Nat P's Done, now what?

[jmik26]

I just got done building some Nat P's and Tri-Trix but I find myself wanting to build another set 8) . This will be for audio only. I listen to everything. Should I:

1. Build bigger towers, like the Clearwaves, Statements, etc...

2. Build some monitors with bass bins?

Budget is around $1k. What are your suggestions? Really kicking myself for not going to InDIYana :M .

Thanks, Jeff

[---k---]

All depends on what the intended purpose is for the build. I have the big Khans, but I would love to build these http://www.audioheuristics.org/proje...XT/ER18DXT.htm . because I would like to hear the DXT tweeter. I'm interested in waveguide projects, like Jon's Modula XT. I also would love to build an econowave - not because I think it would rock my world, it just interests me.

The Statement's are nice. But, if you have Nat P now and are looking for something lights-out better, I would look at some of Jed's kits.

[Hdale85]

For music there is something special about a 2 way speaker I think.....maybe it's the simpler crossover and what not? On top of this you can go a bit more crazy for the same money, like something using an accuton mid on a TM style tower/bookshelf.

[jmik26]

All depends on what the intended purpose is for the build. I have the big Khans, but I would love to build these http://www.audioheuristics.org/proje...XT/ER18DXT.htm . because I would like to hear the DXT tweeter. I'm interested in waveguide projects, like Jon's Modula XT. I also would love to build an econowave - not because I think it would rock my world, it just interests me.

The Statement's are nice. But, if you have Nat P now and are looking for something lights-out better, I would look at some of Jed's kits.

Thanks for the recommendations, I will take a look at those. I just find myself with a ear to ear grin when I listen to the DIY speakers. Definitely looking for lights out better, ha ha ha.

[jmik26]

For music there is something special about a 2 way speaker I think.....maybe it's the simpler crossover and what not? On top of this you can go a bit more crazy for the same money, like something using an accuton mid on a TM style tower/bookshelf.

I would agree, my Topaz's still amaze me after listening to them for 10 years. I always wondered what the Accuton sounded like. I just can't get over how they look ops: ...

[Hdale85]

To each their own I guess, I think the accuton drivers are gorgeous. Either way I take sq before beauty any day.

[fbov]

...But, if you have Nat P now and are looking for something lights-out better, I would look at some of Jed's kits.

Actually, I don't think you need to look that far. Having lived with a NatP LCR set for nearly 3 years, they are a wonderful HT speaker, and by that I mean they excel in multichannel environments.

However, I get a completely different experience comparing in 2-channel. The difference, I believe, is due to the driver geometry. MTM's control vertical woofer output by driver interference, and improve tweeter integration by placing it between closely spaced drivers. That limits tweeter vertical dispersion and to my ears, completely changes the spaciousness and localization of any program material I play.

I first noticed this comparing with my own design Pluto clone. I chalked it up to omni vs. directed array. I've since built a couple, more conventional MT's (Continuum, Madisound RB1) and they both have more in common with the omni's sound than the MTM. This may be part of what you like about the Topaz'.

Therefore, I'd avoid symetric designs like the Statements or other MTMs and try a simple MT, preferably one with high-end drivers. Ryan's referal to Mark K's is a good choice, as are Jon's Modula XT or Jed's designs. You may be surprised to find you don't need bass bins, either....

Have fun,
Frank

[jmik26]

To each their own I guess, I think the accuton drivers are gorgeous. Either way I take sq before beauty any day.

I was just looking around and noticed those drivers in Consensus Audio speakers. Man are they pricey! Is there any DIY designs with those drivers?

[jmik26]

Actually, I don't think you need to look that far. Having lived with a NatP LCR set for nearly 3 years, they are a wonderful HT speaker, and by that I mean they excel in multichannel environments.

However, I get a completely different experience comparing in 2-channel. The difference, I believe, is due to the driver geometry. MTM's control vertical woofer output by driver interference, and improve tweeter integration by placing it between closely spaced drivers. That limits tweeter vertical dispersion and to my ears, completely changes the spaciousness and localization of any program material I play.

I first noticed this comparing with my own design Pluto clone. I chalked it up to omni vs. directed array. I've since built a couple, more conventional MT's (Continuum, Madisound RB1) and they both have more in common with the omni's sound than the MTM. This may be part of what you like about the Topaz'.

Therefore, I'd avoid symetric designs like the Statements or other MTMs and try a simple MT, preferably one with high-end drivers. Ryan's referal to Mark K's is a good choice, as are Jon's Modula XT or Jed's designs. You may be surprised to find you don't need bass bins, either....

Have fun,
Frank

I could do a high end MT. I looked at the Modula XT thread but there wasn't much. I will have to search further. Mark K's are definitely affordable, have you heard them? Thanks for your help... Jeff

[Hdale85]

I was just looking around and noticed those drivers in Consensus Audio speakers. Man are they pricey! Is there any DIY designs with those drivers?

Yes there are a few DIY designs out there using Accuton drivers, Jed has a couple kits but not in your price range. I'm not sure if you'll find a 2 way using an Accuton mid that can be built for 1k? It would be pretty constrained as far as crossover I imagine. I'd look for a 2 way using maybe ScanSpeak revelators or something? I'm not sure what kind of output you're looking for, if you're not looking for 100dB the 5.5" Revelator midrange is supposed to be QUITE nice. Not to say you have to go this route but it's an option.

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=148&products_id=924

Looks like they are a bit pricier then they used to be? Might still be possible though in your budget. There are other great options though, SB Acoustics gets some pretty good reviews and they are very cheap. Look in the mission accomplished section there are lots of designs, there are also designs out there online as well.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Optimo.html

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=25031

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SP95.htm

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W1500_97.htm

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam.htm

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/EllamXT.htm

I'm not sure if any of those are actually in your price range, but all look like excellent 2 way speakers. That EllamXT uses the same tweeter in my towers and I quite like it.

The ZRT from Zaph gets lots of amazing reviews as well, Zaph does some great stuff.

[Undefinition]

Yeah, those 5.5" Revelators are very nice, indeed. My favorite 2-way I ever did paired them with a pair of Hiquphon tweeters. Too bad it was a custom design for someone else, and I had to let them go. :cry:

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/updates/1001projectsgoingonatoncebutheresareallygoodone

[Hdale85]

Actually Jed may not have the Accuton kits anymore, I don't remember now haha. He changed a lot of stuff around I think he's only offering the Dynamic kits now?

[jmik26]

Great links guys, this will definitely give me some good reading material. I have to admit when I was researching the Nat P's I ran across the Spassvogel MT and thought they looked awesome! Talking with my buddy I am pretty set on making a high end 2 way. I think I am going to kill the curiosity and get the better caps on the tweets also. Live and learn I guess. Thanks again... Jeff

Researching I ran across this and thought I would share...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kptqT_zgCAg

[Jonasz]

Yeah, those 5.5" Revelators are very nice, indeed. My favorite 2-way I ever did paired them with a pair of Hiquphon tweeters. Too bad it was a custom design for someone else, and I had to let them go. :cry:

https://sites.google.com/site/undefi...areallygoodone

Paul, do you think this design will work with the OW1 or does it need to some adjustments?

[Hdale85]

Great links guys, this will definitely give me some good reading material. I have to admit when I was researching the Nat P's I ran across the Spassvogel MT and thought they looked awesome! Talking with my buddy I am pretty set on making a high end 2 way. I think I am going to kill the curiosity and get the better caps on the tweets also. Live and learn I guess. Thanks again... Jeff

Researching I ran across this and thought I would share...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kptqT_zgCAg

Just be careful with upgrading components in the crossover, it doesn't take much to blow your budget HUGELY.

[Undefinition]

Paul, do you think this design will work with the OW1 or does it need to some adjustments?

Yes, absolutely. However the tweeter level will most likely have to be adjusted a bit, because I don't think the OWIII and OWI have the same sensitivity. I'm currently saving up my nickels and dimes to get a pair of the OWI. I've had a few people offer to lend me the drivers to tweak the crossover, but no one's actually sent me anything yet.

[fbov]

... I have to admit when I was researching the Nat P's I ran across the Spassvogel MT and thought they looked awesome! ...

Just be aware that the Spassvogels were very much a baffle optimization project. If you don't have the capability to cut the thick chamfers, I'd shy away from it.

And here's a new entry into the "small but sounds better than they should" category that undefinition hasn't mentioned...

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/speedster

Have fun,
Frank

[Hdale85]

A small speaker like that would likely require some sort of sub, not that that's a bad thing

[jmik26]

Just be careful with upgrading components in the crossover, it doesn't take much to blow your budget HUGELY.

Yeah, I priced them with the Nat P's and Modula's, blew it right out of my budget . I am hoping with the 2 ways it will have a smaller count of parts in the x-over... Jeff

[jmik26]

Just be aware that the Spassvogels were very much a baffle optimization project. If you don't have the capability to cut the thick chamfers, I'd shy away from it.

And here's a new entry into the "small but sounds better than they should" category that undefinition hasn't mentioned...

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/speedster

Have fun,
Frank

Thanks for the heads up. I am going to put the speedsters on the list to research as well. Lot of good reading material this weekend, now just to find time... Jeff

[jmik26]

Some interesting reading for those who are following along or are in the same boat...

http://www.audioheuristics.org/measurements/Testing/woofer9/Seven_inch_woofers_test_9.htm

[Jonasz]

Yes, absolutely. However the tweeter level will most likely have to be adjusted a bit, because I don't think the OWIII and OWI have the same sensitivity. I'm currently saving up my nickels and dimes to get a pair of the OWI. I've had a few people offer to lend me the drivers to tweak the crossover, but no one's actually sent me anything yet.

Sounds like I will be building a pair of these in the future. I would lend you my pair if I lived a little closer... :T

[JonW]

Hi jmik26-

I built the Spassvogels. So if you have any questions, I’ll be around for at least a little while.

I’ve been scarce here at htguide because we’ve now got a kid at home. How’d that happen? And the little guy hasn’t left much time for speaker building. But I’ll try to stick around more. A PM related to another thread has brought me back.

“Just when I thought I was out… they pull me back in.”

[---k---]

Good to see you Jon. Sounds like life has got in the way for a lot of us.

[JonW]

Hey Ryan!

Yes, excellent to “see” you, too. I miss you and the crowd here.

Having a little kid is fun, although incredibly time consuming. Building speakers isn’t something that you can do with 10 free minutes here or 30 there.

On the plus side, the speakers I have built do get lots of good use. We listen to music and watch movies now and then. In fact, even just last night, my gal said “I am soooo glad that you built those speakers and made me a movie theater.”
“What do you mean ‘your' movie theater?”

I did finish the cabinets for my small speaker design project. But I’m not yet close to picking it up again. I look forward to the day.

I’ll try to poke my head in here more often.

-Jon

[jmik26]

Thanks.. I did all the reading my eyes could stand. Somehow through all the reading I kept drifting towards subs 8O . The more I read the more I want to do, I think its a sickness, :rofl:

There has been a lot of great reviews about the revelators and I am pretty sure the next pair will be built with these. In particular I have honed in on the Spassvogels and zaph designs.
Kinda of curious why the Spassvogels need chamfers and the zaph designs don't?

Hi jmik26-

I built the Spassvogels. So if you have any questions, I’ll be around for at least a little while.

I’ve been scarce here at htguide because we’ve now got a kid at home. How’d that happen? And the little guy hasn’t left much time for speaker building. But I’ll try to stick around more. A PM related to another thread has brought me back.

“Just when I thought I was out… they pull me back in.”

[---k---]

It wasn't that one needed it and the other didn't. It is just another level of optimization. Think of performance versus effort as being an curve. Putting the chamfers is at that far edge of a lot of effort to get another little incremental improvement.

[jmik26]

ahhh, gotcha... Thanks, Jeff

[JonW]

There has been a lot of great reviews about the revelators and I am pretty sure the next pair will be built with these. In particular I have honed in on the Spassvogels and zaph designs.
Kinda of curious why the Spassvogels need chamfers and the zaph designs don't?

Hi Jeff,

Good question. Like Ryan (-k-) said, it wasn’t so much a matter of “need.” But there was a lot of effort and thought that brought me to the facets. I was just trying to make the best speaker that I could. I started from a point of wanting to address every aspect of a speaker design.

The 3 big things are the drivers, the crossover, and the cabinet. The Scanspeaks looked like the best thing going (and I do really, really like them) so those were the drivers. Most people just use a rectangular box. I wanted to see if there could be substantial benefits from varying the cabinet style. So I built test cabinets of various configurations- square edges, rounded edges, facets around the tweeter, etc. I also tried straight versus slanted baffles. And centered versus offset tweeters.

All of this was a big learning experience for me. It helped me learn how to build a speaker (at least a little bit), which aspects seem to be most important, and how to improve my woodworking skills to make those facets.

You can see all the measurements and the results here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=25031&page=10&pp=35

Start at post #321 and look at the measurements through about #364. You can see how much benefit you gain from addressing these issues in the cabinet.

In the end, I decided to go with the facets, a slanted baffle, and a tweeter offset from the center. Each of those traits seemed to help the measurements a bit. And the crossover design is easier if you begin that with smoother, more well behaved raw drivers in the cabinets. From the measurements, my future projects (including a half complete one) will probably also go with facets, offset tweeters, and slanted baffles.

The more I read the more I want to do, I think its a sickness, :rofl:

Yes, and welcome to our little support group.

[Jed]

Actually Jed may not have the Accuton kits anymore, I don't remember now haha. He changed a lot of stuff around I think he's only offering the Dynamic kits now?

I can do another Accuton kit as long as it doesn't use the OEM RAAL as per a contract agreement I have with RAAL, but for $1.2k it'll be tough with high quality crossovers involved. For example, the Symphonia 7 design I did for a client used the C173-6-095 (now replaced by the C173-6-191) and Air Circ 6600, and the drivers alone retail near that budget.

http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/Symphonia/Symphonia7.html

[jmik26]

In the end, I decided to go with the facets, a slanted baffle, and a tweeter offset from the center. Each of those traits seemed to help the measurements a bit. And the crossover design is easier if you begin that with smoother, more well behaved raw drivers in the cabinets.

So do you guys build an ideal crossover for the speakers parameters, build the cabinets and crossovers then measure? From there you do cabinet modifications and crossover tweaks to fine tune. What instruments do you guys use to measure the speakers, design crossovers?
I noticed that there are no resistors in your crossovers. Is that because there was so much attention to detail on the cabinets or because they are better drivers?

A buddy and me are going in circles trying to figure out the next builds. We like a lot of the existing designs but we always find one or two things we want to tweak. I am starting to think we need to just start designing smaller budget designs and work our way up to the more expensive stuff to gain some knowledge?.... Thanks again to all the help you guys are giving me... Jeff

[jmik26]

I can do another Accuton kit as long as it doesn't use the OEM RAAL as per a contract agreement I have with RAAL, but for $1.2k it'll be tough with high quality crossovers involved. For example, the Symphonia 7 design I did for a client used the C173-6-095 (now replaced by the C173-6-191) and Air Circ 6600, and the drivers alone retail near that budget.

http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/...ymphonia7.html

The more reading I do about the Accutons my mind is going nuts. I want to hear a pair of those bad boys. We thought about driving up to Michigan from Chicago to hear those but with gas at $4.50 a gallon it might have to wait a while.
Do you offer the ability to build the crossovers for ourselves with any of your kits? We were thinking about building separate crossover boxes on our next designs with plexy to display them. My buddy and myself are probably the rare few that enjoy building the crossovers...
Nat P and the double tri-trix crossovers.

[Hdale85]

Generally Jed's crossovers are finished.

[---k---]

The typical preferred design process is:
1. computer models and simulations. You can model the enclosure size, edge diffraction, and frequency response of different driver combos based upon manf. specs.
2. Build the box
3. Put the drivers in the box and measure the response individually.
4. Model and build the crossover.
5. Listen and measure the combined response.
6. Go back to step 4, and repeat until satisfied.


JonW's spassvogel thread is really the best thread to read to get a feel for how the preferred method works. He goes through every painful step in that thread. It talks about the gear, the software, measurements, etc... To do it the way JonMarsh, CJD, Jed do it, it is not an easy process, but it gets the very last drop of performance out of a pair of drivers. If you go over to PE's forum, there are guys there that either use text book crossover or manf. data traced and model and are very happy with the results... I've heard a few systems designed this way and can verify it can work well enough, but I think Accuton drivers deserve more. Maybe it isn't a bad way to start...

If you're in Chicago, you should check in with CJD and Paul C. to see what there up to and what designs they have that you can hear. Might give you more perspective on things. DIY Iowa in the fall would be another great experience.



PS. Your avatar of speakers with two tweeters makes it hard to respond.

[jmik26]

If you're in Chicago, you should check in with CJD and Paul C. to see what there up to and what designs they have that you can hear. Might give you more perspective on things. DIY Iowa in the fall would be another great experience.

PS. Your avatar of speakers with two tweeters makes it hard to respond.

Thanks for the info, I will have to look them guys up.

I will change my avatar when I get home, lol. Its actually 6 two ways (Lou C topaz's). Thanks again for the info... Jeff

[Silver1omo]

Paul Carmody made a guide to use "Simulated Measurements":

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/simulated-measurements

You can get an idea or 2 before actually buying anything. As Ryan said, if you are going to use nice drivers, you want a good design process. If you want to start designing, why not start modeling with the drivers you already own?

From Paul's conclusion:

Measurements are a necessary part of speaker design; let's face it, we couldn't simulate these "artificial measurements" without something to start with (manufacturer's specs or 3rd party tests). But measurement can also be a pain in the ass. There, I said it. If you're one of those people who's posted all over the forums, asking, "What am I doing wrong with my measurements?" or "How do I get my measurement gear working?" and no one's responding it's because people either don't know why, and maybe do know why but don't want to deal with it. Most designers who measure regularly have a system that works for them; and once it works--reliably--they stick to it. The rest of the populace is still futzing around with their RTA mic, cables, mixer, sound card, inputs and outputs and getting weird results just like you. So I say, for the time being, go ahead and sim up some "artificial measurements" and go make something! That's the fun part! Then, sometime when you have free time (or you have the masochistic desire to use a driver for which there are no measurements), you can go back and read those user manuals and try and troubleshoot why your setup isn't working. Until then, don't let technical difficulties stifle your creativity.

[jmik26]

If you want to start designing, why not start modeling with the drivers you already own?

I was just telling my buddy that last night. I also have a couple left over speakers from the buy outs used in the topaz's. Now I just need to figure out the software needed. I am guessing LSPcad or Soundeasy?

[Silver1omo]

I was just telling my buddy that last night. I also have a couple left over speakers from the buy outs used in the topaz's. Now I just need to figure out the software needed. I am guessing LSPcad or Soundeasy?

Jeff Bagby's PCD gets a lot of praise in the techtalk forum and is free if you have M$ excell.

http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html

[---k---]

PCD has been used to complete a lot of good designs. CJD uses Speaker Workshop, which is also free, but iirc has a somewhat steep learning curve due to some quirkiness. But, I've heard that Soundeasy and LSPcad also have steep learning curves.... I solve all my crossover problems by paying CJD to design what every I dream up. :B

[Silver1omo]

....I solve all my crossover problems by paying CJD to design what every I dream up. :B

That is a good solution

[jmik26]

PCD has been used to complete a lot of good designs. CJD uses Speaker Workshop, which is also free, but iirc has a somewhat steep learning curve due to some quirkiness. But, I've heard that Soundeasy and LSPcad also have steep learning curves.... I solve all my crossover problems by paying CJD to design what every I dream up. :B

Sent CJD and Paul C a PM.... Thanks for the help.. Jeff

[JonW]

So do you guys build an ideal crossover for the speakers parameters, build the cabinets and crossovers then measure? From there you do cabinet modifications and crossover tweaks to fine tune. What instruments do you guys use to measure the speakers, design crossovers?
I noticed that there are no resistors in your crossovers. Is that because there was so much attention to detail on the cabinets or because they are better drivers?

Hi jmik26,

Yeah, Ryan (-k-) pretty much has the approach. I started out by testing different cabinet styles to see which would deal with diffraction, phase, etc. best. (Most people skip that step.) After that, the basic approach is to:
1. Place drivers in the real cabinet and take measurements to get data on how that specific driver/cabinet combination behaves. I found getting a working measurement rig and taking measurements to be the biggest pain in the (ahem-tweeter-ahem) for this whole process.
2. Use the measurement data to model a crossover on the computer. Look for good frequency response (flat), good phase overlap, and flat impedance.
3. Clip together this initial crossover and have a listen.
4. Change different parts and see what changes make it sound better. Remodel and bit and tweak a bit. (Some people skip this part.)
5. Solder it all up and close the box.
6. Post your design on the web so that everyone thinks that you are really better at speaker design than you really are. I spent most of my time on this step.

There are, indeed, resistors in the Spassvogel crossover.

If you want to roll your own, go for it! I’m really glad that I did. Although I don’t know if I would have done it had I known what I was getting myself in for. The only reason that I have not been making more speakers since then is that a baby came along which has made like super busy. But I want to get back to speaker design when time allows. I have several projects in mind.

I used LspCAD for the crossover design and measurements (JustMLS is a measurement program within LspCAD). I like the LspCAD part. JustMLS is bare bones, difficult to figure out (for me, at least), but does get the job done.

If you’re near Chicago and want to hear the Spassvogels, I’m ~3 hours southeast.

-=-=-
Ryan, by the way:

You say that you're more into smoking meat than building speakers now. You know that smoked meat is *full* of carcinogens, right? A little now and then is probably OK but I wouldn't eat the stuff every day. Chemically, it's kind of like the meat smoked a cigarette.