Small piano speakers that can get loud? hah?

[CZ Eddie]

I know, I know. You can have one or the other...

I'm hoping for some DIY recommendations for (4 each) small bookshelf speakers that sound awesome for piano music, but can also stay clean when played loud'ish. These need to play well down to my subwoofer, which is low passed at 80hz.
Sealed of course, to get the size I need.

These will be mounted to walls in my 1800 cu.ft. bedroom home theater. I'm thinking something similar to the 5 1/4" SpeakerLabs Point1 kit?

Budget about $170/pair, but flexible.

http://speakerlab.com/pointline.html#Point1

Speakerlabs Point1 pic below:

[cjd]

go into the walls a bit: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33761


I don't recommend a 6" driver or smaller crossed even at 80Hz, but stepping up to the 7" is a world of difference, both in how low the reach and how loud they can go before falling apart.

[Undefinition]

maybe an MTM would get you some more sensitivity. 'Course, not many MTMs in that price range. But it's just an idea.

[CZ Eddie]

go into the walls a bit: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33761

Do you recommend those over complete in-walls? Or as main L & R speakers?
I'm not so sure I want to get into the wall. I'd like to keep this room as sound resistant from other rooms as possible.

Those are some BIG speakers too, btw.

I don't recommend a 6" driver or smaller crossed even at 80Hz, but stepping up to the 7" is a world of difference, both in how low the reach and how loud they can go before falling apart.

Sealed or ported or both?

maybe an MTM would get you some more sensitivity. 'Course, not many MTMs in that price range. But it's just an idea.

That's getting kind of big also.

[cjd]

Do you recommend those over complete in-walls? Or as main L & R speakers?
I'm not so sure I want to get into the wall. I'd like to keep this room as sound resistant from other rooms as possible.

Those are some BIG speakers too, btw.

Sealed or ported or both?

You aren't getting loud to 80Hz with much smaller. Ported, 6" usually tops out ~95dB@1m on excursion IF you're passing to a sub, maybe a bit more. But by then midrange distortion from excursion is noticeable IMO. Sealed they're not really up to 80Hz usually - if they are, sensitivity is crap. 80Hz means ported most times on a 6" and that means a bigger box than is necessary - might as well go 7" driver and sealed.

And they're definitely NOT big. Well, sunk into the wall. Not tiny, to be sure, but not big. Except the sound. Sound in another room would be a non-issue - no different than mounting on the wall, anyhow. Ceiling would diminish somewhat, but it would be negligible either way I think.

Vs complete in-walls, that's hard to say. If you have ideal placing, an in-wall can be good but often don't have box depth to really do things right. These don't really do as well with the tweeter firing at the listener, so may already be off the table. Buf if you're putting them high on a wall anyhow and you start getting into that 30degree+ off-axis ideal window (from the tweeter, on-ish axis with the mid-woofer) they really do some interesting things.

Also, what kind of piano? Old(er) Classical? Modern? Or Brickman style?

That said, I missed your budget. Pretty sure these are out of that since drivers alone hit it. Crossover not super complex so close-ish-ish. For me.

I tend to optimize box size - it's subtle, but worth it IMO. It's easy to just keep getting smaller, and you could with these if you needed to. drop a couple inches off the depth - you won't hear it except in an A-B comparison, and 80Hz will be fine (I cross at 70Hz and have played with 60Hz)

[neuro]

Some options:
Zaph ZA5.2 sealed
Swope sealed TM http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...1&postcount=34
RS180 Modula MT http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

[CZ Eddie]

Yikes, I was looking to get 85db capable of brief peaks of 105db at 12'.
It's been so long since I've had a SMALL speaker that I must be dreaming about I thought I remembered them being capable of.

I was originally going to build the in-wall version of the Modula MT.
But I eventually decided against that due to not being able to angle the speaker at the listening position and also due to fear of sound transmitting out from behind the speaker and into the room it.
I've been planning to green glue the room and anything like this could potentially make that work "worthless". At least that's my fear, I have no real world experience with in-wall speakers.

Btw, I still have a pair of the Seas tweeters for the Modula MT. I'd put them up for sale at diyaudio.com but might keep them, depending on where this thread leads me to.

[Undefinition]

The Amiga/Core/TRS-80 sealed might get you where you want to go. (note: use a .375 cu ft PE enclosure. sealed)

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/updates/core2-waydaytonrs180rs28

[CZ Eddie]

The Amiga/Core/TRS-80 sealed might get you where you want to go. (note: use a .375 cu ft PE enclosure. sealed)

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga

http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...aytonrs180rs28

Looks like that Vifa tweeter is no longer available.

I want small but I also want near reference volume, capable of clean peaks above reference.

May just have to bite the bullet and go with the RS180 in a small sealed box.

My a/v receiver is rated for 140 watts per channel, so hopefully that's enough for a sealed 7" midwoofer to reach 85-105db.

[CZ Eddie]

Sound in another room would be a non-issue - no different than mounting on the wall, anyhow. Ceiling would diminish somewhat, but it would be negligible either way I think.

Not sure what you meant by ceiling?
These would be mounted via something like an omni-bracket. Not attached directly to the wall, but by a bracket that allows the speaker to be angled towards the listening position.

Do you really not hear additional noise in the next room with your in-wall setup?

Also, what kind of piano? Old(er) Classical? Modern? Or Brickman style?

All piano really. I am very particular about the individual piano notes sounding like they are being played in real life, in front of me. Crisp, accurate and just a little airy would be how I think I want to describe it?

[CZ Eddie]

Some options:
Zaph ZA5.2 sealed
Swope sealed TM http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...1&postcount=34
RS180 Modula MT http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

The Zaph is interesting, but I will only use a black cone speaker. I think the silver cones are ugly. That's just my own opinion though. I don't want speaker covers for anything I build.

The Modula MT would be awesome, but I think it was a little on the expensive side the last time I checked?

[Undefinition]

Looks like that Vifa tweeter is no longer available.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1020

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=8657

Vifa changed suppliers for the dome, so the part # changed slightly. However, the new one measures the same.

[neuro]

How far over budget the Modula MT is depends mostly upon the quality of crossover parts you go with. Drivers are <$50 each. Looks like the wrong version of the RS180 is on sale right now... So, ~$190 for drivers, for a pair of boxes, right now.
Maybe someone can chime in on how bad an idea this would be; keep the baffle width the same, but build box as a wedge so that you can aim the drivers closer to your ears. Crossover would probably need to be close to the regular on-wall version.

[cjd]

So, a few things:

1. I'm exceedingly picky about distortion creeping in - 85dB with 105dB peaks can be done on a single TM with a 6" driver, but I can pretty much guarantee you're dealing with some midrange distortion from excursion by that point - on the Abouriou (and particularly the Ansonica, which has mad excursion available) it's quite clear and even something a less trained ear can pick up on once it's pointed out.

2. The TM I did is very much intended for in-wall, on-wall directly at worst - put it away and things will work less and less well. It excels on being good anywhere you are despite not being aimed right, but it's not going to work as well if you put it on a mount out from the wall - it depends on that surface interaction.

C

[madmac]

1800 square feet is a BIG room so like the other posters here say, at a 80hz crossover I would go with a 7-8 inch driver for sure. since you want them wall mounted, then it will have to be sealed as well.

[CZ Eddie]

Thanks, guys.

Btw, it's 1800 cubic feet, not square.
The room is somewhere around 16'd x 14'w x8'h.

Tonight I'm leaning towards Modula MT sealed with Jay's less expensive crossover variant.
That will change again by tomorrow though, I'm sure.
Choosing speakers to build is harder than going into a store and buying them. Which I actually haven't done in about 20 years, now that I think about it.

[JonP]

Yikes, I was looking to get 85db capable of brief peaks of 105db at 12'.

Having built a pair, I think I could say they are capable of doing that, and even more... though at that point they are likely getting up against the limits or should we say, the start of rapidly rising distortion.

For any speaker you would call "small" that spec is a tough one to meet.

Btw, I still have a pair of the Seas tweeters for the Modula MT. I'd put them up for sale at diyaudio.com but might keep them, depending on where this thread leads me to.

You are aware that the later version used the RS28A? Maybe a tough call, but I'd guess the RS28 might have an edge in being able to handle more power with lower distortion, but I'm not sure. If this was a really low crossover design, it might matter more, but as I recall the MT wasn't really low like the Modula MTM is. FWIW, I built the version with the RS28.