Remember the Arvo Pärt project?

[ThomasW]

Well, it's being brought back from a near-death experience. There are some changes with the newest version. :clap:

1)Different tweeter, oh so cool, and oh so expensive, ScanSpeak 9800 alu dome instead of the Vifa XT25 8)



2)Different woofers, a pair of Adire DPL 12"s instead of the 10" Titanic MKII's



3)Instead of Jon's one piece design, the new version will utilize a bottom (woofer) module and a separate top (MTM) module. This will allow quick module updates and save my back when moving the speakers around.

I'd like to post some cool CAD graphics of the intended design, but creating those would take me longer than building the actual cabinets.

So stay tuned, next week there will be some pictures of the real thing.... :T




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Pat]

Thomas, you must have finished up all your other projects, since you seem to be starting a few more 8)

How's the knee?




Pat's Page

[JonMarsh]

The "orignal" version will be completed also, but with the different tweeters... :banana:

Slow work takes time....


~Jon




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[ThomasW]

Hi Pat!

Other projects not completed, but yeap knee is better, not longer feel that it's going to collapse when I walk down the basement steps.

Jon's going to fly out here for a week the second week of January. My goal is to have some prototypes ready for testing and XO design development while he's here.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[sfdoddsy]

Looking forward to seeing the new Arvos. I split mine into two parts for similar reasons, although I usually have the MTM panel sitting over the bass module for space and aesthetic reasons.



Steve




Steve's DIY Dipoles

[Pat]

Glad to hear your getting around better :T

3 weeks to get those prototypes ready 8O




Pat's Page

[JonMarsh]

Ola' from Sunny Denver.





Slow work takes time.... :coffee:

But the work is proceeding... looks promising. This is the predicted result from measurements, for the current all passive crossover design. These measurements are with Titanic Mk11 10" (really 11"), but DPL 12's are expected to have raw measurements which are essentially similar, due to the influence of the U baffle.

~Jon




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[Hank]

Hmmm...mighty flat line there.

[ThomasW]

This is a tease, this is just a tease, please do not adjust your set.......

The interesting thing about that plot Hank, is that unlike all the Linkwitz designs, Jon's design isn't using active EQ and is using all passive crossovers.! 8O

Now on to actually building the thing to see if the LspCAD predictions are correct..




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

...must wind more inductors.... :rx


~Jon




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[Hank]

The all passive wasn't lost on me. Might Mr. Cauer be involved?
I wish you Poohbah's had been at C.E.S. I think you boys would have been impressed by Adire's upcoming 6.5" (I'm talking ULTISSIMO line source mid-woof as well as...) and 4", both using xbl^2 technology.
Anyway, go forth and build! Your public wants actual speaker performance graphs and listening notes.

[JonMarsh]

Mr. Cauer lent his usual assistance in the midwoofer to tweeter crossover, as with the M8's. We've also dummied up a design for the DPL 12's with active woofer to midwoofer crossover, and passive top, which Thomas will probably use, especially since the DPL12's aren't quite as sensitive, and there's something of a significant back order situation on the 10" MK11's. :cry: This is a problem, as I need another pair!

Finished winding all the inductors for a complete passive crossover set, so Thomas can set his up that way in the future; with a couple of switches, it can be converted between modes. Maybe some pics tomorrow.

~Jon




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[JonMarsh]

ThomasW has kept me locked away in the basement and family room, working my fingers to the nubbin (as John Lennon would say, were he with us, "I've got blisters on my fingers!"). Actually, in this dry Colorado weather, it's just cracks.



As I write I'm listening to Norah Jones on ThomasW's proto's- we cobbled up a setup with a hybrid crossover (in order to work with Tom's choice of DPL12's, also PE Titanic MkII are back ordered), part of the passive design, with some elements bypassed, and an active Marchand crossover at 175 Hz.

With all levels set to nominal when we first powered it up, the balance was surprisingly good with Jennifer Warnes, "The Hunter" (XRCD version). No time this afternoon for test equipment, just a quick dial in by ear before we went out to dinner.



But this obviously has a lot of potential, and is surprisingly close for not even being the actual LspCAD design (different woofers, seat of the pants crossover mods). Very nice sound from midbass through highs; a real see through characteristics to the backing vocals and lesser instruments layered up on the Jennifer Warnes disk. The system does the usual dipole thing of ignoring much of the room signature, and sounding more like big headphones than a speaker in a room.

The Scanspeak tweeter seems to be a very good choice; very clear and clean, even with the relatively non-high end gear we've got hooked up. (Liteon LVD2001 DVD player, old Sony preamp, Aragon BB's).

Bass and midrange definition are also very good, but it seems to me that with the DPL12's there's even a little less low bass than my sweeps and earlier tests with the Titanic MKII; (different raw driver characteristics) but then, I picked the Titanic's for some specific characteristics.

I suspected that some EQ in line with the LF feed to the DPL 12's (maybe about 6 dB at 40 Hz?) would fill out things on the bottom. I've got a design for a little active class A NFB box with balanced differential inputs and outputs (plus single ended) that I'm going to use for mine; last night we slipped ThomasW's Behringer in the LF amp circuit, and at 6 dB of boost at 40 Hz with 100/60 bandwidth, it did the trick nicely, even for Laurie Anderson. Jacque Loussier "Play Bach" was pretty amazing; some of the best drum, standup bass, and piano reproduction I've heard. Undoubtedly a lot must be credited to the dipole speaker freedom from room signature.

Unfortunately, I'm heading off for another cross country business extravaganza next week, so fine tuning the system is a little ways off. My daughter Elaine and I head back to California late tomorrow morning- have to say the weather has been great out here for this time of day.

One of the surprising things was how good the Liteon sounded; though it's a bit glitchy in operation occasionally, the playback quality may be one of the best under $500 players I've heard.

Best regards,




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[Pat]

Very cool guys!




Pat's Page

[Andrew Pratt]

Jon I'll probably kick myself for asking but given I own four M8a's, two XT25's and four tempests and a BFD what would it take for me to build a pair of these part's? XO mod's? Also how would you classify their sound in comparison to the M8a's...keeping in mind I'd be using tempest woofs and the XT tweeter?

Also why did you face both DLP12's forward and not reverse one to cancel movement forces?

[JonMarsh]

Hello Andrew,

The driver configuration I selected, with the specific baffle, was designed to work together as well as possible in matching efficiency and frequency response before the use of any crossover; so that a passive crossover was feasible. The DPL12's are not quite the right efficiency and FR for my original design, and Tempests or Shiva's would be even less close, though with an electronic crossover and multiple power amps as we're using for Thomas, plus some external EQ, could probably be made to work.

Note that when you mount the drivers with one set facing forward and the other backwards, the voice coils are wired out of phase, and the cones move in phase- there is NO cancellation of movement forces in this configuration, only cancellation of even order distortion, which is not really that large in proportion to 3rd and 5th order distortion in the selected drivers.

Only the W frame cabinets with LF drivers facing each other has any cancellation of cone movement forces, and this cabinet configuration introduces other problems with the response above 125 Hz (resonances due to cavity) which are unacceptable for this design; note that Linkwitz himself does NOT use that configuration in the Orion design, only in dipole subwoofer cabinets intended to be used only below 100 Hz.

Thomas should probably comment on the differences in the sound; I only had an evening and part of the next day to listen. However, the biggest difference is that the dipole rejects most of the room sound, and is actually a bit more forgiving of placement than a box or tower type speaker, and it has a more coherent sound due to the lowered comb filtering from side wall, floor, and ceiling reflections. This allows you to hear more into the recording, including better imaging, than with a box speaker in most rooms, unless the room is carefully treated and setup.

Plus, the bass/midbasds region has the sort of openness and ease that you get in the very low end with a good IB sub.

We selected the SS9800 because it's quite compatible electrically with the Vifa XT25 (Vifa and SS are both part of DST) with regards to impedance curve and basic frequency response (to below 1 kHz) and efficiency, but also because it's one of the lowest distortion tweeters on the market, being quite comparable to the SS2905 and Seas Excel tweeters. It's one of the most neutral tweeters I've heard, and though not as efficient as the Td120dx2 Focal, it is happier playing lower.

Best regards from Seattle,

Jon




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[ThomasW]

Andrew,

You would need to make totally new XO's. You can't simply modify your existing ones. Note that the Arvo XO is MUCH MUCH more complex, complicated, and expensive as compared to the M8aMKIV. I'll upload some XO pics over the weekend.

The Arvo images somewhat like a planar, but has slightly better overall focus. The bass as Jon said, is detailed/defined like that from an IB.

Since we've yet to actually dial in the performance with test gear; I'll just say that the overall performance is quite good. but not yet world class. When we are able to do the final tweaking and adjustments, I expect exceptional performance ...




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Thomas is right, in my late night fatigue I didn't notice, Andrew, that you seemed to be interested in modifying/rebuilding your M8's into this configuration. The tweeter crossover is close to the same, but the midwoofers are wired in series, as are the LF woofers, and with the network response required the midwoofer crossover is MUCH different (as in totally) from the M8. Also, the LF crossover has got a couple of real honking inductors if you do it passive. Active, you have to do some adjustments with an equalizer to pull it all together.

Regards,

Jon




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[Andrew Pratt]

what is the XO point for the sub part? I have quite a lot of flexibility with the Rotel 1098 pre amp on the LFE XO so i could always use that for the lower base bin if need be. I'm very happy with my M8a's so this is more out of boredom/curiosity then any real desire to upgrade...still I love projects

[ThomasW]

what is the XO point for the sub part?

Andrew,

It's not a sub, the Arvos are a fullrange speaker. So the bottom pair of drivers are being used as woofers, not subwoofers. Also the Rotel XO won't work, since the Arvo XO is a special design to compensate for the effects of the dipole mounting of the drivers. Our use of the Marchand is just a 'bandaid' to get the project up and running.

I realize that this is a departure from our normal 2-way (with sub) designs. The goal with the Avro was to have a fullrange speaker (passive XO) that would run off a single amp. The reason my prototypes are running with an active XO on the woofers is that PE is out of stock on the 10" Titanic MKII's. That meant the only woofers we had readily available were from the stash of DPL12"s I bought during the Adire preproduction offer. When PE gets 10" Titanics back in stock I will build a 'finished' version of Arvo using those woofers.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

As Thomas implies, the crossover is very specific to the Arvo as a full range speaker due to the acoustical effects from dipole mounting. These are several, dependent on the driver and baffle design, and go beyond a simple 6 dB/octave roll off due to bass cancellation.

The LF drivers were chosen for it's voice coil inductance, efficiency, and response profile, which is further modified by the short U frame baffle it's used in. In combination, this results in fairly flat response on the low woofer from 100 Hz to 225 Hz, with a strong acoustical roll off above 250 Hz. The LF crossover is not a simple "X dB/octave, but incorporates some staggered poles and zeros to minize the LF output out of band, while managing the transistion band response. As you can see from the summed frequency response plot, the main LF crossover is at ~ 225 Hz in the full passive design with the Titanic MkII.






The M8a woofers are wired in series, with an elliptic filter on the top as previously, but have a somewhat complex high pass crossover so that in combination with the panel/driver acoustic response, the net result is a 4th order LF HP filter. This includes compensation for the rear basket to front interaction that results in the classic lower mid peak, which has to be compensated with a notch filter in the active implmentations such as SL has developed.

The raw characteristics can be seen in this plot, which is the combined output of the LF driver and mid woofers WITHOUT any crossover, and with very long sampling time and hence, some room reflections causing ripples in the measured frequency response.



The midwoofer has a response bump between roughly 250 Hz and 600 Hz which has to be accounted for; this is a "best case" scenario, because the baffle, panel, driver, and crossover have been chosen so that this response bump is located where it can be compensated out by shaping the HP network portion of the M8a crossover. Obviously, nothing comparable exists in the two way box system.

Again, contrast that "raw" measurement with the results with drivers and passive crossover shown above it. Though the network is pretty "beefy" by two way box standards, it's really not that bad to build (compared even with the 8" MTM three way "Modula" system I did in the early nineties using MB dome mids and tweeters, with Scanspeak woofers).

The only active equalization needed on the complete design is a shelving or broad band boost at ~ 40 Hz, of around 6 dB. Then I'd recommend crossing in a monopole sub such as an IB below 40 -50 Hz.

I'm debating whether to make this another AudioXpress project or not; when we get a little more done, I'll probably contact Ed Dell and see if he's interested. The wood working in it's present form is pretty simple;
we just may do some additional studies to see if there's any significant benefit from a more complex baffle design.

Best regards,

Jon




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[Al Garay]

Have you seen that Acoustic Visions has the Titanic MKII's in stock:
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/parts_titanic_10_mkii/

What about using the 12" MKII's instead?

Al

[JonMarsh]

Interesting; I didn't realize they carried these drivers, too!

Howver, the pricing isn't quite as attractive, as we have a wholesale account at PE.

The 10" (which is actually an 11") was selected becuase it enabled a somewhat narrower baffle width and smaller overall baffle( note the difference in size between the DPL prototypes and my original, and I was going for "small footprint"); and because of it's inductance/FR response (~ 6 dB/octave roll off above 75 Hz). The ten also has a cleaner top end, and a higher first breakup mode. Hence, reasonable performance to 200 Hz, with allowance for the crossover roll off above that; it could be a bit of a struggle with the 12, requiring a lower crossover. With some effort, I'm sure it could be doable, but probably requiring an active approach (the coils grow quite a bit between a 225 Hz crossover and a 150 Hz crossover, for example! :LOL: )




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[JonMarsh]

There have been some inquiries about just how complicated the passive crossovers are, considering the design of Linkwitz's crossovers for the Orion- which in active format require quite a few OpAmps...

Here's a pic of the parts required to build a stereo pair....




and from the other side of the table...




Not really all that bad; and no worries about digititus in a DSP based crossover, or dynamic range limitations in D/A converters with 25 dB or more boost/cut on come outputs...

Now, it's an open question as to wheter there are more side effects from multiple OpAmps in the signal path, or from a big passive network. I'm sure you'll get pro's and cons both ways. But this way is a lot simpler to integrate into a conventional system. Even Charles Hansen doesn't think a commercial bi or tri-amplified diople speaker is feasible, and is trying to develope a passive crossover version- or at least wants to. He wants a single woofer driver, and hasn't found anything suitable so far, with the efficiency, Xmax, and midrange to cut the mustard.

Best regards,

Jon




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[PMazz]

Damn Jon!!!!

I hope you don't attempt to get on a plane with all those. I can see you now....."But officer, I swear.....they're for my speakers!"

You weren't kidding about some xover work to do it passively. WOW!

Pete

[ThomasW]

Pete,

The big cluster caps are my way of saving money, and creating a high quality cap at the same time.

One can buy 10mfd GE caps at Madisound for $.90ea in 100pc lots. Creating high value caps using clusters of the GE caps, results in a cost savings of some 50% over buying large value Solen caps. The drawbacks are having to assemble the clusters, then dealing with the size of the resulting XO boards.

I'll shoot some pics of the assembled XO boards and upload them later today.......




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Those were just for Tom's crossovers...

Didn't try to smuggle Arvo crossovers out of Colorado!


I've got some of the parts for mine, but have to get some more together- I'm debating the GE route (I've got a few of those, too), or the Solen route (also a few, mostly purchased for the M8t&a. :banana:

Probably going to order the big inductors from North Creek...

Now I'm pondering how I'm going to put the final version of the base together, so I can get a little more height on the speaker overall, but match it esthetically to the original design. I gotta feeling it's gonna involve solid oak in some form. :righton:

~Jon




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[sfdoddsy]

Yikes!

Now I know why I plumped for an active crossover.






Steve's DIY Dipoles

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I suppose the passive route looks a little intimidating when you lay out the parts like that, but then I really wanted something I could hook up to a single power amp and have fun with. I've done systems with three and four way active, and they're a little cumbersome in their own way.

This will have a signal processing box in line between preamp and power amp, to provide the LF EQ below 75-80 Hz (only down to 40 Hz or so with this one), and probably a balance tilt control. The latter will be included because of the discrepency between many good jazz and classical recordings, verus close miked rock and roll. The latter, on a flat system, are usually too bright, and could benefit (and in fact are mastered) assuming a slight system down tilt above about 2 kHz, so that will probably be enabled via passive Eq in the OTA stage also. Details to be worked out.

So, some might say this isn't "pure passive", but then no filter dividing networks will be active, and it will play OK with pretty flat balance to 75 Hz without any EQ at all. That's close enough in my book.

Gotta have something to do with my Palladiums, even if I have enough of them now to do a biamp stereo setup. I think I'd rather build another set of Arvo's and use one pair for the "rears".

Best regards,

Jon




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[ThomasW]

One thing Linkwitz doesn't address is panel resonances. This is something Jon and I noticed with my prototypes. They vibrate, and they vibrate much more than I expected.

A while back I stumbled on Steve Houlihan's dipole speaker website Steve has a webpage dedicated to trial and error testing of damping methods to control the vibrations of his baffles.

As Jon and I progress with our Arvo projects, we'll work on this resonance issue.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

The resonance shows up as blips/glitches in the LF driver impedance curves. We didn't measure Tom's working proto's, but my personal Arvo's are pretty low, compared with some of the curves Steve shows. But my personal Arvo's are laminated up panels with 1/4" HDF, solid oak side bars, and U frames also made with 1" thick laminated 1/4" HDF. Maybe that makes a difference; plus, the panels are a little shorter overall. My Arvo proto feels stiffer than Tom's made with 3/4" MDF.

Of course, there's always the exotic materials department which we could let loose on this problem....

Thomas has found some aircraft aluminum in 1" thick sheets; of course, I'm the fanboy for phenolic sheet... but I guess we'll probably have to see how well we can do with more mundane materials....




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[ThomasW]

My Arvo proto feels stiffer than Tom's made with 3/4" MDF.

Hey! I think we're getting just a little TOO personal here.......... :B




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Hey! Are you admonishing me?!?

admonish:

VERB: 1. To criticize for a fault or an offense: call down, castigate, chastise, chide, dress down, rap1, rebuke, reprimand, reproach, reprove, scold, tax, upbraid. Informal : bawl out, lambaste. Slang : chew out. Idioms: bring (or call) (or take) to task, call on the carpet, haul (or rake) over the coals, let someone have it.


We'll just rename your implementation of the Arvo Part the "Flexible Flyer"




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[ThomasW]

Hey write you own material don't plagerize others :a>'>




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Dennis H]

Actually, SL does address panel resonances. Lots of double thickness areas in the bass bin. Deep side rails to stiffen where the mid panel meets the bass bin - 4-6" at the joint tapering to 2" at the top. A sorta constrained layer construction of the mid panel - 3/4" + 1/4" with flexible glue between and glue block stiffeners on the back side.

That said, I haven't seen an Orion up close and personal so I can't say how well it all works.

[ThomasW]

Dennis,

Oops, I didn't properly phrase my statement. :cry:

I expected SL to be as exacting in his examination of potential panel/cab resonances, as he is with other aspects of the design. Now perhaps he has done this, it wasn't an issue, so he chose not to discuss it. Or perhaps he discusses it in the plans, I don't have access to them. I only have the website info. I saw the front panel reference in his text and the bracing in the photo's.

For the Arvo design we'll measure, diagnose, and cure, any issues with panel/cab resonances. That info will be detailed in this thread and on our website.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[ThomasW]

Just finished my first extended solo audition of the prototypes.

It's interesting; in any design where we've used the M8a woofers, I've heard details that were new to my ears, in recordings I thought I had memorized. The Arvos are no exception.

So ................

I LOVE THESE SPEAKERS!

No, they aren't in the same league as my big hybrid planar array. But they are delightful. Detailed, but relaxed. No slam, not for metal heads. Just beautifully clear, articulate, airy, and musical.

Since the system is currently powered by my lowest performing electronics, I can't wait until it's time to fire up the high end gear.......Hey is that the sound of rapture????????

Suppose it's the new tweeter?

Next step; build a 4 driver dipole sub to augment the bottom end..... Then buckle your seat belts, put your tray tables in their upright and locked position. Prepare for lift-off cause we're gonna .......
arty:




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

I think they're growing on Thomas.... 8)

Which is a good sign. I think the tweeter plays a signficant role, but also probably the dipole behavior up to 1.25 kHz. And reasonably low distortion, too, not just from the tweeter, but also the midwoofer array, which running down to only about 200Hz is pretty "relaxed", and the moderately long throw woofer array.

I'm looking forward to Thomas getting the parts sent out to me, and getting my own crossovers built. Maybe/hopefully I'll start the tweeter networks this weekend with parts I have on hand.

ThomasW should be receiving a rather heavy box today, via UPS.... something to hook up to the Arvo Part's! Let's see if the party quotient goes up any!

;b>'> arty: :clap:

Thomas, can you toss a couple of the LPADs for testing into the box, too?


Time to go get some breakfast! :eating: :coffee:


~Jon




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[ThomasW]

Arvos + Ayre Power = Bliss.........!

Many thanks Jon, :T




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Cool!


:amen:


Not too surprising. Are you running a V5 on top and an Argon on the bottom? That combination should work quite well.... :-y

~Jon :yeah:




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[Davey]

SL mentions panel vibration/resonances concerns a few times on his website so I'm confident he's investigated this. I believe he feels these are not of major concern because as a result of the layout the radiation from the panels themselves is also dipolar in nature. Kind of a self-cancelling-radiation....SCR. I just made up an acronym.

Anyway, I haven't tried this but I suppose if you taped an accelerometer mid-panel you'd see some activity, but if you then attached one on the opposite side of the panel and summed their outputs you wouldn't see much.

As SL is inclined to mention all the time...."Dipoles are a whole different ball game."

Jon/Thomas. The Arvo project is very cool!

Cheers,

Davey.

[ThomasW]

Kind of a self-cancelling-radiation....SCR. I just made up an acronym.

Were that the case it would be great. Unfortunately when the panels themselves are acting as 'transducers', the front and rear waves radiating from the panels, are interferring with the sound coming from the drivers. This is true regardless of whether or not the speaker is a dipole.

Now my quick and dirty prototypes define the term 'flexible flyers'. When Jon gets his properly built baffles operational, we'll take some measurements and see what's really going on.

Jon/Thomas. The Arvo project is very cool!

Thanks. We're have a couple more surprises up our sleeves for these speakers, so stay tuned.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Davey]

Thomas,

I understand, but relatively speaking how big a problem is this? I mean how much panel damping is enough?

Cheers,

Davey.

[ThomasW]

Davey

We'll know the answer to that after we've measured the resonances of Jon's baffles. His have much more robust construction as compared to my 'flexible flier prototypes'




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Other's who have "fought" panel resonance find that it's observable on the impedance curve, and that it makes some notes or ranges of the bass thicker or more forward than it should be.

Compared with ThomasW's baffles, mine are slightly smaller, laminated up and are thicker, and use solid oak as both "decorative" end pieces but also part of the panel bracing.

The "observed" glitches on the impedance curve in the range between 50 Hz and 200Hz are quite low. We didn't characterize Tom's panels that way, but it would be the logical thing to do.

Thanks. We're have a couple more surprises up our sleeves for these speakers, so stay tuned.

Gosh darn, Thomas, you aren't trying to give hints about the "Arvo Ultra" already, are you? :gossip: :naughty:

That's a problem when we haven't fully completed the orignal design and we're already thinking about upgrades- better not leak any more!

:smackbutt:

~Jon




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