So where are all the Accuton-based designs?

[jackies]

Hello to all great participants of this forum!
I been lurking here for years, aiming to build some top quality speakers.
Incidentally, I did build a number of different speakers and didn't like them, so my ultimate speakers are yet to be built. My last attempt was Tony Gee's Soup Ceramique, but I didn't like the sound, and then I dropped one of the mid drivers and BAM!, it cracked... :banghead:
I'm not the person to give up my dreams, so I was thinking to try the C79, and only complete project I can find on the web is Milestones. (Besides Tony Gee's stuff).
I see the C79 is mentioned quite a bit on this forum, but all complete projects are based on Dayton etc.
So, anyone has completed anything using Accutons?

[Jed]

Jon Marsh has designed a couple designs with Accuton and published the designs, although I'm not sure if they are 100% finished, yet. I think many other DIYers don't use the Accuton drivers, because they don't really offer the best value per dollar. I'm a big fan of them myself, though-- especially the C173-6-090 mid.

If you do a quick search you'll see Jon did a crossover version of the Milestones. If I were you I'd try that out.

Jed

[jackies]

Jed, thanks for the prompt reply!
Naturally, I read the thread where Jon Marsh presents his version of Milestones crossover like 5 times back and forth, trying to make sure I didn't miss some slight nuance...

[benchtester]

Jed, or anyone,

Could you compare and contrast the C173-6-090 with the 18W or 15W Revelators?

[jackies]

Hey benchtester! Ever heard of thread hijacking?

Now I have this 18W - slit paper - didn't like it one bit.
Anyhow, in this thread we are looking for Accuton based projects.

[cjd]

There are probably a lot of reasons, but it probably comes down to cost.

The expense puts them way beyond where so many folks want to play, and they fall well into the "diminishing returns per dollar" realm.

I'd love to work with them, but can't convince myself to spend the cash yet. If I had a workshop where I could really take my time on a project, I suspect I'd be more inclined.

[TacoD]

Hello to all great participants of this forum!
I been lurking here for years, aiming to build some top quality speakers.
Incidentally, I did build a number of different speakers and didn't like them, so my ultimate speakers are yet to be built. My last attempt was Tony Gee's Soup Ceramique, but I didn't like the sound, and then I dropped one of the mid drivers and BAM!, it cracked... :banghead:
I'm not the person to give up my dreams, so I was thinking to try the C79, and only complete project I can find on the web is Milestones. (Besides Tony Gee's stuff).
I see the C79 is mentioned quite a bit on this forum, but all complete projects are based on Dayton etc.
So, anyone has completed anything using Accutons?

Tony's designs are also not my cup of tea, but iirc Marc Heijligers also did a alternative x-over for the same driver configuration, which is in my view a much better implementation. I did not hear these, but from a technical point of view these seems to be much beter (measurements performed in an anechoic room http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijlig.../anechoic.html)

There are more projects on the Internet, but most I have seen are crappy implementations of these units (some people think that because these drivers are expensive you do not need a good crossover to get a proper loudspeker :evil: ).

Also some designs, using the older units, can be found in the German DIY magazines.

[Undefinition]

There are probably a lot of reasons, but it probably comes down to cost.

The expense puts them way beyond where so many folks want to play, and they fall well into the "diminishing returns per dollar" realm.

I'd love to work with them, but can't convince myself to spend the cash yet. If I had a workshop where I could really take my time on a project, I suspect I'd be more inclined.

+1
Like, I'd be glad to do an Accuton project, but I don't have that kind of cash on-hand to buy the drivers. But if anyone wants to BUILD an Accuton-based system and have me design the XO, I'm game. (For instance, jackies, it sounds as though you have the system built--except for the broken driver. If you can get them to my house, I'll re-do the crossover. No charge)

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/xo-design-service

[dsrviola]

Accuton projects

I just finished one recently:

Images not available

The picture shows 12 ohm version C89 as mid range drivers. I've since moved to C79s. The tweeter is a C12 and the woofers are C95's (old basket.) Took measurements of the drivers in situ outside, worked up a few versions of the crossover. Played with 1st, 2nd and 3rd order electrical. After listening to each one (some being much more "correct" than others) I decided on a relatively simple crossover. I'm pleased with them.

Cheers

[Jed]

Jed, or anyone,

Could you compare and contrast the C173-6-090 with the 18W or 15W Revelators?

While I think the 15W is a very good driver and have used it in several implementations, the C713-6-090 is THE BEST driver I've heard in the midrange from say 200hz - 2k.

Reasons why I think it's the best mid are from a technical perspective and after many listening hours (some tests of both of these drivers are in the testing section of my website).

The 090 is cleaner, has a bigger and more holographic soundstage where instruments appear to come from other rooms!, is very linear and plays clean at loud levels-- that kind of thing.

Another Accuton I've had my eye on and will definitely try out is the C78 (when they get back in stock at madisound). It's smoother top end than the C79 is appealing, as well as lacking the ferrofluid in the motor.

Not to get off topic, but you did ask.

Regards,

Jed

[jackies]

+1
I'll re-do the crossover. No charge!
http://sites.google.com/site/undefin...design-service

Now that's the spirit!
:T
Now that C173-90 driver sure looks pretty, except the $614 price tag.
:E
Is there anything to it to justify double price compared to other (already not very cheap) accuton drivers?
Plots do look very nice indeed, 100-3k!
Jed, if you don't mind me asking, which crossover points and slopes you were able to use with this C173-90?

[dsrviola]

Jed, I look forward to hearing about your experience with the C79. I hope you'll take the time to compare it with the C173-6-090. One of the reasons I finally went with the C79 is that I was committed (in more ways than one) to the C12 tweeter. The C173-6-090 appears to want a tweeter that goes lower with more grace than something like the C12.

Cheers

[Jed]

Jed, if you don't mind me asking, which crossover points and slopes you were able to use with this C173-90?

I've hit 2nd-4th order acoustic slopes with no problem with an optimized passband from ~250-2.5k (varies depending on application and other drivers used to mate up with it). I wouldn't take it much lower or higher than that as one wants to keep the driver in it's most pistonic range for good off axis response, lowest linear and non-linear distortion range, all while dealing with the driver's cone breakup interference.

[Jed]

Jed, I look forward to hearing about your experience with the C79. I hope you'll take the time to compare it with the C173-6-090. One of the reasons I finally went with the C79 is that I was committed (in more ways than one) to the C12 tweeter. The C173-6-090 appears to want a tweeter that goes lower with more grace than something like the C12.

Cheers

I'll likely go with C78 soon.

I agree the C12 is probably not the tweeter of choice with the 090. The C79 will mate up the C12 nicely at 2.5-3.2k LR4.

Jed

[jackies]

I'll likely go with C78 soon.

I guess it's the best choice for me too, since I, too, have C12 too.
What about C78 though, is it a new addition to the Accuton line or something? I don't recall seeing it earlier...

[Jed]

I guess it's the best choice for me too, since I, too, have C12 too.
What about C78 though, is it a new addition to the Accuton line or something? I don't recall seeing it earlier...

It's basically a C79 without ferrofluid from what I can tell by the new specs. It's a bit more sensitive below 800hz, and has a bit less of a bump in the FR @ the lower treble. Harmonic distortion plots look pretty close according to what is posted on the accuton website. The little dip around 800hz won't be much of an issue because there is usually a baffle diffraction peak around there, so the response will likely be nice and flat with the right baffle layout and geometry. Same can be said of the C79... so when it comes to drivers of this caliber, it's more about what will work best for the given design goals, target sensitivity, etc.

[Hdale85]

You guys are making my next set of 2 channel speakers more and more expensive ...... Oh well should have a dedicated listening room soon :T Then things will get real interesting.

[Bear]

Is there anything to it to justify double price compared to other (already not very cheap) accuton drivers?
Plots do look very nice indeed, 100-3k!
Jed, if you don't mind me asking, which crossover points and slopes you were able to use with this C173-90?

Don't make the mistake of assuming that all Accutons are definitionally better than what's available from other, cheaper manufacturers. Some Accutons have great reputations, others seem to be white elephants in terms of value.

[jackies]

Well, I deicded to go with accutons because I hope I could achieve some very clean sound with them. I already know I don't like aluminum and paper drivers because they color the sound in a certain way. I like poly drivers better, but to me it seems they lack resolution somewhat, especially at low volume levels. I will be checking the ATC dome mids soon too..

[cjd]

Now that's the spirit!
:T

I think you'll find a lot of folks here that work this way. The only time I specifically request any type of compensation in one form or another is if someone wants me to do a design but I have to build boxes myself - I usually have to have some passing interest in the project as well, in this case. And in honesty I've gained more from "thank you" gifts than any other way, and I've never asked for this either. And in at least one instance it was fairly clearly stated up front that I should NOT receive anything of the sort, yet what shows up? :M (you know who you are... :P )

C

[yelnatsch517]

While I think the 15W is a very good driver and have used it in several implementations, the C713-6-090 is THE BEST driver I've heard in the midrange from say 200hz - 2k.

Reasons why I think it's the best mid are from a technical perspective and after many listening hours (some tests of both of these drivers are in the testing section of my website).

The 090 is cleaner, has a bigger and more holographic soundstage where instruments appear to come from other rooms!, is very linear and plays clean at loud levels-- that kind of thing.

Another Accuton I've had my eye on and will definitely try out is the C78 (when they get back in stock at madisound). It's smoother top end than the C79 is appealing, as well as lacking the ferrofluid in the motor.

Not to get off topic, but you did ask.

Regards,

Jed

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but has anyone heard the 096E? The distortion numbers on it are even lower; however, there is a slight bump in FR between 1kHz and 2kHz.

Also, has anyone attempted to make a DIY version of Evolution Acoustic's MMTwo? It looks similar to Dsrviola's build.

[Rick Craig]

Yes, I used it in a recent design with a RAAL ribbon tweeter.

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but has anyone heard the 096E? The distortion numbers on it are even lower; however, there is a slight bump in FR between 1kHz and 2kHz.

Also, has anyone attempted to make a DIY version of Evolution Acoustic's MMTwo? It looks similar to Dsrviola's build.

[Jed]

Yes, I used it in a recent design with a RAAL ribbon tweeter.

Sounds like a tasty combo...

[Jed]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but has anyone heard the 096E? The distortion numbers on it are even lower; however, there is a slight bump in FR between 1kHz and 2kHz.

Also, has anyone attempted to make a DIY version of Evolution Acoustic's MMTwo? It looks similar to Dsrviola's build.

That woodwork sure would be a challenge!

These also look very nice with all Accuton drivers... although the rise in the posted midrange frequency response plot leaves a little to be desired, IMO. Probably a bit bright sounding. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Humble_Statement.html

[JonMarsh]

Has me scratching my head, too...

That woodwork sure would be a challenge!

These also look very nice with all Accuton drivers... although the rise in the posted midrange frequency response plot leaves a little to be desired, IMO. Probably a bit bright sounding. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Humble_Statement.html

Tony is such an interesting and strange guy- maybe there's a way they're setup just so in his room to where a quasi anehoic curve like he's published works out OK via room boundary reinforcement, but in general, it's hard for me to see how...

OTOH, I've heard systems that sound like this at CES and RMAF, so I'm sure it happens all the time- not designing for a more general accoustic, and a more neutral power response.

I'm fully behind TacoD's thoughts:

Tony's designs are also not my cup of tea, but iirc Marc Heijligers also did a alternative x-over for the same driver configuration, which is in my view a much better implementation. I did not hear these, but from a technical point of view these seems to be much beter (measurements performed in an anechoic room http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijli...c/anechoic.html)

There are more projects on the Internet, but most I have seen are crappy implementations of these units (some people think that because these drivers are expensive you do not need a good crossover to get a proper loudspeker ).

Also some designs, using the older units, can be found in the German DIY magazines.

Bear's thoughts match my experience and testing:

Don't make the mistake of assuming that all Accutons are definitionally better than what's available from other, cheaper manufacturers. Some Accutons have great reputations, others seem to be white elephants in terms of value.

And I've got to find some time to get over to Jed's site and see if he's done something with that C78- it sounds interesting, but I've never tested on. I have tested the C88 and C89, not so interesting, IMO.


And speaking of C79's, I'm continuing to examine and update the Ardent crossover based on my developmental experience with the Modula Xtreme's; ordered some more parts last night for crossover updates after the latest round of measurement, simulation and testing, and am actually taking parts out of the crossover, I think- if things work out based on the tests I've done, following a bit of long term listening. Just fairly flat measured response on axis isn't quite enough, all things considered, but I think these will be quite nice in the final version when I wrap them up shortly. Changes have to do with opening up the midwoofer passband slightly, adjusting the midrange response for better tracking to the Duelund function. Maybe another tweak/pass on the tweeter side before I'm done.

So, yeah, I think I can improve on this:



Both in how it measures and how it sounds.

[Jed]

Hey Jon,

The on axis response looks nice... would like to see 5db window/resolution, but it certainly looks flat!

I've yet to try the C90-6-78... maybe down the road for a CC application I've been thinking about.

[yelnatsch517]

Bear's thoughts match my experience and testing:



And I've got to find some time to get over to Jed's site and see if he's done something with that C78- it sounds interesting, but I've never tested on. I have tested the C88 and C89, not so interesting, IMO.


And speaking of C79's, I'm continuing to examine and update the Ardent crossover based on my developmental experience with the Modula Xtreme's; ordered some more parts last night for crossover updates after the latest round of measurement, simulation and testing, and am actually taking parts out of the crossover, I think- if things work out based on the tests I've done, following a bit of long term listening. Just fairly flat measured response on axis isn't quite enough, all things considered, but I think these will be quite nice in the final version when I wrap them up shortly. Changes have to do with opening up the midwoofer passband slightly, adjusting the midrange response for better tracking to the Duelund function. Maybe another tweak/pass on the tweeter side before I'm done.


Both in how it measures and how it sounds.

Since you're not impressed with the Accutons, may I ask what alternative drivers you would recommend over them? I asked someone else this question just the other day and he suggested pro sound drivers, B&C to be specific. I'm wondering what your thoughts were.

Thank You

[JonMarsh]

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression-

I am not impressed with Accuton's across the board, but CERTAIN models due perform quite well- with the right care- but picking those out takes a bit of effort and testing. Things to look at include the linear distortion (time domain) and resonance amplification of distortion products within the main working area of the driver.

For example, of the parts I've tested, I do think you can do very good things with the C173-6-90 and C90-6-079. These are two of my favorite midranges. Based on published data, I expect the C90-6-078, S220-6-222 and C173-6-096e to be very good, also, but that's speculation on my part based on published specs, especially with regards to distortion. YMMV. The value proposition and one's means must be taken into account. OTOH, I really like the results I've gotten to date with those first two mentioned above. But I do agree it takes some judgement and time and the right crossover approach to get the best from them, if you want to get enough "magic" to justify the price.

Jed, that's an older sweep of the last version of the crossover; the point being, that the updated version will do better when finished, I'm fairly sure. (had taken another new set of driver measurements in cabinet, and some new work in LspCAD- some day I'm going to get the hang of this...) I'm Targeting in room 1.5 to 2M measurements.