Jim Holtz's Statement Monitors using Baltic Birtch

[Hopkinsstevea]

Gentleman
I just new on this forum and a complete Newbie when it comes to building speakers. I am however a serious woodworker with lots of tools at my disposal.I'm very interested in building Jim Holtz's Statement Monitors and would like to know if its possible to use Baltic Birtch for the boxes instead of MDF ? would there be any downside to using Baltic Birtch? The reason I ask is I'm very allergic to MDF dust and break out very bad when I come in contact with it.
Anyway looks like a fun project and a great forum thanks for your time

[1Michael]

BB would work just fine, I have used it several times myself.

[AdelaaR]

I think MDF is denser and more absorbing than actual wood ... so it might make a difference.
Not sure though ... I am a newbie myself.

[Bear]

I think MDF is denser and more absorbing than actual wood ... so it might make a difference.
Not sure though ... I am a newbie myself.

The only real downside is the unit conversion. High-quality Baltic Birch is shipped in mixed-dimension quantities so you end-up with 60"x60" panel that's 18mm thick for the 0.75" nominal size. The half-inch thick panels are really only 12mm. A small but occasionally important difference.

Advantages:
- Stiffer
- Less brittle
- Larger-sized dust particles
- Fewer toxins
- Better ability to hold a screw
- Careful use of faces and joining and you can get by without veneering

Disadvantages:
- Cost
- Availability

Really, BB is the way to go unless you are springing for LBL or something more exotic.

[Hopkinsstevea]

Thanks to everyone for there quick response,I guess Baltic Birch will be the way to go (For me anyways)I would like to do something along these lines which for me is quite doable

[Coconutout]

Yup, I agree with Bear 100%. I have used both mdf and bb for the statement builds. first, full sized statements in mdf then the monitors in bb. From my experience I can recommend bb as the better choice. It's easier to work with, looks better, non-toxic, and sound wise, gives a certain coloration that's warm and musical. I have commented in the past that my full sized statements were a tad bit clinical sounding. I can no longer say the same for the monitors that are built out of bb. You won't regret it either ways, though. It's a fantastic design and I intend to keep mine for life cheers.

[Jim Holtz]

Gentleman
I just new on this forum and a complete Newbie when it comes to building speakers. I am however a serious woodworker with lots of tools at my disposal.I'm very interested in building Jim Holtz's Statement Monitors and would like to know if its possible to use Baltic Birtch for the boxes instead of MDF ? would there be any downside to using Baltic Birtch? The reason I ask is I'm very allergic to MDF dust and break out very bad when I come in contact with it.
Anyway looks like a fun project and a great forum thanks for your time

Welcome to the Statements family. I think you'll be pleased when you hear the final result.

I appreciate getting all the credit but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that the Statements would not be the success they've become if it wasn't for Curt, the wizard that made them sound as good as the do. It was under his direction that the Statements came together.

Good luck with the build!

Jim

[Cort]

IMHO solid wood is the way to go. I think of it like the difference between an instrument made from laminate vs one from fine tone wood. Sure the laminate can sound really good. but the handcrafted all koa sounds amazing. just make sure you tap it out as you put it together, as a Luther would, otherwise you can end up with some nasty resonances.

[AdelaaR]

Those nasty resonances make me nervous and they are the main reason I perceive MDF to be more suited for the task of cabinet building than actual wood.
What is this "tap it out" you speak of?
How can this make sure the wood will not resonate too much?
Thanks for your input ... I might go for actual wood if it is an option.

[cjd]

IMHO solid wood is the way to go. I think of it like the difference between an instrument made from laminate vs one from fine tone wood. Sure the laminate can sound really good. but the handcrafted all koa sounds amazing. just make sure you tap it out as you put it together, as a Luther would, otherwise you can end up with some nasty resonances.

For so many reasons no. Even just a solid wood baffle is a pain on the woodworking side (dimensional stability) not to mention the box is supposed to be inert. Resonances are usually mitigated wit h bracing. Any in a box are "nasty"

I detest working with MDF so it is birch ply for me. If I ever go expensive I may spring for bamboo.

[Bear]

IMHO solid wood is the way to go. I think of it like the difference between an instrument made from laminate vs one from fine tone wood. Sure the laminate can sound really good. but the handcrafted all koa sounds amazing. just make sure you tap it out as you put it together, as a Luther would, otherwise you can end up with some nasty resonances.

A few things to point out here:

1) Production vs. Reproduction - A loudspeaker is a reproduction instrument. If you want accuracy, you want to reproduce the recording (including all of its flaws and limitations) in your listening environment. That means that, to the extent possible, you are aiming for a dead neutral native sound for the speaker (which doesn't really exist, but you try). Resonances are bad under these conditions. For sound production, you have to have resonance or you have no sound.

2) Laminate vs. solid wood - laminates tend to be denser and more dimensionally stable. It is conceptually possible to seal a solid wood construction so that it was dimensionally stable, but then you are basically making a product out of resin with a wood core buried somewhere deep inside of it. Dimensional stability is important because you want the mechanical forces to be anchored solidly (back to that lack of native resonances thing).

3) Cost - Then, and only then, do you get to the cost side of things. Having a 1.5" baffle made out of solid Koa, with internal bracing and sidewalls of appropriate density, will quickly remind you of why people use veneers, with all of the hassle that entails. This is before you start to think about whether you only want to settle for 1.5" baffle thickness since having a dead launch platform is a Good Thing. If you are springing for solid Koa (or Bubinga or Teak or Mahogany or even Walnut, Hickory or Oak), why not go for something that's really good like what the truly high-end guys use (3" - 6" baffles)? This then gets back to that dimensional stability thing (with its corollary issues of cracking, splitting and warping).

Just some things to consider.

[Cort]

I apologize, I seem to have struck a nerve here, however I enjoy working with solid wood and have furniture and cabinets that are solid wood built by generations past and myself that do not have dimensional stability, or cracking issues. most are held together with glue and simple joinery. A solid wood/ply box is an easy build that will outlast anything built out of MDF by 100's of years. and potentially provide firewood to a future generation in a time of distress.

A string instrument is designed to reproduce the sound including resonances of the string, the box itself is designed/built to have as flat of a frequency response as possible across the spectrum of the string. Which is why a Luthier is constantly tapping and tweaking the braces of the instrument he is building to get as flat as response as possible throughout the body of the instrument.

To me, this is no different than a speaker cabinet. no matter what material you use it is going to affect the sound, unless you mass load it with maybe 1000 lbs. of concrete.

Now on to the experiment, with similar sized pieces of each material that you would use for a cabinet wall/ baffle say 1" x 12" x 4'. now take some 1"x2" strips and clamp the baffle on to the strips at the ends on to the work bench, leaving the 1.5" gap between the baffle and the workbench. and start tapping, now add more 1x2 so that it fits snuggly between the bench and the baffle, in the spots where you would be putting the bracing for your cabinet, tweak the around until the baffle gives a flat response wherever you tap it and judge for yourself what sounds the best. It is really pretty amazing what happens when you put the vertical braces for the mid tunnels like on the statement series, regardles of material, that is what sold me on the design
IMO plywood sounds better than MDF, Maple sounds better than pine and I'll bet that Koa would sound the best to me. But at now >$40 a board foot, I will probably never get to hear it. except from my guitar. A good mahogany though will come close and is affordable at < $10 a bft. For build like the statements whats a few hundred for wood.

[Curt C]

The beauty of DIY is you get to roll it your own way… MDF? BB? Exotic harwoods? You choose what works best for you.

Don't worry Cort, as everyone has their own way of looking at things. Most luthiers are in the business of creating sound. Speaker builders (for the most part) are in the business of reproducing it. Some commercial designs -Italian, I believe, but I can't remember the name, subscribe to your way of thinking, while most go for the advantages of inert enclosures. Both methods can provide quite listenable results.

I will say that I subscribe to the belief that the sole purpose of a speaker is the conversion from electrical to acoustical energy with as little added distortion as possible. Timber colorations caused by enclosure resonances are, in the strictest sense, simply added distortion. Depending on the source material, it might sound good, or it might sound detrimental, but in either case it is not faithful reproduction of the original recording.

Dimensional stability is important to speaker enclosures as since the grain will run different directions on adjacent panels, and with changes in temperature and humididty, the panels will grow at different rates depending on the grain orientation. Ultimately something will have to give, and the result is a split or crack that affects the seal of the enclosure. The simple joinery of fine furniture generally will allow for some growth, and its a non-issue there.

MDF is well damped, and for most speakers, in spite of its other issues, is still my material of choice, if nothing else, for its dimensional stability. In my experience, BB or other more resonant materials would benefit from the application of internal damping material and additional bracing. A loaded viscoelastic material should be used for panel damping, as acoustic foam used by itself will not damp panel resonances.

Jim as usual, is being too modest about his contributions to the Statement series. They were his brainchild after all, and wouldn’t even exist without his instigation of the project.

C

[AdelaaR]

Cort ... your comparison of a speaker cabinet to the box of an acoustic string instrument does sound wonderful but it is incorrect.
The cabinet of a speaker is supposed to kill sound whereas the cabinet of an acoustic instrument is supposed to augment sound.
You may however like the sound of wooden cabinets better because it would make the sound more coloured and that might be your taste.
As someone else has put it before: instruments are for production and speakers are for reproduction so this means that a "good" speaker should have as little colouration as possible.

[Cort]

I stand corrected. Thanks for talking me out it, I will just go with plywood. It's just that mini' I built from scrap sound so good and not colored at all, I was thinking maybe I could improve. just a little. for the statement build

[BOBinGA]

One of the guys here in the (frozen) ATL, Bob Howell, does some great looking boxes using solid wood panels. The ones I've seen have been smaller speakers, since it is easier to keep small panels from resonating. He posts here sometimes and hopefully he will see this and maybe give you a few pointer on how to keep solid wood stable and quiet.

-Bob

[Cort]

I will most likely stick with the original plan and use that tree in the other post, but have a few months to think about it. Any and all input is greatly appreciated.

[fordmaker]

Cort, I enjoyed your mini statement build and thought they were beautiful speakers. I don't think you should give up on the solid wood statements if they are what you want, without at least considering the challenges.

I do not have extensive experience as a DIY builder or as an acoustic instrument musician. That said, I did have a few thoughts regarding this thread. (Some of them may be valid, I hope!) To the best of my knowledge, the body of a guitar, violin, cello, etc. is intended to amplify the sound of the strings. The shape of the instruments usually include several complex curves which would improve linearity over a range of frequencies. The linearity is never perfect and quite variable, so the materials and craftsmanship easily differentiate a $100 student violin from a Stradivarius. Every acoustic instrument will have a characteristic sound resulting from shape and materials used.

The statement enclosure is a simple rectangular box and any resonances from it will likely have excessive peaks at a few frequencies resulting from its shape and dimensions. I believe that is why the designers chose to "deaden" the box as much as possible. The coloring of the sound which was once the domain of the woodworking craftsman is now performed through driver selection, careful crossover design and/or equalization. Many audio enthusiast prefer to not color the sound (source material) at all but to reproduce it as accurately as possible. This is because the recording already contains the unique sound of the live performance and/or instruments and to add anything to that would prevent you from hearing the source material as originally performed by the artist (or as captured by the recording engineer as the case may be.)

If you liked the sound of the mini statements, it stands to reason you will probably like the full size statements as well. They should sound very similar but have more impact and play louder in larger rooms. You already know the designers have done a great job with driver selection and crossover design. The challenges to be overcome and the cool part of "Do It Yourself" is can you build the cabinets out of hardwoods and minimize any unwanted non-linear box resonance and can you prevent humidity and temperature changes from compromising the integrity of the rather large enclosure? If so, you could have speakers which like your mini's, are truly beautiful one-of-a-kind works of art and sound great.

Matt

[AdelaaR]

Fordmaker, speaker cabinets should always "deaden" the interior sound.
That is what they do.
For directional higher frequencies this isn't such a problem but for omnidirectional lower frequencies it is vitally important.
If a box colours the sound that is always a bad thing.

[Silver1omo]

Fordmaker, speaker cabinets should always "deaden" the interior sound.
That is what they do.
For directional higher frequencies this isn't such a problem but for omnidirectional lower frequencies it is vitally important.
If a box colours the sound that is always a bad thing.

It is a bad thing, and then we have to remember that the beauty is in the eye of the beholder er... listener. So if Cort likes the sound he is getting then is not a bad thing for him...

Remember, this is a subjective hobby Music....

[Cort]

Thanks for the encouragement,
The minis are a prototype for statements built from that tree, because I did not think I could get away with building a speaker cabinet from the solid wood. The scaffold planks had been sitting in the loft of my sunroom for 10 years and seemed to me to be a worst case scenario. I estimated that it would probaly take me at least 100 hours cut the tree down, do the epoxy stabilization, take the logs to the saw mill etc.. So I attempted and succeeded in building a dead cabinet from the planks. Largely from studying the statement designs and bracing to stay both off notes and resonances. Plus I intentionally used the gorilla glue which more than doubled the apparent size of the bracing. and is flexible enough to allow the cabinet to grow/shrink 1-2%. I really don't think much about humidity here in new mexico. but if I were to get wood from texas their would be issues, I am sure.

I continue to be blown away by the accuracy of the mini's, most of what I listen to are recent live recordinds of bands we've seen. close my eyes and I am there.
In closing I have ordered a calibrated mic so I can quantify the results .
peace
Cort

[jpmst3]

Why not use BB and then assist the bracing in the reduction of resonances with spray on (in) bed liner or other 'deadening' material?
I would think that it has to be as effective as MDF in the end.