Got a spare $17K?

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  • sfdoddsy
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2000
    • 496

    Got a spare $17K?

    These speakers seem similar to what some of you guys are doing. It seems you've saved yourself $17K.




    Steve




    Steve's DIY Dipoles
    Steve's OB Journey
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10940

    #2
    Saw that link a few days ago on the DIY loudspeakers list.

    Quote from the mfgr's website

    Gilmore audio speakers are planar designs. All drivers are mounted in the same plane....
    ROTFLMAO..........

    And flat piston dynamic woofers are NOT planar drivers by any stretch of the imagination.

    the high-density, space age acrylic panel
    Yeap, that's how everyone describes CORIAN.




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Lex
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Apr 2001
      • 27461

      #3
      Well, that center channel at he bottom of the page had nice cones. :LOL:

      For those to slow to understand what I mean, there's a girl in the bottom picture or two. :td:

      Hmm, maybe I'd sell more cables if I put on my hawaian shirt and flip flops. hehe. Forget that, the chick would sell cables.

      Lex
      Doug
      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15336

        #4
        Who would buy a set of speakers from a guy with a shirt like that?

        Man, if I looked like that guy, the LAST thing I'd do is put my mug on the Internet!! :E

        But hey, the cheesecak isn't bad, even if it is a digital insertion- I'm pretty sure she's never stood anywhere near those speakers! :boobies:

        When I first looked at this page, I thought it was a joke page of some kind, but may be in his part of Montanna this is high tech Marketing.

        Well, I shouldn't be so harsh, but there's a certain standard that I think we all hold for those claiming to be the ultra de ultra, which when not realized in the marcom aspects, raises questions about the level of knowledge in other area's.

        Personally, I'd use phenolic sheet over Corian for a large dipole panel, though relatively inert, Corian is NOT strong or rigid, as such materials go. And the panel outline is plane ugly.... excuse the pun... :nono:

        Well, I wish him the best, and I'll be anxiously awaiting the 2004 CES! :#

        ~Jon




        Earth First!
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        Comment

        • Dennis H
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Aug 2002
          • 3798

          #5
          Woah, Dude, check that radical board. I mean that's like totally gnarly you know. 8)

          Comment

          • Andrew Pratt
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 16508

            #6
            You have to give him credit though for his stand up efforts with the centre channel...those are some nice woofers and the stand isn't half bad either :twisted:




            Comment

            • sfdoddsy
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2000
              • 496

              #7
              I agree. The use of the dolly bird, the Hawaiian shirt guy and the overboard claims make the speakers seem cheap.

              I'm also a little suspicious of the 127dB claim from dipole woofers.


              Steve




              Steve's DIY Dipoles
              Steve's OB Journey

              Comment

              • Hank
                Super Senior Member
                • Jul 2002
                • 1345

                #8
                Well, when I read the first post and went to the site, I was ready to be the wise guy, but you guys beat me to every point except one.
                I WAS going to say those are NOT planar woofers, the're good ole piston cone woofs. 127 db??!! I don't know 'bout that, AND, I've never been to a concert that had 127 dB levels or 120 DB or...(real music of course, not metal-head rock).

                Okay, here's MY unique comment: "$17,000??!! What a HUGE profit margin! Then I scrolled down and saw the model in the middle and DO understand the price if it includes HER!!"

                never mind

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15336

                  #9
                  Just a "little suspicious"?

                  Actually, judging by the surrounds used, and the likely cone travel of these TC sounds drivers, I'd expect an Xmax no more than 13-14 mm. In the midbass and lower midrange, ~122 dB should be doable, but that will be pushing things modearately hard. 17 Hz is going to be a relative "whisper"; think in terms of what one equivalent 12" or 10" in a sealed box will do, and that's about what a dipole rig like this will muster. About 90 db?

                  But yeah, I'm just an ordinary guy, and like Andrew, I think the center channel system is interesting, though the woofers are mounted pretty high... (I'm going to get banned for that kind of comment by any of the ladies on the forum). :LOL: :LOL:

                  He certainly doesn't exude that "Mark Levinson" Charisma, and if you're going to con the folks, you need something like that...

                  ~Jon




                  Earth First!
                  _______________________________
                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                  the AudioWorx
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                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Hank
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 1345

                    #10
                    Okay, I gotta say it: I continually see new, unheard of speakers with outlandish prices from unknown people. How do they sell those overpriced speakers? Are there enough wealthy people with no understanding of materials costs who also don't do lots of auditioning before writing out the big checks?

                    What really bothered me about that site wasn't the guys' shirt, it was his flip-flops, or nuveau ex-hippie sandals. They made a statement: "Take everything printed on this site with a grain of salt".

                    Damn, I had to go back and look at that babe. :boobies: :banana: I wonder if the $17,000 includes the black dress, or would I have to take her shopping upon arrival?

                    Comment

                    • Dennis H
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 3798

                      #11
                      Well guys, I'm even suspicious about the center channel. Actually, being somewhat of a connoisseur of such things, and with a little help from a woman who once explained what to look for, I'm quite certain. So the question for all you students of Archimedes - is there more polymer in the main channels' baffles or the center channel's "headlights?"

                      Comment

                      • sfdoddsy
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2000
                        • 496

                        #12
                        I tried to use SL's spreadsheet to work out how many 12 inch drivers you would need in a dipole to reach 127dB in the 20s. Even giving the drivers a highly debatable 30mm Xmax, I stopped adding up when I reached 48 and still had a couple of dB to go.

                        I don't mean to pick on this guy's speakers, but he has his dealers spreading these claims all over the web so they are fair game, IMHO.


                        Steve




                        Steve's DIY Dipoles
                        Steve's OB Journey

                        Comment

                        • Hank
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 1345

                          #13
                          they are fair game, IMHO.
                          Steve, you are quite correct! Deservedly fair game.

                          As long as we're getting technical, keep in mind that even though you might consider those center channel cones as unnaturally large, the stiffness of said polymer will reduce "cone sag" if mounted horizontally. Young's modulus, you know.:righton:

                          Comment

                          • Davey
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2003
                            • 355

                            #14
                            You guys are outta control!!

                            However, I did find a new website as a result.

                            http://www.lindaoneil.com/

                            Cheers,

                            Davey.

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15336

                              #15
                              Well, give Davey a cigar! It certainly appears that he's made the correct identification! I wonder if Ms. Oneil is aware that her likeness adorns the Gilmore Audio page? :roll:

                              ~Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
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                              Isiris
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                              In Development...
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                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Davey
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2003
                                • 355

                                #16
                                I can't design speakers worth a crap, but when it comes to babe identification I'm an expert! But it helped that Ms. Oneil was mentioned by name on the Atma-Sphere forum. Grin.

                                Davey.

                                Comment

                                • sfdoddsy
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2000
                                  • 496

                                  #17
                                  Here's how they describe the mystery woofers:

                                  "Second, and somewhat related is the skepticism concerning the ability of our woofers to move sufficient air to accomplish authoritative bass. Cone excursion of drivers on some of the sites referred to are as little as 6mm. We are able to attain big excursions, cleanly -- plus or minus 2 inches! So our four woofers move a lot of air. To do this, "you can't use no ordinary woofer", as my grandmother would say. Not surprisingly, we haven't. It is a very unique, proprietary planar driver with a surround that allows it to function much like a dynamic speaker -- on steroids. The magnets and supporting structure are very robust. As a result, we have a woofer that is very responsive (it moves fast) while remaining very compliant (it tracks the wave form very nicely). It has a very high QTS. The four drivers share the load so they "run cool". Even reasonably high spl levels can be maintained without loss of performance. We think you'll like what we have done, unless your the jealous type."

                                  Steve




                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15336

                                    #18
                                    When I first saw these, my initial thought was, "Gee, those look like HiVi M12 drivers!"

                                    Of course, they're not, from the baskets, they're some variety of TC-Sounds.. but they're not plus and minus 2" excursion drivers! The diameter of the surround half roll is relatively wimpy... it's about like the M12's, which are 7mm Xmax, which is pretty decent for a 12 that goes up to about 2 kHz, with 93.5 dB sensitivity at 2.83V RMS!





                                    Now, on the otherhand, look at one of my Blueprint BPD1203's, which were built by TC Sounds... they have a 1" Xmax, and the surround half roll looks like it!




                                    Any questions? No?

                                    Class dismissed. Except for Ms. Oneil, you're in detention for appearing in a low rent Audio web site. :naughty:

                                    Please see me later in study hall. arty:


                                    ~Jon




                                    Earth First!
                                    _______________________________
                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
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                                    In Development...
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                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • Dennis H
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2002
                                      • 3798

                                      #19
                                      I really like this one from Glacier Audio:

                                      We have chosen not to sell competing components. We have instead made judgments about what we believe are the "best of class" components, which in turn defines "best of class" systems. In this way, we can describe our mission as producing elegant systems for audiophiles (best of class systems), using best of class components.
                                      So what you do is make an appointment for your "private audition" and you get to come listen to one (and only one) system in your price range. They don't want to confuse you with any silly A/B comparisons with any 'inferior' products. "Here it is. Doesn't that sound great?" :assimilate:

                                      Comment

                                      • Hank
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Jul 2002
                                        • 1345

                                        #20
                                        Yessir, planar woofers they obviously are. Mount woofers in the same plane on a piece of plastic and Wah-lah! - planar woofs.
                                        Ms. Oniel should come to Texas for detention and I'll read the "Cookbook" to her while she sits on my lap.
                                        Now, let's get back to worthwhile discussion - about the cones on that CC.. :drool:

                                        Comment

                                        • sfdoddsy
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Sep 2000
                                          • 496

                                          #21
                                          I am really trying not to be an asshole, and I justify this question by stating that I am dumb and maybe haven't learnt what I thought I have learnt.

                                          However, one of the claims is that the speakers are phase coherent because the ribbon and the front of the drivers are on the same plane.

                                          This seems to me to be a) untrue and b) untrue.

                                          Steve




                                          Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                          Steve's OB Journey

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15336

                                            #22
                                            Where Hank comes from they like to open up a can of whup @ss; but you, Steve, are very good at opening cans of worms for discussion!

                                            That's a compliment, BTW!


                                            I understand that their have a "special" cone configuration with a planar front. Like some of the old KEF drivers, for example. That doesn't necessarily make the drivers (ribbon/planar driver and woofers) time aligned when mounted on the same baffle- but they might be modeartely close.

                                            Now, one man's definition of phase coherent can be quite different from another woman's definition (dang it, Ms. Oneil, quit distracting me!)

                                            In the 70's I used to experiment with and build speakers that were bonafide "phase coherent", as JohnK would describe- the drivers were acoustically aligned for time origin, and they used 1st order networks (including at times fairly complex impedance zobels) and they would pass a 1 kHz or 500 Hz square wave or similar pulse waves with high fidelity on axis. That's a minimum phase, phase coherent speaker.

                                            Then, there's mounting the drivers for aligned acoustic origin so that a conventional crossover such as a 3rd order Butterworth or 4th order L-R sums correctly without messing around with some additional phase shift in the network to compensate for time mis-alignment. That might be considered phase coherent through the crossover, but it won't pass impluse waveforms with high fidelity.

                                            And overall, it's not a phase coherent loudspeaker, because that term means to me that the speaker has pretty much constant phase until you hit the extremes (low and high) of it's range, where the inevitable phase shift must occur as you approach the roll-off points.

                                            Now, I don't want to get in a discussion here in this thread about whether one is better than the other; there are a lot of trade-offs involved, and most speakers I've done in the last ten years are continuous in phase through the crossover, but not phase coherent. There are real problems to address with doing phase coherent crossovers with 1st order slopes, including driver distortion, and non-uniform power response into the room (1st order networks are nice on axis, but have a huge off axis lobe that skews the power response). To create a minium phase speaker with the same dynamics, distortion, and response range as the M8 using low order minimum phase networks would require a 4 way system- the cost and size is substantially greater, and the fidelity in some rooms would be poorer.

                                            Life's about tradeoffs. If you want perfection, buy some Soundlab Electrostats!

                                            ~Jon




                                            Earth First!
                                            _______________________________
                                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • Davey
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jan 2003
                                              • 355

                                              #23
                                              The thing looks like a clone candidate to me.......even before the real thing hits the market! Or maybe that would add unwarranted respect to their design?

                                              Jon/Thomas,

                                              What would you estimate for cost on something like that, and would it be worth doing?

                                              Davey.

                                              Comment

                                              • Hank
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Jul 2002
                                                • 1345

                                                #24
                                                This seems to me to be a) untrue and b) untrue.
                                                I choose c) the Clinton answer: Depends on how you define 'coherent'
                                                Then, there's mounting the drivers for aligned acoustic origin so that a conventional crossover such as a 3rd order Butterworth or 4th order L-R sums correctly without messing around with some additional phase shift in the network to compensate for time mis-alignment
                                                Remember the big success of the Spica speakers with the physical alignment of acoustic centers? They were very successful.

                                                Davey, that thing is what we've (mainly Jon & Thomsas) have been discussing for months - a B-G mid/tweet ribbon and a line of mid-woofs. The discussion has gone back and forth between monopole and dipole implementation, but other than that, it's been the goal. Jon has actually acquired a pair of RD-50's. It should be a fun project. I think the speakers with the great-looking CC on this thread could better be labled as clones rather than originals.

                                                Hey, where's my compliment? whup-@ss has its place. :P

                                                Comment

                                                • ThomasW
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 10940

                                                  #25
                                                  Davey

                                                  Closest thing to his planar that is available to the general public is the B&G RD50

                                                  Don't know about his XO or use of flat piston 12" drivers. He must be using a relatively low XO point, not a good thing IMO.

                                                  If the Hi-Vi M-12's are ever available to the DIY market, they would be an excellent match for the B&G planars. Currently the best available match is probably a stack of the Hi-Vi M8a.

                                                  For the baffle there are a number of better options than Corian (it's not rigid). The best (and most seriously expensive) would a sheet phenolic plastic. (If it's good enough for David Wilson it's good enough for me) :B




                                                  theAudioWorx
                                                  Klone-Audio

                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Dennis H
                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2002
                                                    • 3798

                                                    #26
                                                    Corian (it's not rigid)
                                                    He has a square steel tube running up the backside so the baffle material probably doesn't matter all that much.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • ThomasW
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 10940

                                                      #27
                                                      He has a square steel tube running up the backside
                                                      It's not visible in the rear view pics on the website.





                                                      theAudioWorx
                                                      Klone-Audio

                                                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Dennis H
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                        • 3798

                                                        #28
                                                        Ah, you're right Thomas. I hadn't seen that rear view before. I think I was looking at a side view, maybe this one.



                                                        That must be the ribbon frame in the pic (which I suppose could stiffen the baffle in its own right).

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15336

                                                          #29
                                                          Hank's attitude and skills with wood working are ALWAYS deserving of compliments; the whup @ss bit is just a bonus!


                                                          Yes, Davey, ThomasW described it right, I'd sue the guy for concept infringement, except that his kitchen counter top speakers are so ugly I'd be embarrassed to link any kind of four M12 and RD50 on a side concoction I could come up with with the Gilmore Audio model. :E

                                                          Man, I think that's the nastiest thing I've ever said in an Internet post- what is happening to me?!? :roll: Well, I guess as the net goes, it's not really very nasty, though...

                                                          Still, I think the M12 would be cool in this application, but it would have to be crossed over to some other sub by around 60-75 Hz, I think, depending on the SPL you want. And I'm giving a ton of thought to baby ribbons or the new HiVi planar tweeters to cross over from the RD50 at about 6 kHz.







                                                          -Jon




                                                          Earth First!
                                                          _______________________________
                                                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Hank
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jul 2002
                                                            • 1345

                                                            #30
                                                            Jon, thanks for that unsolicited :roll: compliment.
                                                            ...his kitchen counter top speakers are so ugly I'd be embarrassed to link any kind of four M12 and RD50 on a side concoction I could come up with with the Gilmore Audio model.
                                                            Yikes h: , that's strong language - methinks Jon's overly long work hours are pushing him to the edge.
                                                            Actually, I LIKE the G.A. "model". That's a nice photo of the LCR rear :twisted:

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15336

                                                              #31
                                                              Yikes , that's strong language - methinks Jon's overly long work hours are pushing him to the edge.

                                                              Yeah, we were talking about this the other day, and ThomasW thinks my continual 7 day a week gig is pushing me to the brink of "Going Infineon"...

                                                              That's like "going Postal", but more technical... using bigger words, instead of just monosyllabic screams....

                                                              :a>'> :#




                                                              ~Jon




                                                              Earth First!
                                                              _______________________________
                                                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                              Natalie P
                                                              M8ta
                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                              Isiris
                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                              SMJ
                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                              Calliope
                                                              Ardent D

                                                              In Development...
                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                              Modula PWB
                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Hank
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Jul 2002
                                                                • 1345

                                                                #32
                                                                Austin is the answer

                                                                Comment

                                                                • sfdoddsy
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2000
                                                                  • 496

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by ThomasW
                                                                  Don't know about his XO or use of flat piston 12" drivers. He must be using a relatively low XO point, not a good thing IMO.
                                                                  The crossover point is apparently 200Hz.

                                                                  Steve




                                                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                                                  Comment

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