Sunflower Redux

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  • Undefinition
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2006
    • 577

    Sunflower Redux

    I have learned so much in the three years since I originally designed the Sunflowers. I was plagued by the thought, "What would I do differently now, knowing what I do?" Eventually, I couldn't take it anymore, and went at it. The result was more work than I expected, but very worth it.

    The Sunflower Redux is an entirely different-sounding speaker than the original. Where the original was very "live" and almost seemed to bound around the room, these have a very precise and focused sound--with imaging and soundstage on-par with my best "boxed" designs. The real benefit of the dipole mids is the lack of "coloration" from being in an enclosure. (Funny, isn't that what Linkwitz and Kreskovsky were saying all along?)

    Of course, taking a driver out of an enclosure causes a whole slew of issues--many of which I glossed over in the past, but now I was willing to deal with head-on. I did my homework this time, and really read up on Linkwitz' and Kreskovsky's sites (Which were very helpful, by the way. Thanks, guys!). Then there was a lot of trial and error, and measurements of all different kinds.

    I'm extremely pleased with this re-design. The Sunflower Redux fit in well with the rest of my designs in terms of an "overall sound." They seem happy playing any style of music, and don't seem to be influenced by the room they're playing in (within reason, of course).

    I regret to say that I had to switch over from Passive Crossover Designer to LspCAD to complete this design. PCD is still my preferred software, but it didn't allow me the flexibility to re-arrange components to achieve the response I wanted. (I'm not saying this kind of design couldn't be done in PCD. I've heard Jeff B's "Archos" design for Salk Sound... it's quite awesome)

    Crossover and graphs attached below. More details are in the writeup .
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Undefinition; 15 March 2011, 21:06 Tuesday.
    Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
    Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site
  • john trials
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 449

    #2
    I've listened to John K's open baffle speakers, which got me interested in OB designs. I've had a desire to build the Sunflowers (but I've got to sell off some existing speakers first!). Just out of curiosity, can you post the old crossover (mainly for my own educational purposes)?
    Statements: "They usually kill the desire to build anything else."

    Comment

    • oneplustwo
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2010
      • 666

      #3
      Wow, you got these done earlier than I thought. Or maybe it's just taking me longer to finish mine than I thought! Either way, sounds like a worthwhile upgrade. Thanks for not changing the woofer components... that will save me a little money at least!

      Do you have a BOM already or is that still in the works? No more L-pad?
      Zaph SR-71
      Zaph ZDT 3.5
      Sunflower Redux
      12" Dayton HF sub
      CJD RS 150 MT
      Revelator bookshelf
      2x12 Guitar cab
      Corner loaded line array

      Comment

      • Undefinition
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2006
        • 577

        #4
        Here is a Bill of Materials. **nevermind, full of mistakes** New BOM below
        Last edited by Undefinition; 15 March 2011, 00:41 Tuesday.
        Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
        Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

        Comment

        • Saurav
          Super Senior Member
          • Dec 2004
          • 1166

          #5
          That looks really good. Is the first chart the calculated or measured frequency response? Also, do you have any off-axis measurements for the full system?

          Comment

          • ---k---
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Nov 2005
            • 5204

            #6
            Nice job Paul. :T
            - Ryan

            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

            Comment

            • oneplustwo
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2010
              • 666

              #7
              Hey Paul,

              Could you double check the BOM for the 8.0mH inductor? I get a 6.0mH 18 AWG I Core Inductor when I put the part number in parts-express. I think you meant part number 266-576. I already have the 8.2P-core from my first order so it doesn't (I think) impact me, but just thought I'd double check for you.

              The only other discrepancy I noticed is the pricing for the 1.5mH and 4.0mH inductors but I assume that's just normal pricing fluctuation. But thought I'd mention it since it made we question whether the price was right and the part was wrong or vice-versa.

              Thanks again for all your hard work on this! I'm going to end up buying parts for two sets of crossovers (except for the woofer) so maybe I'll do some A/B listening once it's all said and done and try to corroborate your listening impressions with my layman ears.

              Cheers!
              Zaph SR-71
              Zaph ZDT 3.5
              Sunflower Redux
              12" Dayton HF sub
              CJD RS 150 MT
              Revelator bookshelf
              2x12 Guitar cab
              Corner loaded line array

              Comment

              • Undefinition
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2006
                • 577

                #8
                Oh crap. You're right. I actually really appreciate you going through the BOM line-by-line. Like I said, errors in oversight...

                I'll fix it tonight after work.
                Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                Comment

                • ttan98
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 153

                  #9
                  Paul,

                  Maybe you may want to add a rear tweeter to make a true open baffle from midrange/midbass upwards.

                  Comment

                  • Undefinition
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 577

                    #10
                    BOM, for real, I hope

                    Note to self: when writing Bill of Materials, don't rush! (this is why I'm not an accountant for a living)

                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Undefinition; 15 March 2011, 21:05 Tuesday.
                    Isn't it about time we started answering rhetorical questions?
                    Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Site

                    Comment

                    • oneplustwo
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2010
                      • 666

                      #11
                      Looks good Paul! I double-checked it again. Trust, but verify.

                      Quick question for you... is it ok to go from the tweeter positive tab to the "second" mid-range positive tab? It's all the same electrically, right? Just trying to plan out my wiring/cabling and keep it as neat as I can.
                      Zaph SR-71
                      Zaph ZDT 3.5
                      Sunflower Redux
                      12" Dayton HF sub
                      CJD RS 150 MT
                      Revelator bookshelf
                      2x12 Guitar cab
                      Corner loaded line array

                      Comment

                      • ttan98
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 153

                        #12
                        Paul,

                        Use MiniDSP, may end up cheaper and sounds better!

                        Comment

                        • tjk002
                          Junior Member
                          • Aug 2006
                          • 7

                          #13
                          Ok, so I'm getting ready to start on a set of speakers for my great room. I built (years ago) the focal orca HT MTMWW for my basement theater and was very happy with them. I am very intrigued by the Sunflowers in this thread. Does anyone know if the crossover can easily be modded to fit two of the 8 inch RS drivers (sealed) in the bass bin?

                          Thanks in advance.

                          Comment

                          • oneplustwo
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2010
                            • 666

                            #14
                            Not easily. But why change the original? Works fine as is.
                            Zaph SR-71
                            Zaph ZDT 3.5
                            Sunflower Redux
                            12" Dayton HF sub
                            CJD RS 150 MT
                            Revelator bookshelf
                            2x12 Guitar cab
                            Corner loaded line array

                            Comment

                            • tjk002
                              Junior Member
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 7

                              #15
                              My concern is that my room is huge, its 20 x 20 ( with 18 ft ceilings) and opens into the breakfast room and kitchen which is another 20 x 25. I had a set of MG12s with the modded crossover, and loved their sound (but they didn't play nearly loud enough). I'm hoping something along these lines ( I would love to do the statements but don't think I'm to that level yet) will sound as good or better.

                              Comment

                              • IntoAudio
                                Junior Member
                                • Jun 2014
                                • 1

                                #16
                                Hi, I'm new here and also new to DIY speaker construction. I am currently working toward building the Sunflower Redux and have a question for Paul or anyone else. Before I found this thread, I'd consulted with Chris F at PE.com, asking for his help in specifying the crossover components. He obliged and I ordered the parts. Afterward I found this BOM, and most parts are the same as I ordered. However, for C4,C5,C6,C7 Chris specified the polypropylene capacitors (027-441, -449, -430, -360 respectively). What is the difference in function and/or performance between the PP and non-electrolytic capacitors in this circuit? I did order the ones from Paul's BOM just for insurance, but would like to know which to use. The PP's are a little more expensive, but I guess that is not relevant.

                                Comment

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