The "value" debate

[oneplustwo]

Hey folks,

Now that I've got three builds under my belt, I'm considering spending bigger money for a design with higher end drivers. However, I'm wondering if I should be investing in more speakers given the solid ones I've already completed. I have really enjoyed all of them (in my sig) but have found myself wondering if I'm not missing something by not building a ZRT for example.

If anyone else has gone through this type of evolution, I'd love to hear your thoughts about your decision making process, what designs you considered, where you ended up, and whether you'd do anything differently.

Cheers!

[---k---]

It is a hobby. The whole point is to waste money. :P

There are definitely better speakers out there than what you got. I'm positive of that and positive that I would be able to hear a better one in blind listening. My spouse and probably 90% of the population may not be able to hear the quality differences, but they are there. That doesn't mean your in the diminishing returns territory, just in the subtle improvement territory.

You're going to spend money on a hobby, whether it be drinking beer, building speakers, or building smokers for BBQ. You just have to look at your hobby budget and decide which is top priority.


An alternate path may be to continue to build speakers similar size / budget to the ones you have, but from different designers to hear different voicing options. Mark K's w/ the DXT tweeter interest me. Paul C. designs are different from what you got and would be great for rocking out. His least expensive designs are fun to build and cheap enough to give away.

[jkrueger]

sucker your friends

I have also built a few sets of speakers. Remember the D3 anyone? Then on to the Natalie P's, Khanspires, and a custom kit from Selah. There were a few failures before I stopped building plans that did not come from htguide. It was all fun, but no one needs 4 sets. I got my dad involved early on. The Khans live at his house, the Selah kits are my daily drivers, and soon the Nat P's will be sent to live with my sister 'n law. You just have to find homes for the speakers you have, then you "need" new ones. Good luck

[5th element]

If all of the speakers that you'd built were similar then I'd say yes, go ahead and build something else that does things in a completely different way.

As it stands you've done a 2 way and two 3 ways, one of which is an open baffle. There is always a good benefit in stepping up to a 3 way, but you've already experienced this first hand and also know how an open baffle can sound.

Given the quality of the designs you've built, I think it's fair to say that the implementation with the drivers is also excellent in each design, so you haven't built any stinkers. The drive units used in each design are also excellent performers and very difficult to improve upon.

If you are wanting to build something with the sole intention of it being perhaps a 'better' loudspeaker then you're going to have to spend big.

We're looking at say Jed's Duet10R, Jon's Ardents or Modula Xtreme etc. I would be inclined to say build something with 10" bass units too, unless of course you're using a sub.

There's always the urge to build more and building more just for the sake of satisfying that can be somewhat stupid when you actually think about it. You probably don't need a another competently designed 2 way etc, although I have to say building Mark K's design using the SEAS reed cone and the DXT would be worthwhile, as the presentation of the sound can change quite dramatically when you use a wave-guide. Also you could probably do this in the exact same cabinet as the SR71, drop in a DXT and change the crossover. This is as simple as it gets though and probably not what you're after with regards to a new 'build'. If I was in your position and actually had the money to invest in a serious design that uses top class drivers, then that's the route I'd probably go.

You could also do something completely different and instead of building a kit invest the time and money in learning how to design your own loudspeakers.

[fbov]

While Ryan's spot on (It's a hobby, so we also waste time), there is another reasonable goal; YOURS.

Put another way, what are you trying to do? What sort of listening area are you trying to create, what sort of listening experience do you want to achieve? Or are you just building to see how it sounds? What's your goal?

You've got a high-end 2-way, a bargain driver 3.5-way, and a dipole MTM (IIRC). These should sound very different in any given room, and vary with placement. Are they giving you the listening experience you want? Are you hearing meaningful differences among the designs. What aspect is underserved? That's where you should go.

My goal was a simple CC upgrade for the HT, but my thinking was outdated. 2.5 years later, I finally have a really, really good CC... plus 5 pairs of working speakers and more in the workshop.

Upgrading the CC meant upgrading to matched L/R speakers, which got me going to DIY events where I won some drivers, that got me interested in doing my own designs, even as I made a pair of kits (Madisound's RBs). Got a mic and did a clean sheet XO design, but with an omni-directional geometry, intended as surrounds. Upgraded AVR, enabling "front wide" surround locations, and love it, so now building a second L/R pair, eventually. Noticed my omni surrounds had very low sensitivity, so build a more conventional pair. Right now, most of these are in the living room set up for stereo and comparison, not use in the HT. It's using my old ones....

My current goal is an HT with 5 MTMs across the front with small, high-dispersion surrounds of similar sensitivity (but limited bass). 5 of 7 are done, but other opportunities keep delaying completion. I'm easily sidetracked when part of the goal is to spend time....

Have fun,
Frank

[oneplustwo]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I guess my problem is that I haven't heard what could be deemed the "gold standard" so I'm not sure what I might be missing (if anything.) I will say that I have noticed some listening fatigue on occasion when the family is watching lots of TV. Not sure if that may be a function of my listening room as much as the speakers themselves though.

I'll have to put some more thought into it... and probably focus my questions after doing a little more introspection. If anyone else has any insight, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks!

[5th element]

Well listening fatigue can kick in more as a result of being overstimulated. It's one thing if you're listening to music, it's another if the TVs on and you're semi tuned out whilst doing something else - here the TVs sound can really irritate and lean towards a headache, especially if it's turned up reasonably loud, we don't really like listening to speech that is louder then a person next to us normally talks.

A gold standard doesn't really exist, what does exist is some image in your mind of how you'd want things to sound. What priorities do you have when it comes to listening in stereo? What things really annoy you about bad loudspeakers? Do the designs that you've built irritate you in any way? Is there some aspect of their sound that you wish there was more of, or wish they did a little better?

[fbov]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I guess my problem is that I haven't heard what could be deemed the "gold standard" so I'm not sure what I might be missing (if anything.) ...

This statement belies an expectation that you will someday hear a perfect speaker, one enough better than all others to be deemed the "gold standard."

It doesn't exist. (The speaker, I mean.)

There are two major issues:
- rooms and speakers interact, and removing room reflections sounds bad, so speakers' sound will vary depending where you put them
- aural perception is notoriously senstive to extraneous factors like prior knowledge, visual cues and short memory span, although training is possible.

You should still pursue the gold standard, but realize it's an experience, not a speaker, and it's a combination of factors, not all of which may be within your conscious awareness at the time. If you're lucky.

That's what makes DIY events fun; you get to hear a bunch of folks trying to make their version of a gold standard. OK, maybe some people are trying to make the best purse they can from a sow's ear, but it's amazing how good a sow's ear can sound when done well. In my case, my favorite design at one of these events is the latest speaker I've built, and the geometry teaches me a lot. It has no right to that much bass (by design), wonderful imaging and a nice airy top end, nothing like the same tweeters in my MTMs.

Is it a gold standard? Well they have a garnet shellac on white oak finish, so they're the right color... and mine have that same transparent quality as the originals. But they have 5.5" sealed bass, so no, not a standard speaker, just one that demonstrates highly desirable attributes.

HAve fun,
Frank

[Undefinition]

I'll have to put some more thought into it... and probably focus my questions after doing a little more introspection. If anyone else has any insight, I'd love to hear it.

Can't we just say that we all suffer an addiction and be done with it? :B

[john trials]

Another thing to consider is trying DIY room treatments (absorbers and diffusers). These are fun projects that can improve what you've already got. And it's a good challenge to get your significant other to approve (usually for aesthetic reasons, not $ reasons...sound treatments would be cheaper than high-end drivers and new speakers).

[---k---]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I guess my problem is that I haven't heard what could be deemed the "gold standard" so I'm not sure what I might be missing (if anything.) ...

Thanks!

I hear you. I know where you're at. I got my big towers that make me very happy. I've heard some better speakers, such as JonW's Spassvogels (though not better in all ways). I've also heard some better speakers at DIY Iowa a while back. The differences are usually more subtle and spacial (but those didn't have the dynamic potential and headroom of mine - so trade offs). I'm a builder (more so than an audiophile), so I like to be always building something new. I'm constantly tempted to build better speakers or just different speakers so I can explore what waveguide speakers sound like, etc.

But, the problem I have is that in order to build better than what I have now in all ways would require some serious $$, and what on earth would I do with my current ones? and ... but, the bottom line for me is that I can dim the lights, put a movie / cd on, lean back and relax and be very happy in the moment. I'm happy enough....

So, I've basically said I'm done with speaker building for now. I've moved on to exploring the passions of smoked meats and BBQ. It is a good hobby with very satisfying results (also much easier to share family and friends). If a close friend or family asked me to build them speakers I would probably jump at the chance to satisfy my curiosity. Or if an opportunity came along where someone wanted to buy my Khans for what they are worth as retail speakers ($2000+), then I would probably jump at it. But, other than that, it will probably be a few years until there is something really new and different that excites me about speakers.

[5th element]

I think what K says bares repeating, if you've got the desire to build things like he has (I have it too!) then perhaps try building other things?

I branched out first into audio electronics and can now build pre amps, power amps, DACs, ADCs, DSPs etc. To help satisfy my want to design and build things though I've also become interested in LED lighting and have built a number of lamps around various different ICs, modes of operation and type of LED.

I think at the end of the day I like to build useful things, DIY doesn't have to stop at just loudspeakers and anyone will accept the gift of a lamp

[oneplustwo]

5th and K:

You guys got it right more than you know. I'm definitely a builder. I started the audio thing through a series of headphone amps, then DACs, then a chipamp. I still have a few electronics projects in progress including a pretty high power power amp that I'm excited about finishing (Beta 24 from Amb Labs if you're curious.)

This is in addition to my other projects... lugged bicycle frame building, car maintenance/upgrading, etc. Building my third shed for a friend this weekend. I have a building disease for sure!

I think I'll probably cool my jets for now. I do still have that big 12" Dayton HF driver that I need to turn into a subwoofer at some point. And maybe I'll have another perspective on how the speakers sound to me after the big power amp is done. Plus, I could probably build an entertainment center to accommodate all my amps and DACs and stuff!

Those should keep me occupied for a while. Unless you guys have any other projects I should be thinking about!

[Hdale85]

You call the Dayton 12" Big? :B

[---k---]

You call the Dayton 12" Big? :B

Yeah! Dual 15's or go home. :B

[oneplustwo]

I tried to convince the wife we needed an IB sub... didn't go so well despite my assertion that she wouldn't even be able to see it. Maybe I should have found homes for the two "extra" pairs of speakers first.

[Bent]

"dual 15's, or go home...."

[---k---]

Now that's what I'm talking about! :T

[fudgemik]

bent and ---k---, i didn't think anyone else would consider a big sub like that, i have something similar and love it. Ive wanted something bigger, heres a pic. FYI 2- 12" earthquakes.......i need to get better camera.....

[impala454]

How about quad 18s?

Hehe. Not mine but I followed the thread with interest

;x( :a> ;-x

Image not available

[---k---]

How about quad 18s?

Well, let's not go overboard. :rofl:

[Theresa]

high end value

I just put together a pair of active speakers using miniDSPs with the ScanSpeak 18W4531s and Eton ceramic/magnesium tweeters. Best speakers I've ever heard but expensive.

[oneplustwo]

Jeesh... do you guys even come close to the potential of those arrays of large drivers? Or is it more of matter of "because I can."

[Bent]

on mine,
yes.
Unibox said I sized it pretty well for both Dual RL-p's at approx 8.5 ft^3 and 1200 watts from my ADA 1200.
Mine is sealed - so for really low response, I just crank up the deep boost on the para-EQ and let it wail.

a 1200 watt amp isn't likely do damage two of these - they are wired to only see 300 watts/voicecoil.

[0db]

bent and ---k---, i didn't think anyone else would consider a big sub like that, i have something similar and love it. Ive wanted something bigger, heres a pic. FYI 2- 12" earthquakes.......i need to get better camera.....

For some reason that subwoofer looks like it was photoshopped into this pic... the perpective seems really weird. Not that you'd have any reason to do so, it's just a really eye-scrambling pic to me.

[fudgemik]

i assure you its real, here's another angle..

[---k---]

Jeesh... do you guys even come close to the potential of those arrays of large drivers?

Yes.

You don't really understand how much you're missing in movies until you experience it. I don't run mine hot either.

[Bent]

exactly, mine isn't run hot either - most of the work my subwoofer amplifier does is done from 45hz - 40 hz and down.
if I tune my EQ for "Ke$ha" type bass (60 hz and up), I'd go deaf.

[fudgemik]

i cant say i dont run mine hot, i beat the death out of those things when i listen to music, lol......

[Hdale85]

Large subs just play down lower, an 18 is going to hit frequencies much lower then a 12 with more SPL. So it's just not something you'll experience with smaller drivers.

[oneplustwo]

Maybe someday... we're in a single family home, but the kind that is built right next to it's neighbors. As such, I think the neighbors would kill me if I had that much bass going on regularly. I'm surprised they don't complain as it is with the pitter patter of three pairs of kiddie feet stomping around all the time!

[JTR]

Throwing in a couple of euro cents

Chiming in a bit because it's an interesting question to ask one's self.

Originally I build my speakers partly out of curiosity but mainly to build one ultimate stereo and be done with it, but now I've got the panels and speakers lying here to build a completely different design.
Before I decided to buy the latest batch I asked myself whether or not I should, but it was the curiosity of finding out if this will work and what it'll sound like that eventually made me do it.
I'm pretty sure after building this design I'd still build another if an interesting enough idea pops up, curiosity is just too much of a tease. :-)

And talking about subwoofers, will 2x 6 12" in open baffle do? :unsure:

Image not available

[fudgemik]

awesome pic

[vettett15]

dear god JTR, I have one 15 and that shakes walls/floors in my house, you got earthquake insurance with that?

[JTR]

dear god JTR,

No need to call me god, just sir will do. :thanku:

I have one 15 and that shakes walls/floors in my house, you got earthquake insurance with that?

Who needs insurance when it's divine intervention/natural disaster? :twisted:
:huh: No officer, I have no idea what happened for the building to collapse. :blink:

[oneplustwo]

Well, to bring this sort of back on topic, I think my next play will be in fact to build the sub after all. That seems to be the next logical "value" step. Especially given I already have the driver. I'll have to dream about a large bass array for now.

[brent_s]

Maybe someday... we're in a single family home, but the kind that is built right next to it's neighbors. As such, I think the neighbors would kill me if I had that much bass going on regularly. I'm surprised they don't complain as it is with the pitter patter of three pairs of kiddie feet stomping around all the time!

Your 315HF is certainly capable of getting you into trouble if you build it right... :T It won't have the sheer output of the bigger drivers, but it'll reach low enough with authority to get your, and possibly the neighbors', attention.

Pair of 315HFs measured at the LP in room, each in 3.5 ft^3 net tuned to 17Hz. Audyssey engaged, but it's major contribution is knocking down a room induced peak around 45Hz and smoothing out a dip right above the 80Hz xover. Obviously, this is not a max output sweep. FWIW, I watch movies at -10 to -15dB below Reference and have never heard the drivers complain even though I run without a subsonic filter.

-Brent

[penngray]

This is an interesting discussion.

My last two purhases have been the TAD TD-1002 and the BMS 4590, both from secondary sources so I atleast didnt pay MRSP but they pretty much cost maybe 5x more then most drivers discussed.

The question I will find out is how much better they are over the lower cost CDs and how much better the larger horn (IWATA-300) + 2" CD is better over a 1" CD.

I moved beyond dome tweeters about 3 years ago, Im purely an HT performance guy. Dome tweeters and low sensitivity popular Dayton drivers do not meet those requirements of THX reference + clean peaks + clean amp power.

I get a kick out of the 2 15" comment too...I thought we are atleast 4x18" type designs (ala IBs or high powered sealed choices for the lowest disortion peaks) Its interesting to read threads from forum to forum. The DTS-10 (or multiples is a big hit some placed too). 2 15" drivers can not even get you in the door of that party

[---k---]

Its interesting to read threads from forum to forum. The DTS-10 (or multiples is a big hit some placed too). 2 15" drivers can not even get you in the door of that party

Yes it is. and I no longer frequent that forum for that very reason.

[penngray]

Yes it is. and I no longer frequent that forum for that very reason.

What reason?? Not wanting < 10% Distortion at 10Hz, 15Hz or 20Hz.

Its merely a numbers thing, displacement thing. If someone wants 10Hz performance they not be getting it with even 2 15" woofers. Not saying everyone requires 10Hz. Im just saying IF someone wants it they need to know that displacement is king. Everyone has to run the actually math behind it and not assume anything. I had 2x15" woofers (TC-2000s)...its amazing how that isnt good enough any more :M
Im not even talking about ear bleeding levels of SPL. My IB array (4x18") is incredible for dynamics when listening at 75dBs. My twin LMS5400s go pretty low with 4000Watts each and do an okay job with LFE that has +30dB peaks in movies. If you are 12 feet back and listening @ 80dB levels, what does your sub have to do to have clean peaks. What if you want to show off to someone, testing the system limits. Headroom becomes very important.

Now once you figure out the subwoofer requirements do you think 6.5" woofers in main speakers are going to remotely match that sort of clean output at 80Hz??

If someone says they have an incredidle HT setup then I think the meaurements behind those setups should be important to the discussion, everything else is anecdotal. I know that 99% of all HT setup owners clip amps and distort woofers during dynamic peaks in action movies (You know all those HTiB and BOSE owners ).

Its a choice to have that or search for a design that has the cleanest peaks.

WRT to the idea of value, people can definitely spend a fraction on speakers and subs and get better performance then almost all non-DIYers but if someone is search for that last couple of percentage improvements then costs seem to increment exponentially. Just look at the cost of the cheapest 2" Compression driver, new ones are starting at $200+, Well Used JBLs can be $100. Look at a Neo woofers these days, the prices have skyrocketed. Why do I care about 2" CDs? Im currently trying to find out if having one driver running 500Hz to 8KHz is a gret thing. Why BMS 4590?? Point source from 500Hz to 20KHz should be very impressive (Danley, full range drivers, etc seem to have their advantages in some form). Too bad they cost $1500 for a pair.

Im also a firm believer that different content requires different speakers. Movies seem to be the best on waveguide/horn designs while critical music listening is still very, very good on my ribbon designs (thank you Curt C.!!)

[chasw98]

Been a long, long time since I posted.

Started out building these.



And have ended up with these.

Image not available

Not only have the speakers grown in complexity and price, but the electronics have had to
keep up also. So check that budget carefully and remember it
doesn't have to be built in a day. Those arrays took over a year
to get done and I am still not totally finished!

Chuck

[oneplustwo]

Jeesh... how many pairs did you have in between the two? And over what time period?

[chasw98]

Jeesh... how many pairs did you have in between the two? And over what time period?

Let's see, I started with a single 15" sonotube sub.
Modula MT's
Dayton TMWW mains
Dayton WMTW center
(4) sealed 15 inch Avalanche subs (24" x 24" x 24")
Eventually an IB sub with 4 Sound Splinter 15" units
A pair of Arvo's
Some TD-15's with horns for grins.
A small stereo rack mount 2 way unit for monitoring.
A Fountek CD 2.0 ribbon with an 8" B&C driver.
3 each L, C, R 2 way Scan Speak units based on Zaph's ZRT.
Then a pair of 2 way 12 inch Dayton driver mid bass units to go with the ZRT's.
Then the large planar arrays with the dual sealed 15 inch subs.

I guess all of this over the last 5 years.

Chuck

[Hank]

Chuck, you're back! Any new measurements/comments on those big guys? What do you have to do to get 'em "totally" finished?

[penngray]

Been a long, long time since I posted.

Chuck

its great to read a post from you!!!