Powering my current builds

[joeybutts]

I've been debating on what I want to do to power my current HT builds. I know headroom is one of the biggest contributors to cleanliness, but I guess I don't know how much I need.

HT speakers to be completed sometime this coming year : -

L/R Khanspires
Center Dayton RS
Surrounds Markk RS22528A

Original plan was the following -
Emotiva UMC-1
Emotiva XPA-3 (L/C/R)
Emotiva UPA-2 (RS/LS)

Also considered -
AVR (processing and surrounds)
Emotiva XPA-3 (L/C/R)

I just don't know what I should have for power for these. I like the Emotiva equipment (price/performance) but am open to other considerations. I really would like to know about how much power I should shoot for on each stage.

I will be needing all new power/processing so all things considered.

[technodanvan]

Honestly the UPA-5 would probably be more than enough - and at it's holiday price it's a steal.

A lot of people seem to be down on the UMC-1. I have one and really haven't had an issue with it...but then I don't use some features too so maybe I'm not the best judge. Biggest problem I have is it can't have an HDMI pass-through option while off.

I haven't used any other receivers with HDMI switching so I don't know, but I'd guess this is a common theme. Which I think is kinda dumb, because a lot of times I'd like to watch a movie or play a game without the stereo on, especially late at night.

In any case, for a lower price - especially used or refurb on eBay - you could get an AVR to send the signal through for the Emo.

[john trials]

I did the conservative approach, building my system bit-by-bit (actually, I got really carried away with this DIY stuff!). I have Statements (L/R), Statement CC, Statement Monitors for surrounds, and an 18" Sonosub that's 24" diameter by about 7' tall.

I bought an Onkyo TX-SR707, mainly because it could handle 4 ohm loads, it has pre-outs in case I wanted/needed to add power amps of some sort, and it has Audyssey.

So far, I don't have the need for power amps (although my plan was to get a UPA-5 if I needed it). I've read from others that power amps really provide cleaner amplification, and I don't doubt it, but I haven't had the need yet...maybe I don't crank it up like others (my room is only about 13 x 16 x 8 ). The Onkyo has been superb. I'm very impressed.

I guess I'm just saying that if you don't know how much power you need, start out with an A/V receiver with pre-outs, so a power upgrade is easy, if necessary.

[joeybutts]

Thanks gents!

Both of you seem to be leading me down the same path and that is good. I do like the option of having a receiver capable of powering them as well as handling the processing duties. Expandability on top of the receiver makes it a very viable, and almost common sense solution.

What are some good options for an AVR capable of 4 ohm loads and having the expandability?

[rdrowley]

I also have the TX-SR707 and love it, but they don't sell them any more, it being last years model. I'd look at the TX-NR808 or TX-NR708. I think you have a hard time beating Onkyo on performance and features for the price.

Others to look at would be Yamaha RX-V867 and Denon AVR-2311CI, but you will certainly pay a fair amount more with those solutions.

[---k---]

Emotiva has many fans, some that I respect, so I think you are safe buying their gear.

It's not all about wattage. The Khans up front have above normal sensitivity and don't need a lot of wattage, but they do have a demanding impedance so they do benefit from a stout amp. Double Ditto for the center channel if you're using CJD's cross over. And even the rears have a nasty 2.8 ohm min impedance up in the tweeter range. And of course it all comes down to how big is your room and how load do you want to play them.

I think the low impedance loads justify a separate amp if you can afford it. Receivers, often aren't rated for 4 ohm loads, or rated for 4 ohm for just the mains. I couldn't really tell what the Onkyo is rated for, it looks intentionality confusing.

There is absolutely no reason though that you couldn't get the Onkyo today and try it out. If it works and you're happy, you've saved some $$. If it doesn't, you can move on to adding an amp. Based upon the specs, the UPA-5 seems like it would be a good middle ground. While shipping is expensive, the home trial option will let you find out for sure.

Oh, and CJD would recommend monoblocks next to each speaker.

[john trials]

From the searching I did in the summer prior to buying mine, I found that the Onkyo TX-SR707 was the least expensive model that Onkyo says can handle 4 ohm loads. I'm not sure what they have now, as everything seems to be changing to the NR (network-compatible) style.

[Silver1omo]

The TX NR708 is supposed to handle 4 ohms and you can find it for around $549 shipped. I ordered 1 and I'm waiting for it (I hate customs...).

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-NR708&class=Receiver&p=s

[LoveDoctor]

The TX NR708 is supposed to handle 4 ohms and you can find it for around $549 shipped. I ordered 1 and I'm waiting for it (I hate customs...).
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=...s=Receiver&p=s

I've had my 708 for about 2 months now, and have finally got it all tweaked and beaten into submission. I love it so far. Audyssey does wonders for the sub EQ (though I wish there was more flexibility with the main channels). The amplifier is more than enough for my AviaTrices and I suspect it would do fine with larger speakers as well.

Joseph, knowing your penchant (on other forums) for going overboard on buying stuff, and that you are in an apartment with shared walls, I'd say get a good AVR first and consider separate amps once you are the school superintendant and live in a swanky mansion. Save your cash and buy your ever-patient girlfriend a nice Xmas present.

[Face]

Another 707 owner here. I vote for the receiver/amp combo. First off, Emo's processor is known to be buggy. Second, while the 707 can power 4ohm speakers, it doesn't sound as good at high volumes as when using an external amp.

[joeybutts]

Ryan- Thanks for the suggestions!

Ryan (---k---) - I agree on how the manufacturers make it very difficult to decipher if their equipment is suitable for 4ohm applications. How much power monoblocks? 200W for my front stage? If the UPA-5 is a nice middle ground, I may look to going that route if it is enough power to get the most out of the equipment I will be using. That's my biggest concern. I want to have a bit more power than my speakers will be able to use.

Thanks to the Oink rec's fellas!

Go overboard Doc? ME? NEVER......... She has a VERY NICE present coming in the early springtime.....she'll be fine.

Thanks Face. I think I'll go the AVR route with the power amp. Now deciding just how much power I need.

How do you determine that on these custom builds? Would the Khan's use nearly all 200W from an amplifier? or the Dayton RS benefit from that much?

I listen loud, just about all the time.

[KnightsOfNi]

Hi guys.
When I was making a similar decision I had a full set of Paradigm Studio's which are known to love power.
I toyed with the idea of the XPA-3 for the front stage leaving the rears to the receiver, but what helped me decide was, if I ever want a pre pro later I would not need another amp.
So my suggestion for a 5ch system is a 5 channel amp, XPA-5 or UPA-5.
Would a XPA-5 not be cheaper than a XPA-3 plus UPA-2?
I know guys get crazy with lots of power, but getting the XPA-5 has kept my upgrade bug quiet for a while now.
The only reason to change now would be to feed the mains more power (which I don't need) or mono blocks for better separation (that I can't hear)
I just feel, give those nice large speakers good clean power.
Regards
Knights
P.S. I am one of those guys who believe that a receiver can not do most speakers justice, I had a good receiver and was blown away at the difference an amp made

[cjd]

From what I have read, a stack of UPA-1's would be a worthwhile alternative to consider vs the XPA-3 (though price goes up, not a whole lot IIRC ?) - if you are using single-ended line-level runs, the amp next to the speaker is probably less ideal than a longer speaker-level run, though it again depends - if the rack is right in the middle, it probably would work well either way.

The Onkyo gear (6xx up I think) is genuinely 4ohm stable. I don't consider it optimal, but it's what I still use in my own HT - upgrades to the power section isn't cheap, so I'm saving up while waiting to see if a balanced pre-pro shows up in the mean time... I got my Onkyo refurbished, and dirt-cheap. It has exceedingly finicky HDMI inputs (I'm afraid to even bump the cable) - perhaps due to a previous owner, and the reason it was "refurbished". I'm more likely to get 3xUPA-1 and 2xUPA-2 + UMC-1 but we'll see. I only have a USP-1 but I've been pretty happy with it. Good enough. I'll probably try a couple UPA-1's in my main rig before schlepping them to the HT - the Outlaw's I have right now are just way too noisy (transformer hum, NOT in the line, it's audible even with everything soft-off)

[bigbardmusiq]

I bought a 1000 series Onkyo receiver and I was perfectly happy until I got a XPA-3. At least a 40% imrovement in sound quality.

[joeybutts]

Thanks fellas for the thoughts. Before reading the last three posts, I had found an Onkyo TX-NR807 for $550 and think that may be the way for me to go right now. Then weigh what I would like to do, more towards Knights's thoughts or more towards Chris's thoughts.

I just want to be able to start listening to the new gear sooner than later when it is finally finished.

I'm gonna weigh my options between the mono blocks and the 5 or 7 channels.

[joeybutts]

I guess my decisions come down to questions I've been asking that haven't been answered.

As I look over the choices, do the MarkK RS22528A bookshelves (as surrounds) gain anything by being amplified by more than the receiver?

Do the Khanspires gain anything by being powered by 300W instead of 185W?

Cause if the answers are no and yes respectively I'm gonna pick up the XPA-3.

If the answers are yes and yes I would go with the mono blocks.

If the answer is yes and no, then I would go with the UPA-5.

[cjd]

There is more to it than that. Watts aren't always watts.

The answer is "yes and yes" though you DO need to pay attention to diminishing returns and where you want to put your money. You'll gain more in the long haul with discrete amplification across the front vs surrounds, but you'd still gain if you listen to music mixed for surround (or really good sound-tracks)

If you're just listening to stuff where it's noise no matter what, a little extra noise in surrounds from the amp won't be nearly as important, so while the technically correct answer may be "yes and yes" the likely useful answer may be "no and yes" - though of course "no and no" is also true to the same extent - how likely are you to USE extra headroom? Putting better amplification up front won't be about watts alone, but also about how you GET the power.

XPA-1 for each front channel or bust.

C

[Face]

A few friends of mine have owned both series, XPA and UPA. For music, I would choose the XPA series. For HT only, either would be fine.

[AdelaaR]

I wonder why anyone would need 300W for normal home use.
I've given parties with 25 watts. (real seventies watts not the PMPO stuff of today)
I've got an 80 Watts amplifier and if I crank it up to the maximum ... I can stand 30 yards away and still almost go deaf.
Compare it to cars: do you ever really use the total power of your car?
You speak of "headroom" and I think you are right ... an amp should be able to cope with large amperages over short timeframes.
Maybe they had different ways of expressing the power in the seventies

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Still a big fan of the one box simplicity of my Emotiva UPA-7. I am running ZDT3.5's which should be similar in efficiency to your Khanspires. I have no need nor desire for a larger amplifier or multiples of larger amplifiers. A buddy of mine has total overkill with (3) Emotiva XPA-1's driving Polk Lsi series stuff. His speakers are more power hungry than mine, but we have driven his Lsi-15's in a heads up test with my ZDT3.5's and we did not want for power. The UPA-7 is also well priced(allows me to buy more music/blurays to play on my system).

[technodanvan]

I would think 'yes and no' would be your best answer, unless you have a very large room and want for deafening levels, the extra power likely won't gain you a whole heck of a lot.

I still think a UPA-5 is your best bet, I'm considering selling my XPA-2 and getting one myself. As CSFG mentioned, the 'one box simplicity' in itself makes it worthwhile. If you go with monoblocks you likely won't hear a difference and you would have to find room for all of them.

[cjd]

Comparing a 25W and a 200W amp, the distortion as you push output level is VERY audible as you near maximum. Especially as you start pushing drivers closer to their suspension limits where they can push "against" the amp intention... I can't remember what this is called just now :P

I don't know what amp you used in the 70's, but the nature of the distortion profile as it pushes beyond optimal is very different from amp-to-amp and this can make one amp sound just fine cranked all the way, and another sound terrible at 1/10 its power output and still 25W.

[AdelaaR]

I was "made" in 1979 but born in 1980, so I wasn't even here yet in the seventies but all my audio equipment is from that period ... mainly because I like the build quality, sound & look of them.
Most of the music I listen to is seventies too so that might be another reason I love vintage audio stuff
The amps I am talking about are the Pioneer SA6300 with 25 watts and the Sansui AU-9900 with 80 watts .... especially with that last one I never am able to crank it up to the maximum in normal listening ... I hardly ever go to half of the power to reach a comfortable and little distorted sound.
Sound distortion mainly comes from speakers anyway ... my amp has something like 0,02% yet many speakers have 20% which is 1000 times more and that's exactly the reason why I want new speakers btw

[AdelaaR]

One other thing we need to clear up is what we mean by "an amp of x watts".
When I say my amp has 80 watts I mean 80 sustainable watts per channel ... not 80 watts max amp power consumption for 1 millisecond.
These days I see amps claiming to have 2000 watts yet when I hear them I chuckle and wonder how those 2000 watts can sound so powerless and dull