The Garnacha

[cjd]

A new 3-way that will play along with the rest of the family, with a little smaller footprint. 42"x15"x7.5" running 2xRS180-8, 1xRS150-8, 1xRS28F-4 (or RS28A-4)

I expect good things since this shaped up so very close to the In-Khan and there's something that just worked on that design.

Modeled response and impedance:

[TacoD]

Is this with the new RS series?

[cjd]

Is this with the new RS series?

Yes. I used these drivers in my existing systems to test out how closely they match, before embarking on this new design.

The results in the MTM's and the WWMTM are excellent - they truly seem to be drop-in.

I neglected to adjust inductor impedance correctly for the graph posted - it's just flatter now.

[cjd]

Stained today (these are getting finished! I know... seriously!) so I can toss a couple coats of poly on tomorrow while it's warm (mid 40's)

[Undefinition]

Stained today (these are getting finished! I know... seriously!) so I can toss a couple coats of poly on tomorrow while it's warm (mid 40's)

Yeah, what's the deal? I've never seen you work this fast. I look forward to some pics. These should be some really nice-looking speakers, given the dimensions and driver choices.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

I'm surprised that the minimum impedance is so high with two RS180's in parallel(I assume). You got it up to about 3.7-3.8ohms according to your graph. My ZDT3.5's with a similar setup have a low of about 3.2ohms. Looking forward to seeing the crossover.

[---k---]

Yeah, what's the deal? I've never seen you work this fast. I look forward to some pics. These should be some really nice-looking speakers, given the dimensions and driver choices.

Ditto!

Where are these speakers headed?

[fjhuerta]

I have a question... does anyone else feel the RS150 is too harsh as a midrange? I used it once and thought it sounded similar to the RS180 - I wouldn't use it again. It's possibly personal preference, though.

[parodielin]

RS150 Drop-in?

I used the new RS150 with the RS28F crossover designed for the shielded RS150. I need to pad down the tweeter resistor for at least 2 ohm and I don't think it sounded right yet. My "untrained" conclusion is that the crossover probably works but the tweeter level needs to be adjusted. The original tweeter resistor was too bright until it is padded down.

Any similar finding?

[bigbardmusiq]

Fallen in love with dayton speakers, can't wait to see what your cooking up!! subscribe<<

[Undefinition]

I have a question... does anyone else feel the RS150 is too harsh as a midrange? I used it once and thought it sounded similar to the RS180 - I wouldn't use it again. It's possibly personal preference, though.

I like the RS150 as a midrange quite a bit, personally. But it has to be handled ever-so-carefully in the crossover, or it sounds pretty obnoxious. The RS180 needs even more finesse, in my experience. They can perform great, but there are certainly much easier drivers to work with out there. (In my opinion, anyway)

[cjd]

I like the RS150 as a midrange quite a bit, personally. But it has to be handled ever-so-carefully in the crossover, or it sounds pretty obnoxious. The RS180 needs even more finesse, in my experience. They can perform great, but there are certainly much easier drivers to work with out there. (In my opinion, anyway)

Agree. The RS150 is a bit less laid back than the RS180 when used as a mid, though I'll have some time to do more detailed side-by-side listening/comparisons if I feel up to it during the mad holiday season. They give nothing up, but the break-up takes care to get cleared out adequately.

These are a gift... they're going to the same home as the third original MTM went. So I need to get them done.

C

[JonP]

Nice!!

Lighting makes it hard to tell, is that a color, or another black tinted BB box like that pic of your MTM's?

[mackintire]

What I 'm wondering is how these will compare to Jed's dynamic 2Ts and what is the upgrade cost over the In-Khan-Neato?

[cjd]

2C? I must be blind as I don't see that design. No idea on comparison, but both similar and different I would guess.

Crossover is similar cost to the in-khan design but two 8ohm vs one 4ohm RS-180.

[HareBrained]

Horizontal grain on the front?!?! You're right, you are working quickly...

[Jed]

I think they look real nice.

[cjd]

Horizontal grain on the front?!?! You're right, you are working quickly...

Intentional. A design decision, not a "not paying attention" thing.

[---k---]

Intentional. A design decision, not a "not paying attention" thing.

There you go using that degree in fine arts again! :P

[cbark]

I think they nice also, could have gone a little thinner though, you still have about a 64th of an inch left. :P

[cjd]

So, with them in VERY close proximity they seem to be sounding pretty good.

One of the RS150's had something odd going on needed to be massaged a tad and some compressed air blown in around the phase plug and it *seems* to have cleared up.

Need some more time playing, and in a better room.

[Txgrizzly]

CJD,
do you have anymore pics with the drivers installed? what F3 did you achieve with them? are they ported?

[Solid7]

Did you stop the radiused edge at the woofer because you realized that you ran out of meat, or is this part of the design aesthetic?

It is an interesting design. I think it will be popular, if for no other reason, just because it is a multi-driver design with a small footprint.

And by the way - I love the horizontal grain. "Going against the grain" has always been a passion of mine.

[JeremyG]

I'm very interested in this design, too. It looks like the same footprint as my Paradigm Monitor 7's, which means the WAF is neutral. I'm sure the sound plays right into MY acceptance factor. Do you think 125 watts (Emotiva UPA-2) would be adequate for this design? Thanks CJD!!!

Jeremy

[cjd]

F3 in-room is probably low 30's, maybe a bit lower. I have to go through the tuning data again, been a bit since I put the port length down without the tuning frequency.

Since I wanted a 7.5" width, it is not possible to radius the edge by the RS180's. That meant either a partial radius, or none at all, and partial is still worth it, so that's what I did. I also felt it did nice things design-wise.

I'm using one of the (very) cheap Lenai amps to break these in and was pushing peaks around 95dB at about 2M - a UPA-2 should be fine. I tend to listen in the mid 70dB-80dB range, so... don't even need that much.

I'll get more pics soon.

C

[cjd]

Time for a drink...

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Nice! Looks petite next to the MTMWW. Should make someone very happy as this is an Xmas gift right? Nice form factor.

[Jonasz]

CJD, did you use the RS28F or A in this design? If F, can you give a short comparison to the A?

The speakers are really good looking btw!

[tktran]

Nice design.
I love super slim designs. Especially 3 ways.

Have you got super slim RS225 version planned?

[cjd]

CJD, did you use the RS28F or A in this design? If F, can you give a short comparison to the A?

This is the "F" - it sounds very similar to the A - clearly they can be swapped around if you're not finding the slight rising response in the "F" problematic. Use of the F vs the A would also make any "in-room" designs have a built-in compensation for use behind a Seymour AV screen.

Nice design.
I love super slim designs. Especially 3 ways.

Have you got super slim RS225 version planned?

No super slim RS225 variations planned, no.

[Silversmoky]

Very Sharp CJD! I love the look of slim towers.

[Jim Holtz]

This is the "F" - it sounds very similar to the A - clearly they can be swapped around if you're not finding the slight rising response in the "F" problematic. Use of the F vs the A would also make any "in-room" designs have a built-in compensation for use behind a Seymour AV screen.



No super slim RS225 variations planned, no.

Hi Chris,

Very nice design! It should be a speaker that performs extremely well and fits just about anywhere.

FWIW, I've not been a RS28A fan but I really like the RS28F and am using it in the next design Curt and I have in the works. It's a superb tweeter, IMHO.

If I wasn't so busy/lazy it would have been completed for last falls Iowa DIY event. Next year...

Nice job!

Jim

[Bent]

I'm intrigued - how tall is that design, and what is the tweeter height?
(I'm aware height can be accommodated with either a stand, or plugging the base).

Sigh, I see the dimensions are indicted in the first thread... sorry for my inattentiveness.


subscribed.

[cjd]

Listening impressions:

Bass response is solid. These are full BSC (perhaps a mistake... sigh.) It is clear that I tend toward more QWP alignments in that the tuning is not evident on a walking bass-line. It just disappears into "out of range" once it's gone. RS drivers take a helluva beating though, so you can push these silly with adequate power behind them. Definitely very strident, not for those that really really like their BBC dip.

Mid enclosure walls lined with a chunk of loose fiberglass (needed). Woofer box is lined-walls and fiberglass above the port (there's a brace there that keeps it from falling, so little hands can play in the 3" port and not have glass issues...) - I'll see about getting a more formal box drawing together.







C

[Bent]

Since I am more interested than I've ever been, I started looking into the crossover design a tad more - namely the tweeter cct for starters.

I'm trying to calculate your intended crossover frequency for the tweeter, and after plugging the numbers into some robot calculators, I am more perplexed.

I know you guys here on HTG do some out-of-this-world stuff with crossovers to eek out the 9th degree of performance from your selected drivers, but I'm missing something here.

I arbitrarily plugged 4 ohms as the impedance of the tweeter, and 2200 hz and surprisingly came up with a Ct1 value that was actually in the ballpark (12 dB/octave L-R slopes, IIRC), but my Lt1 value was almost 4 x off the mark...

I want to believe...
Obviously the values of Ct2 and Rt1 affect the impedance of the tweeter (and since there is a capacitor, it obviously affects it differently at different frequencies), any chance you could explain how?

My apologies, I realize that wasn't the intent of the thread.

[cjd]

How what?

To some degree, I have to admit that I'm not always quite sure. But that's how I got through calculus in school too, and I was one of the top students in a very talented group - there's a level of intuitive understanding, and then there's a level of dogged persistence to mess with stuff till it works. I probably understand just enough to get away with it, but not enough to teach someone else or explain it, which is really to say I don't understand nearly enough after all.

Reversing the mid produces nulls at ~600Hz and ~1900Hz, but that's not the whole picture. The net sensitivity is higher than the total mid contribution, with very smooth phase integration across the entire pass-band (woofer+tweeter as well as woofer+mid and mid+tweeter)

The tweeter circuit is fairly straight forward, all things considered. A plain series resistor has a different impact than a series/parallel (classic l-pad), and of course it will change that 4ohm value you used. Target is closer to 24dB than 12. I start with target slopes and crossover points, but then work things to get phase integration better, both on and off-axis (in a design like this it's harder off-axis with the tweeter - fully centered makes it simple, relatively speaking).

FWIW the exceedingly close phase tracking seems to be subtly audible in a way that has made me a little disappointed in some other designs I've done. Go figure.

[---k---]

Holy part count batman!

I thought after your big 3-ways you were moving towards simplier crossovers. What happened?

[Bent]

I'm more of the "dogged persistence will always lead to the intuitive understanding" sort of person - in my job as well.

I wasn't picking holes, in case that was the impression I gave.
I'm going to do some more reading,
I'm going to see what my Paradigm V2 Mini-Monitors and CC-350's are worth on the used market,
I'm going to await a B.O.M., see what Solen here In Canada has for equivalent equipment, and get started on a set of cabs for this one.

[cjd]

What? Parts count? This is light. I've found that trying to skimp ends up letting some of the break-up through, and that leads to ear fatigue. Just not worth it in the end.

Bent, I'll see if I can put together a rough baffle layout and BOM soon. I sourced inductors from Madisound which uses Solen so that should be pretty straight forward. The big one is a 14ga... the diagram should have everything you need to pull together a BOM - I paired two 12.5ohm for the series mid resistor. I didn't think you were picking holes, just wasn't sure what you were actually asking about.

[---k---]

What? Parts count? This is light. I've found that trying to skimp ends up letting some of the break-up through, and that leads to ear fatigue. Just not worth it in the end.

I know. The results speak for themselves. Just had to poke you a little.

[mackintire]

Holy part count batman!

I thought after your big 3-ways you were moving towards simplier crossovers. What happened?

He's been hanging out with Jon again, so his idea of simple has moved upwards.

[Txgrizzly]

Time for a drink...

CJD
Very nice, thanks for the pic with the drivers. i have the mid and tweet for this design on some speakers that i am looking to replace so all i would have to buy would be the woofs and cross over parts... might be a done deal :T

[Bent]

The baffle with the grain width-wise, is that to ensure dimensional stability through the height dimension?

The local lumberyard has some long lengths of 7.5" by 3/4" thick oak.
With the grain running length-wise, would it be ok to use it that way" (I have some concernes as to whether it wouldn't try to go bananas (the shape, not the behavior) on me.

[Hank]

Bent, I'd not use a big piece of hardwood for the baffle or any other panel of this tower speaker. Too many internal stresses and susceptability to moisture ingress/egress. Some folks use the layered Baltic Birch. I stick with good old 10-mil paper-backed veneer. Just my 1 1/2 cents.

[Bent]

good advice Hank,
I was thinking in terms of quick construction, but if I do it quickly, and it cracks/warps then it doesn't save any time at all, does it?

I'll use plain old mdf for the first run, and if I like the performance, I'll do something more exotic as a second run.

out of curiosity, which direction would it be more stable w.r.t expansion, with the grain, or across it?