cheap, even if they're somewhat friendly to your esthetic requirements.

HAve fun,
Frank

The part in red seems like the best option. I hadn't even considered this. I could probably find something with a remote so it can have its own control, and just eliminate the back channel altogether.

There's an Audiosource 100w amplifier for $100 that I could build right into my cabinetry. I think this is the way to go. I can turn them off and on at will and have volume control right at the bar. This is perfect.

Plus, that frees up my rear surround channel, since the AVR is 5.1 + zone 2 or 7.1

Good deal, good info. Thanks for the reply. This helps a ton.

[fbov]

Watts are cheap these days, and that amp is a nice choice for your needs - takes 2 sets of speakers, too. If you're going ONS, MTM and on-wall (as you show) will maximize your sensitivity. This looks like a very nice, well-integrated plan. Post pics when you're done....

HAve fun,
Frank

[Ntruder]

Watts are cheap these days, and that amp is a nice choice for your needs - takes 2 sets of speakers, too. If you're going ONS, MTM and on-wall (as you show) will maximize your sensitivity. This looks like a very nice, well-integrated plan. Post pics when you're done....

HAve fun,
Frank

Yeah I'm going to build a regular ported box and just have it set in wall, so it won't be a free-air configuration; just a box set in a wall

I've thought it through, and having a secondary amplifier with its own power switch is the best option for me. That way, it will always be getting a signal, meaning I don't need to switch anything on my AVR for it to work. I can turn the bar speakers on or off as I please, and control the volume independently. And also, the volume differential issues won't matter.

I still think I'm going to build the MTM ONS's though, just because two drivers looks cooler than one, and I can totally make use of the TM ONS's in my HT room. I'm currently using HTiB rear speakers ops:

[Ntruder]

Alright, the decision has been made. MTM Overnight Sensations it is!

I picked up the crossover materials today from Madisound (along with the tweeters and some nice printed circuit boards) and ordered four more B4N's and that $99 Audiosource amp from Parts Express...

Building the crossovers with these printed circuit boards is a breeze! I will never use 1/4" MDF ever again. I built 4 crossovers in under 2 hours, and that includes disassembling my poorly made TM ONS crossovers. The ones on the left are the TM ONS's (kit from Meniscus Audio) and the ones on the right are the MTM ONS's (kit using the HiVi tweeters, X-over parts sourced from Madisound)