DIYourselfers $2500

[chris1225]

I had posted this at another forum and was suggested to ask for advice here too.

In my journey to upgrade my speakers, I think I have changed my mind again. I was looking at a ED 5.1, with an A7s-650 kit. Then I realized that I have a brother in-law that is pretty good at woodworking (and likes me eough to help) and now I wonder if I could do better than the ED's for the price.

I need suggestions I have never built a speakers in my life. He has built sub boxes for car audio before, but never anything for home audio.I am looking for a full 5.1, which will be used for 90% movies, and I am looking more for quality rather than quantity.I will probably add a second sub later but not at this time. It will not be hidden, so it does have to look good, this means no jumbo sub boxes, nothing bigger than a end table which is what the sub probably will replace.

I have an onkyo 807 (will add an emotiva amp at a later date) to push the speakers, but nothing else. So, the budget most include the speakers, sub, amp for sub, wood, and whatever suggestions you might have too make these look good and sound good. The budget does not have to include the second sub or the extra amp.

I am open to all suggestion, such as is this even a good idea? Basically, what would you do if you were in my shoes?

Thanks in advance

[chris1225]

Image not available

The couch is 14 feet away from the T.V. and the living room is 13' by 19' and opens up to two hallways, plus a 11' by 11' dining room and a 13' by 11' kitchen. The front speakers will be roughly 6 feet apart.

[Face]

http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/kits.html

[Bear]

I have the Minuet 5B from Clearwave for my Left-Center-Right speakers, and they work very, very well. Given that there is >$600 of drivers alone in each of them, I don't think they will fit into a $2500 budget for a full 5.1 system, but I can certainly attest to Jed's quality and ease of doing business.

Specific advice on the build/budget:
- $2500 for a full 5.1 can be tough if that is all-in (drivers, cabinets, crossovers, amps, etc.). You often get advice to have all five speakers match or even be the exact same speaker. This is advice to which I do not subscribe, especially for content that is heavily biased toward movies. I would focus the dollars on where the content is, and upgrade later as your tastes and listening preferences change (good speakers can change how and what you want to listen to). The rest of this assumes that this is an all-in budget.

- Start of by dedicating $500 to the sub. A BASH300 or BASH500 (or equivalent) amp, a good 10" or 12" driver (e.g., SEAS L26ROY, Peerless XLS), and your choice of a sealed or vented cabinet. In some cases, you can troll through the second-hand driver market and save a few bucks for something even higher-end, but subwoofers always leave a question in my mind about whether the driver has been damaged.

- For home theater, the center channel is absolutely the most important. Depending upon the movie, 70% - 90% of the audio goes through the center channel, and you want dialog to be clear. The left and right channels should "timbre match" the center channel, and often this means that they come from the same family or designer. Of the $2000 that's left, I would target $1500 for the L-C-R (~$500/speaker).

- This leave $500 for a pair of surrounds. There is a real step-function down from the $500/unit range to the $250/unit range, but that doesn't really mean that you are getting junk at the lower price point. Cheaper speakers, that are well-designed, will generally play less loudly and have higher distortion than more expensive speakers. The good news is that for movies, the surrounds are intended largely for effects and ambiance. Critical audio almost never gets routed to them. I am not sure what Jed has in this price range, but you can pretty easily build the ZaphAudio 5.2 kit for $250/pair with your own cabinets and get a very well-respected design (no personal experience, but lots of people like/love that design series).

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair/

- For a new woodworker (like me), there is an option to use pre-built cabinets, rather than making your own. If you put anything close to a realistic price on your time, pre-built cabinets are an amazing time and money saver. However, if you are truly crunched on budget, a full sheet of 0.75" MDF and some cans of paint are still the cheapest way to go. For pre-built cabinets, figure around $100/speaker, and you will most likely still have to route the driver holes for the baffles.

- Final thought: the caveat to the above. You can buy pre-routed baffles and/or "flat pack" kits (e.g., a recent discussion about Statements Monitors in a flat pack). Using such a kit or a pre-routed baffle basically cuts your tool count to a bare minimum (e.g., drill driver, soldering iron, some screw drivers, etc.). I've been working with Mark K to translate his ER18DXT design so that it can use the Madisound 0.5cf cabinets and the pre-routed baffles. No word yet on performance from my end, but Mark says that it is practically indistinguishable from the original design.

Hope this helps.

[penngray]

Knowing you might not have room for a CC right now how about the following...

4 of these boxes?

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-TWC-0.38BK-0.38-ft-2-Way-Curved-Cabinet-Gloss-302-711?quantity=1

2 of these

https://www.parts-express.com/AviaTrix-Sealed-MTM-Components-Only-Speaker-Kit-Pair-300-704?quantity=1

Its a great starting project and I think its well under your budget. You can

Then you need to find a quality subwoofer build.

[---k---]

Good looking, quality speakers take a lot of time and effort to build. I would start with a single subwoofer build and then see if your brother-in-law still likes you enough to help you more. Seriously, because of all the starting and stopping while waiting for glue to dry, etc. it is a lot of time.

[fbov]

Knowing you might not have room for a CC right now how about the following...


4 of these boxes?

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-TWC-0.38BK-0.38-ft-2-Way-Curved-Cabinet-Gloss-302-711?quantity=1

2 of these

https://www.parts-express.com/AviaTrix-Sealed-MTM-Components-Only-Speaker-Kit-Pair-300-704?quantity=1

Its a great starting project and I think its well under your budget. You can

Then you need to find a quality subwoofer build.

Good idea, but use the 0.75 cu ft. box; it's the smallest PE box with a baffle that supports a 10" c-c separation and 5" drivers. Build 5 and you're down to looking for a sub.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-731

However, Aviatrix' ND140's are 86dB drivers; you can do better in both sensitivity and power handling, and stay within budget. This is what I was getting at in the second half of my reply to your AVS thread (post 13).

Conversely, bigger isn't better if it's already loud enough. Just remember to child-proof the result, perhaps not as much as lunch did....

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=223831

Have fun,
Frank

[penngray]

Thanks, I forgot they are that low. There isnt going to be kick you in the chest from that choice but its a start and it keeps the size and budget down. Then he can find a quality DIY subwoofer (drivers are not cheap in DIY anymore ) I guess I will poke around all the design choices to find something maybe in the 90dB area to suggest.

The WAF apeal of higher sensitivity designs (ie. horn designs) just isnt there for most family rooms. There is always a compromise in any speaker choice.

[chris1225]

Knowning you might not have room for a CC right now how about the following...


4 of these boxes?

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-TWC-0.38BK-0.38-ft-2-Way-Curved-Cabinet-Gloss-302-711?quantity=1

2 of these

https://www.parts-express.com/AviaTrix-Sealed-MTM-Components-Only-Speaker-Kit-Pair-300-704?quantity=1

Its a great starting project and I think its well under your budget. You can

Then you need to find a quality subwoofer build.

Would these really be better than the ED speakers I was looking at?
fronts



center



surrounds



All five delivered for $1100

[looneybomber]

Dare I say look at used bookshelfs for the surround speakers?

I have the Dynamic 4T's and 4CC as linked above, but those combined are eating up too much of your budget. The 2T's and 2CC (RS version) would be ~$1350. Factor in another ~$700 for a sub(s) and ~$150 for some used bookshelfs, and you'll come in right at budget once you factor in wood.

[Undefinition]

Have you seen the Swope HT?

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33961

[Coconutout]

rough overestimation of component costs including enclosures-

rythmik servo sub- $600
full sized statements- $900
statement monitors- $500
statement center- $300

chances are, with the full sized statements you might find that the rythmik is an overkill. with this setup you have a system rivaling in performance 7 to 10 times it's cost.

[cantgetitright]

rough overestimation of component costs including enclosures-

rythmik servo sub- $600
full sized statements- $900
statement monitors- $500
statement center- $300

chances are, with the full sized statements you might find that the rythmik is an overkill. with this setup you have a system rivaling in performance 7 to 10 times it's cost.

Whens the last time you looked at prices of drivers and such. I agree with the rest of it but your rough overestimation of prices not so much.

[looneybomber]

I don't remember the details as well as some of you, but the Statements require something like 20-24" between the wall and the back of the speaker for the mids to breathe? That will put the speaker into the room quite a bit, possibly too much? It's definitely something that will have to be measured and talked about with the Mrs.

[cjd]

Well...

I think the price on the Garnacha now runs close to $1k for the pair all said and done. When I went through the process of appraisal to get "replacement value" for insurance I landed at about $3400. Each. That's $6800 for the pair. So that may give you a sense of where DIY sits. I've got a whole pile of design options that could easily be worked together to fit the bill here (and most are designed to sit near walls, tv's, etc. which is often not the case) and plenty of other excellent options have been suggested already.

C

[Coconutout]

Whens the last time you looked at prices of drivers and such. I agree with the rest of it but your rough overestimation of prices not so much.

couple years ago :B

[Ray_D]

I have the Minuet 5B from Clearwave for my Left-Center-Right speakers, and they work very, very well. Given that there is >$600 of drivers alone in each of them, I don't think they will fit into a $2500 budget for a full 5.1 system, but I can certainly attest to Jed's quality and ease of doing business.

Specific advice on the build/budget:
- $2500 for a full 5.1 can be tough if that is all-in (drivers, cabinets, crossovers, amps, etc.). You often get advice to have all five speakers match or even be the exact same speaker. This is advice to which I do not subscribe, especially for content that is heavily biased toward movies. I would focus the dollars on where the content is, and upgrade later as your tastes and listening preferences change (good speakers can change how and what you want to listen to). The rest of this assumes that this is an all-in budget.

- Start of by dedicating $500 to the sub. A BASH300 or BASH500 (or equivalent) amp, a good 10" or 12" driver (e.g., SEAS L26ROY, Peerless XLS), and your choice of a sealed or vented cabinet. In some cases, you can troll through the second-hand driver market and save a few bucks for something even higher-end, but subwoofers always leave a question in my mind about whether the driver has been damaged.

- For home theater, the center channel is absolutely the most important. Depending upon the movie, 70% - 90% of the audio goes through the center channel, and you want dialog to be clear. The left and right channels should "timbre match" the center channel, and often this means that they come from the same family or designer. Of the $2000 that's left, I would target $1500 for the L-C-R (~$500/speaker).

- This leave $500 for a pair of surrounds. There is a real step-function down from the $500/unit range to the $250/unit range, but that doesn't really mean that you are getting junk at the lower price point. Cheaper speakers, that are well-designed, will generally play less loudly and have higher distortion than more expensive speakers. The good news is that for movies, the surrounds are intended largely for effects and ambiance. Critical audio almost never gets routed to them. I am not sure what Jed has in this price range, but you can pretty easily build the ZaphAudio 5.2 kit for $250/pair with your own cabinets and get a very well-respected design (no personal experience, but lots of people like/love that design series).

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair/

- For a new woodworker (like me), there is an option to use pre-built cabinets, rather than making your own. If you put anything close to a realistic price on your time, pre-built cabinets are an amazing time and money saver. However, if you are truly crunched on budget, a full sheet of 0.75" MDF and some cans of paint are still the cheapest way to go. For pre-built cabinets, figure around $100/speaker, and you will most likely still have to route the driver holes for the baffles.

- Final thought: the caveat to the above. You can buy pre-routed baffles and/or "flat pack" kits (e.g., a recent discussion about Statements Monitors in a flat pack). Using such a kit or a pre-routed baffle basically cuts your tool count to a bare minimum (e.g., drill driver, soldering iron, some screw drivers, etc.). I've been working with Mark K to translate his ER18DXT design so that it can use the Madisound 0.5cf cabinets and the pre-routed baffles. No word yet on performance from my end, but Mark says that it is practically indistinguishable from the original design.

Hope this helps.

This is an excellent post. I would only change the emphasis a little bit. For HT the center would be my first concern. Depending on your movie preferences and the size of your mains the sub would have lesser priority. Mains and center should be reasonably large, for example Zaph's ZDT3.5/ZD3C. Surrounds can be smaller such as the ZA5.2. They are too small for mains in anything but a small room and crossed over fairly high to a sub

Regards

Ray.