OT: Balance integrated amp?

[SoundOfNothing]

I need your opinion for a truly balanced integrated amp (not one that just accepts balanced xlr but converts it, balanced throughout). Hopefully something < $600 used. Just don't know what's out there that is balanced and sounds great.

[Face]

The only fully balanced integrated amps that I'm aware of are in the $1500-2500+ range.

[Glen B]

I don't know of any fully differential amp that goes for less than $600.00. Why MUST the amp be fully balanced ? Will you be running very long interconnects and need the immunity from noise ? You should be focusing more on how an amp performs rather than amplifier topology. There are fine single ended amps that can sound every bit as good as ones that are fully balanced.

[SoundOfNothing]

I don't know of any fully differential amp that goes for less than $600.00. Why MUST the amp be fully balanced ? Will you be running very long interconnects and need the immunity from noise ? You should be focusing more on how an amp performs rather than amplifier topology. There are fine single ended amps that can sound every bit as good as ones that are fully balanced.

Hi, my source is balanced and was designed to run balanced, hence why I wanted to grab a balanced integrated.

[stuofsci02]

The new XSP-1 from Emotiva is going to be balanced..

http://emonatics.com/XSP-1.shtml#Pre1Pics

I have the USP-1 and is it a helluva pre for the price..

[cjd]

Integrated? Nope. You'd have to go DIY to hit your budget, I think.

[Face]

The new XSP-1 from Emotiva is going to be balanced..

http://emonatics.com/XSP-1.shtml#Pre1Pics

I have the USP-1 and is it a helluva pre for the price..

FYI, balanced inputs and/or outputs does not mean the unit is fully balanced, it just means it has XLR jacks. There are many units out there with XLR jacks that are not fully balanced. Unless it's specifically stated, assume it only has singled ended circuitry.

[5th element]

There is absolutely no advantage to having a fully balanced power amplifier section. In fact it's a disadvantage.

A fully balanced power amp is a bridged amplifier. In simple terms this is using two single ended power amplifier channels, per bridged channel. One channel handles the +, one the - and the summation is done at the loudspeaker.

The advantage to this is that when operating on the same voltage rails, twice the nominal voltage swing can be realised with a bridged amp over the standard single ended amplifier. This yields higher output powers.

Output transistors can handle higher currents whilst operating at lower rail voltages, so for high power designs bridging makes a lot of sense, but this is also the catch. This is why you cannot see many (any) fully bridged integrated amplifiers at your price point.

First of all it's easy enough to get say up to 250 W.P.C @ 8ohms out of a single ended amplifier, provided you've used enough output pairs. Say 5 pairs, or 6 if you really want more capability into semi stubborn loads. This is already an expensive amplifier, requiring a 1kVA+ transformer and a formidable amount of heat sinking. There is simply no reason to go bridged. Up to and possibly a bit beyond this point, it's more cost effective to build a single ended power amp.

If you want more power you have to increase the voltage the power rails are at and into reactive loads you start needing a prohibitive number of output transistors. The trick here, is to go bridged. This is why all the Krell monster amps offer fully balanced operation, because it's required to achieve the monster output powers.

Technically though, you get better specs from using a single ended amplifier. And to take advantage of your sources balanced output, all you really need is a balanced input in the preamp stage of your integrated.

Edit - But as Face mentioned do check to see if your source really does have true balanced outputs. If it doesn't all you're doing by going balanced is injecting more noise into the system due to the extra number of active components required for balanced operation.

[cbark]

Just an observation, he did say used, and there is no mention of power requirements. But as 5th said above, a fully balanced design usually is a higher power type design. I'm sure somebody knows something out there...

[SoundOfNothing]

Just an observation, he did say used, and there is no mention of power requirements. But as 5th said above, a fully balanced design usually is a higher power type design. I'm sure somebody knows something out there...

Yup my source is fully balanced, power output > 50 watts is more then enough for my needs. Used is what Im looking for; problem is I dont know which models/designs are fully balanced on say audiogon. Im not against single ended but i have a fully balanced source and want to keep the chain that way.

[Glen B]

Not all differential amplifiers are of balanced bridged design. In fact, engineer Ralph Karsten, designer of award winning Atma-Sphere products has stated in the past that balanced operation does not necessarily require twice as many components, and it is a common myth that it does. Classé has made such balanced designs, as well as ones that have double the parts, as in the CA-M400. Ralph ought to know what he is talking about as he not only builds balanced designs, his company pioneered their use in high end audio.

[stuofsci02]

FYI, balanced inputs and/or outputs does not mean the unit is fully balanced, it just means it has XLR jacks. There are many units out there with XLR jacks that are not fully balanced. Unless it's specifically stated, assume it only has singled ended circuitry.

Yes.. I understand that. It is supposed to be fully balanced..

[BobEllis]

There is absolutely no advantage to having a fully balanced power amplifier section. In fact it's a disadvantage.
...

Technically though, you get better specs from using a single ended amplifier...

Not always - See Pass super symmetry designs. These amps get better distortion numbers when fed from a balanced source.

This is "probably" out of your budget unless you can find one falling off a truck but http://passlabs.com/integrateds.htm If you can handle a soldering iron, visit DIYaudio where there are plenty of Pass clone projects with support from the man himself. Don't be fooled by the published distortion figures of the commercial amps. They do a lot better, I suppose that NP doesn't want to get into that super low distortion race at the expense of sound quality.

[5th element]

I guess not always would be the correct way to look at it and I am sure you can implement a fully balanced design without resorting to bridging too.

The increase in distortion from going single ended to bridged, as far as I understand it, is a reduction in linearity within the output stage itself. This is already a minor factor when considering the distortion mechanisms within a solid state amp and will only be apparent if the rest of the design is optimised towards super low distortion.

I suppose that bridging or using a fully balanced amp will cause cancellation of even order harmonics? Which could explain why you would see lower distortion for the bridged amplifier perhaps.

[JonP]

Hmmm... not sure if this fully fills the bill, would need some kind of preamp I guess to end up an "integrated" amp... but a rather unique, balanced and symmetric Chipamp based kit: http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/ampl...sympatico.aspx It's effectively bridged, too, so good to 100W...

I have a early Buffalo DAC kit from them, with a few accessory boards, (optical SPDIF, volume control) and like what these guys do. I guess one of the DAC kits with volume control and the Sympatico amp could qualify as a digital only integrated amp.

They also have a pretty high end 128 step Log attenuator, here which can be built up as single end or balanced volume control/passive preamp. Altogether, a Sympatico and a balanced Joshua Tree are getting a bit pricey, but still probably cheaper than a commercial equivalent.

[cjd]

It's just a power amp still, and you specifically asked for an integrated amp. :P I *did* mention DIY as an option.

Because the chip is bridged, it will be less ideally suited to a 4ohm load, though still should be up to the task (rail voltage will dictate just how much an issue this may or may not be.)

C