Subwoofer to Compliment Statement Monitors

[AVDweeb]

Hi All,

I'm going to be placing a subwoofer in to my audio room. The room may change in the future so I'd like to prepare for something larger in the future (plus, I can always turn the volume down, right?). This might be more information then needed, but I'd rather include it then not. Here's the current setup:

Source: Logitech SqueezeBox Touch
DAC: PS Audio DLIII (w/ Stage 4 Cullen modification)
Amplifier: Cambridge Audio 840A V2
Speakers: Statement Monitors
Room Information: 11' Width x 12' Depth x 11' Height (Go square room )
Sound Treatment: Auralex D108 Kit (Provides about 30% coverage).

I've been given the go ahead to purchase a subwoofer to compliment the system, providing it has a decent WAF factor and costs less then $350. I'm leaning towards not building it myself as I currently have a speaker project already in progress. Here's what I'm currently considering:

$350 Elemental Design A2 - 250 10"

http://tinyurl.com/24blncg

$349.00 HTD Level Two Powered 10"

http://tinyurl.com/24ouczv

$299 Cadence Home Audio CSX-12

http://tinyurl.com/29fsmfu

$319 HSU STF-2

http://tinyurl.com/9w7s8k

$338 - Lava LSP12

http://tinyurl.com/2697qep

Alternatively, I have been eying the HiVi SP10 Paul during his Swope HT build and I could be swayed to head in that direction.

Swope HT HiVi SP10 Sub: http://tinyurl.com/2abc7a5


As I'm getting lost in the depths of all of these choices, I'm looking to the professionals to give some insight. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


Additional Note: On the PE Techtalk Forum, Lunchmoney has suggested doing a partial DIY build. Please see this thread for more information:

PE Thread: http://tinyurl.com/29urjs6


Thank you!

Russ

[thatguyyoulove]

In my opinion the Dayton RS Subs from PE will kick the pants off any of those above. If you are somewhat handy then you can build the cabinet yourself and save some money, but the WAF will be dependent on your finishing skills more than likely. PE does have some very nice looking pre-finished sub cabinets.

If it was me personally I would do it myself. If you don't want to mess with veneer you could always build out of baltic birch plywood and stain it yourself. Probably the route I would go.

[mischmat]

If the HSU STF-2 is anything like my HSU VTF2-MK3 it does a very nice job. I have leaves on fake tree's that move with the bass output but can be subtle to the point you have to ask where the sub is placed.

[BOBinGA]

As a general rule, you simply can't put a 12" woofer in a 2 cu.ft. ported box and get 20 hz extension. A 12" in 2 cu.ft. box will put a nice peak in the response around 30 making it boom and sound like you have a lot of bass. It's not real deep bass, but it can sound deceptively good on first listen.

A 10" in a 2 cu.ft ported box will work well if properly tuned and get close to 20 hz without peaking at 30. It won't play as loud as a 12", but the difference is small and it will work well in a medium size room like yours. The only ones you have listed that meet this criteria are the Elemental Designs and the Hsu. If you are not going to build, look at one of those. The Elemental, at first glance, looks like the better of the two.

-Bob

[AVDweeb]

Thanks Bob, that was really helpful information. I really considering a 12" because I figured more air to move = more bass. I'm going to seriously consider the ED A2 - 250 unless I go the route of building a Dual RS270-8 system with an active and a passive. It's hard to pass up the $49 special at PE.

[mischmat]

I've thrown out test signal from 15hz to 100hz and VTF2-MK3 does a very good job of reproducing sound at respectable volumes. I was quite surprised. If you don't feel like the DIY I'd recommend it if it fit's your pocket book. It was a purchase before I got the itch to build. If I had to do it again it'd be a tough call to build a sub or buy one. Being in a small remote city I don't have options to listen, so I spent some time just researching and reading various reviews. In the end it's up to you.

[AVDweeb]

Do you have any information on how the VTF2-MK2 would perform in my room? There's one available in my area for $275. Would you consider this a solid buy or move towards one of the newer models?

Thanks,

RS

[impala454]

Just something to throw out there, I had really bad luck with ED's customer service. The car amp I bought from them gave out on me, and they wanted me to sign a contract and all kinds of BS saying they weren't even required to send me the amp back, after paying to ship it to them. I'll never shop with them again.

[AVDweeb]

Well the VTF2-2MK2 has been sold

Back to the drawing board. I'm currently deciding between purchasing a basic sub (like the basic Dayton prefab) so there's something in the room and going a bit beyond my budget for something that will satisfy my needs even in to future venues.

If I go basic I wouldn't consider it a bad investment nor a permeant fixture. I'd later replace it with a DIY and place the Dayton or what have you in a different environment.

Thoughts?

[BOBinGA]

Can you afford $500?

I built my own box, so I didn't spend that much, but you can duplicate what I built using the Dayton RSS265HF-4, a PE 2 cu.ft. assembled sub box and an O-Audio amp:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-460

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-810

http://www.oaudio.com/500W_SUBAMP.html

You will need make cut outs to install the woofer, amp and a 3" pvc port 30" long (it takes a couple of long elbows to squeeze it in the box). Without going into details, this is what you get at 125 watts crossed at 60 hz with a 4 db boost at 20 from the amp:



And it doesn't exceed X-Max above 15 hz (and it exceeds it only slightly below that):



The PE box is slightly oversized and nets out to about 1.95 cu.ft after accounting for the driver, amp and port. I highly recommend the O-Audio amp since all rooms have some room resonances. My room's primary resonance is at 30 hz with the sub stuffed in a corner and the parametric eq on the amp is the only easy way to counteract this. Also, the O Audio has a variable bass boost that is required in this design and that you can't find on retail subs.

And, yes, measured in room, it actually does reach 20 hz easily.

-Bob

[jayzBH]

Well the VTF2-2MK2 has been sold

Back to the drawing board. I'm currently deciding between purchasing a basic sub (like the basic Dayton prefab) so there's something in the room and going a bit beyond my budget for something that will satisfy my needs even in to future venues.

If I go basic I wouldn't consider it a bad investment nor a permeant fixture. I'd later replace it with a DIY and place the Dayton or what have you in a different environment.

Thoughts?

Hi AVDweeb,
Depending on your wood working skill my suggestion would be to build your own box. Chose a subwoofer and amp! You will be much happier with the outcome.

Will you be using the Cambridge Audio 840A V2 amplifier for the subwoofer? Offhand you could buy a plate amp on parts express 240 W for 139.98 on sale now materials $30 to $60 and for 12’s or 15’s say $100 to $200. That would be in your price range doing it yourself.

I would highly recommend building the wedge from Decware I have had great success with this design for HT They also have other projects you may be interested in.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/invertedwedge.htm

Look into a pair of tang-band W8 I have read great reviews. For an 8” subwoofer @28 Hz with 12mm Xmax that’s pretty amazing for an 8” sub! You could use two of these inside the box or 2 boxes in opposite ends of the room.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-854

This will give you a better idea of the ½ wedge box I have built.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BEraAzY6K0

Some things I like to take into consideration when building a subwoofer box:
1. How much do you want to sink into this project?
2. Do you have a Freq in mind (how low you want the sub to perform?) If you are looking for low Hz all subwoofer have different responds look at the specs.
3. What is your main use for the subwoofer all around performance, music, home theater etc?
4. And do you prefer ported, sealed or other?

You could find a subwoofer you like and in your price range BUT might not work out in your favor due to the Hz you want, certain box design or power if you find a subwoofer your interested in make sure your amp has enough power to run the subwoofer. I have had customers that had a beefy subwoofer and wanted me to build them a box but didn’t have the power to push it.

Subwoofer software it’s a good idea to use. I believe it’s free you could find other I am sure of.

http://www.ajdesigner.com/speaker/index.php

Well I hope some of this has helped out a bit it’s just my 2cents!
Any questions ill try to help.

Good Luck
JayzBH

[AVDweeb]

Hey All!

Thanks for the responses! I didn't get an instant notification or I would have been to this sooner! To answer a few questions:

BOBinGA - Yes. $500 is not out of the park at this point. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it once. And correctly. I like the idea of the 10" reference but I'd really like to keep it sealed (this discussion can live here as it was also brought up on PE).


jayzBH - I'll be using my 840A v2's preamp line outs to the sub's RCA in. As per all of the suggestions I've picked up, I'm going to go with the O-Audio 500W for sure (great to hear you agree BOBinGA). I'm also going to stick to a prefabricated box to ensure a high WAF. Here's the answers to your questions:

1. <$600.
2. I want to hit 20hz.
3. Music. All music.
4. Sealed is the way to go on this project.

I hope has provided enough information!

Thanks,

Russ

[AVDweeb]

Alright. I've ordered it!!

As per the previous post, here's what I purchased:

(1) O Audio 500W BASH Sub Amp ($237.60): http://tinyurl.com/2fbm6sh

(1) 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm ($138.24): http://tinyurl.com/284s5vn

(1) 2.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet Cherry ($179.65): http://tinyurl.com/36xz2og

I also picked up some polyfill and the a speaker mounting kit.

Total Cost: $573.63

There goes the budget, but I can't wait to get everything up and running!! I'll post pictures and results once everything's arrived.

Thanks again!

Russ

[dsrviola]

Darn, I'm too late. I much actually prefer the sound quality of the Dayton 10" to the 12". I'm running two of the 10" (in separate cabinets: they're about 12 x 12 x 22) in sealed boxes with a BASH 300 in each. And I'm running them in a smaller room than yours: my computer system is pretty small (about 8 x 11). Love them!

Good Luck to you!

[jayzBH]

Alright. I've ordered it!!

As per the previous post, here's what I purchased:

(1) O Audio 500W BASH Sub Amp ($237.60): http://tinyurl.com/2fbm6sh

(1) 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm ($138.24): http://tinyurl.com/284s5vn

(1) 2.0 ft³ Subwoofer Cabinet Cherry ($179.65): http://tinyurl.com/36xz2og

I also picked up some polyfill and the a speaker mounting kit.

Total Cost: $573.63

There goes the budget, but I can't wait to get everything up and running!! I'll post pictures and results once everything's arrived.

Thanks again!

Russ

Hi AVDweed,
Here is just some advice I want to share.

When you said you’re looking for 20Hz in a sealed 2 C.F box using the Dayton RSS315HF 12” I was unsure if this can be proven so I used my program “Bass-Box pro”

In a 2 C.F sealed you are looking @43Hz now if you decide to port the box you would be able gain a little closer to the 20Hz you want. By porting the box you would be looking @ 26 Hz slot ported L 12.5” W X10” XH X.75”or two round 3”x 5.80 L

The suggested total C.F @ 18Hz is 4.86 ported 10.5” W X10” XH X.75”.
I tried this subwoofer in different sealed applications 2 C.F up to 10 C.F and the response is no lower than 43Hz.

Bob posted:
“As a general rule, you simply can't put a 12" woofer in a 2 cu.ft. Ported box and get 20 Hz extension. A 12" in 2 cu.ft. box will put a nice peak in the response around 30 making it boom and sound like you have a lot of bass. It's not real deep bass, but it can sound deceptively good on first listen.

A 10" in a 2 cu.ft ported box will work well if properly tuned and get close to 20 hz without peaking at 30. It won't play as loud as a 12", but the difference is small and it will work well in a medium size room like yours. The only ones you have listed that meet this criteria are the Elemental Designs and the Hsu. If you are not going to build, look at one of those. The Elemental, at first glance, looks like the better of the two.”
-Bob

I totally agree with Bob! To achieve 20 Hz you would be better to port the box. In my past years when designing boxes I have learned the lower Hz the BIGGER the box you will be using, it all depends on the subwoofer and type of box.
So I thought I would throw that out to you all you can do go as planned try the box out see if you like if not send it back or port the box.

Good luck and keep me up dated on the outcome!
JayzBH

[evilskillit]

Actually that 12" in a 2 cu ft box, maybe with a bit of stuffing corner loaded into a smallish room will probably have an F3 of 20 or lower. If OP gets access to some measuring gear we'll find out. I know that in my room of similar proportions a sub that models somewhat similarly is way hot below about 40hz. Plus the amp he's using has parametric eq so if need be, he can boost the bottom end.