Pop/Crack with Statements

[dsl1]

I have a quick question for an issue that is a little concerning.

I built Jim's Statements and am totally loving them. I am driving them currently with a Panasonic xr57 (I know I know upgrading soon). I've put about 150 hours of movies/music in and within that time, I have had two fairly loud popping/cracks during heavy scenes in movies. Specifically, in Iron Man when the Obadiah's big suit lands and in the Incredibles when the rocket takes off. Replaying the scenes at the same volume doesn't repeat the effect. I am playing at ~-20 to -25 db through spdif on a htpc. The speakers seem totally fine, everything sounds great, excursion is still normal on the RS225's etc. So it seems unless I am missing something, the speakers are not damaged.

I am guessing it is just my amp is messing up somewhere, (I noticed Bass was +2 so maybe it was clipping something?). I was just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts/comments/concerns.

Thanks!

[David Meek]

DSL1, I moved this to the DIY forum. This is the place to get more in-depth answers to your question.

[Jim Holtz]

I have a quick question for an issue that is a little concerning.

I built Jim's Statements and am totally loving them. I am driving them currently with a Panasonic xr57 (I know I know upgrading soon). I've put about 150 hours of movies/music in and within that time, I have had two fairly loud popping/cracks during heavy scenes in movies. Specifically, in Iron Man when the Obadiah's big suit lands and in the Incredibles when the rocket takes off. Replaying the scenes at the same volume doesn't repeat the effect. I am playing at ~-20 to -25 db through spdif on a htpc. The speakers seem totally fine, everything sounds great, excursion is still normal on the RS225's etc. So it seems unless I am missing something, the speakers are not damaged.

I am guessing it is just my amp is messing up somewhere, (I noticed Bass was +2 so maybe it was clipping something?). I was just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts/comments/concerns.

Thanks!

Hi DSL1,

Iron Man is a sub destroyer. Seriously, I ruined two subs with it by bottoming them out while trying to adjust them. So, my money says you bottomed the RS225's with the bass setting you're using. Lower the bass a little bit and you'll be fine.

The Statements have excellent bass for most music but need a sub for serious bass during movies.

I've never bottomed mine. Now I know they'll take a little abuse if I get carried away. :E

Jim

[DeathMonk]

Same thing happened to me Sunday night :O

It was only one speaker and maybe just one woofer. I have some new cables on the way so I will rule that out.. I have an Emotiva XPA-3 so maybe you can rule out your receiver too.

If that doesn't fix it I will pull the woofers and check the wiring internally.. Though I did solder everything and double checked

This was, however, louder than I would normally play them

[dsl1]

Hi DSL1,

Iron Man is a sub destroyer. Seriously, I ruined two subs with it by bottoming them out while trying to adjust them. So, my money says you bottomed the RS225's with the bass setting you're using. Lower the bass a little bit and you'll be fine.

The Statements have excellent bass for most music but need a sub for serious bass during movies.

I've never bottomed mine. Now I know they'll take a little abuse if I get carried away. :E

Jim

Thanks for the response. After reading a bit more about speakers bottoming out that sounds exactly like what it is. For whatever reason, it seems to have only happened on the left speaker but that is what it is. I turned down the bass back to 0 and it hasn't happened again but I guess I just have to be careful with movies at >-20 on my amp. I did do a run through of flight fighting scene in Avatar at -5 which was painfully loud with no issues. Must just have to be the right combo of deep bass to make the RS225's bottom.

Should I be worried about having damaged the RS225's after them bottoming out once/twice? As I said, everything still sounds fine and the RS225's seem to be a pretty sturdy driver.

Also Jim, I would like to thank you/the team for the Statement design, they are truly a remarkable sounding speaker.

[Jim Holtz]

Thank you for the kind words but Curt is the one that should receive the credit for how good the Statements series speakers sound. He is the crossover wizard that makes them sing. ;x(

If the driver sounds OK, I'm sure it's fine and I wouldn't worry about it. The particular combination in that scene from Iron Man has super deep and powerful bass. It's hard on speaker/sub drivers if you have the bass cranked up. Different drivers handle bottoming differently, some better than others.

I think you're good to go. Just watch the bass setting or get a sub to handle the subterranean bass in some movies.

Jim

[dsl1]

Good to hear. I'll be more careful in the future.

I also have one question, I changed the bases around a little bit as I wasn't a fan of the super thick bottom.

This is what I did:



From top down it's the 55 inch of speaker -> 3/4inch bottom piece - 2 3/4inch closet dowel -> 1 1/2inch mdf base (if my math works out this should keep them at 60inch high/tweeter ear level). This only gives the port 2 3/4inch between the bottom of the speaker and the top of the base. Should I be worried about this changing the tuning to much?

I am planning on veneering the speakers and painting the base/dowels black so they look like they are floating in the dark.

On a side note, I am surprised and happy to see how many people from Iowa are active here and into speaker building. I am from Fairfield (Southeast Iowa).

[DeathMonk]

You shouldn't have to worry about it. That is plenty of room for the port to breathe.

[DeathMonk]

Different drivers handle bottoming differently, some better than others.

I also thought of this, but in my case, if its only one woofer and the rest of them sound fine at that SPL then wouldn't it make that one defective?

[ThomasW]

Another possibility is the amp clipping. Panasonic rates this amp to drive 6-16 ohm loads. The Statements present a 4.5 ohm load.

Playing a DVD with heavy really low bass maybe stressing the receiver too much when it's hooked up to a lower impedance load.

[dsl1]

Another possibility is the amp clipping. Panasonic rates this amp to drive 6-16 ohm loads. The Statements present a 4.5 ohm load.

Playing a DVD with heavy really low bass maybe stressing the receiver too much when it's hooked up to a lower impedance load.

This is quite possible too. In would think under normal circumstances going back and replaying the same scene would cause the driver to bottom again at the same SPL but that didn't happen so maybe it is the amp deciding to clip? The sound did sound like a metallic screech people describe with drivers bottoming though. Would the amp clipping cause a similar sound?

[Curt C]

The voice coil former will make a pretty distinctive, very loud pop or click sound when it hits the back plate. It should also be repeatable (not that anyone would ever intentionally do so) under the same conditions. That said, it is also very possible that the amplifier was losing control due to the high voltage/current/temp conditions. Clipping per se, is more of an upper mid and tweeter pass band phenomena, due to the high frequencies generated when the input signal exceeds the power supply rails.

What information I can find on the Panasonic xr57 indicates the amplifier is class D and utilizes MOSFET output drivers. The 100 watts they spec is not the FTC spec but measured at 1 kHz, and results in a power reading skewed significantly higher than if it were measured under the FTC rule. All this suggests that the Panny may be working harder than it comfortably can driving the Statements.

Another possibility may be a cabinet leak, perhaps around one of the woofers, affecting the cabinet compliance at and above the tuning frequency. This might cause unpredictable woofer excursion, and the occasional pop as the former tries to push itself out the back of the magnet assembly.

Your base is fine and the port will breath easy...

C

[DeathMonk]

Good info.

Never thought about a leak.

[dsl1]

snip

C

Thank you for the info, I will double check the seal around the drivers. This is certainly a possibility.

The amp gets hot watching movies at higher levels, hotter then a digital amp should. The XR57 also dual amp's the Statements, so theoretically it would be 100w x2 for the Statements (obviously real world is a lot less but we aren't looking at 50w a channel) but as you said, 4.5ohm load from the Statements is probably hard for it. I think it is a pretty decent amp in terms of audio quality. When I purchased it, there was a large thread on AVS about the sound quality being excellent on the Panasonic digital amps. The downside is that it has next to no video frills. I will get a new amp at some point, just with everything I need to purchase for the theater still, it's not at the top of the list. What are recommended amps under 1000$?


Thanks for the help!

[Jim Holtz]

On a side note, I am surprised and happy to see how many people from Iowa are active here and into speaker building. I am from Fairfield (Southeast Iowa).

I didn't realize you were from Iowa too. Welcome!

If you haven't heard about the Iowa DIY event, it'll be held in Grinnell this October 16th at the Grinnell college auditorium. I hope you can make it. Lot's of folks from all over the Midwest and beyond make the drive. It's a lot of fun!

Jim

[Fdas]

This is the wrong thread for this question, but it doesn't seem like I should start my own thread for what will be a pretty simple answer.

What is the approx sensitivity of each of the speakers in the statement family.

I would be amplifying them [at least for the time being] with an Onkyo 805, and wonder if the statement monitor can be driving to reference volume with that amp?

Current speakers are some old B&W 302 that I've had for 11 years or so. They are relatively sensitive at 91 db 2.83V/1m. I think the monitor statements will play quieter. Thats not really a problem as I am currently trimming the 302's back about 7db, so I have some headroom. But if reference volume can't be reached with the monitors i'd like to know.

[Jim Holtz]

What do you consider reference?

Jim

[dsl1]

I didn't realize you were from Iowa too. Welcome!

If you haven't heard about the Iowa DIY event, it'll be held in Grinnell this October 16th at the Grinnell college auditorium. I hope you can make it. Lot's of folks from all over the Midwest and beyond make the drive. It's a lot of fun!

Jim

If I am around I will certainly attend. Grinnell is only about an hour and a half drive.

[Curt C]

Thank you for the info, I will double check the seal around the drivers. This is certainly a possibility.

The amp gets hot watching movies at higher levels, hotter then a digital amp should. The XR57 also dual amp's the Statements, so theoretically it would be 100w x2 for the Statements

Thanks for the help!

I’m not an HT guy, but a stereo guy by predilection. Looking at it from a hardware standpoint, I’d suggest it is being overworked, and a separate amplifier for the front 3 speakers, such as one of the Emotiva offerings would resolve the issue. –Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear the XR57 has pre-outs… -It does appear that the Panny does automatically bridge its amplifiers for 2 channel operation. This is a mixed blessing, as bridged amplifiers are not as tolerant of lower impedance, usually doubling their lowest acceptable speaker load. –However, the bi-amp feature is slick, although it uses up 6 channels for stereo.

As efficient as class D amplifiers are, they still dissipate heat, and sufficient heat sinking is often eschewed in high value amplifiers as a cost saving measure, -along with an appropriately stout power supply. By offloading the front 3 channels to a separate power amp, the surround channels can be easily driven by the receiver without issue.

C

[Fdas]

What do you consider reference?

Jim

105 db peaks?

I think the 805 can handle the 4 ohm average impedance.

I don't really need the extension of the full tower. I'm sure I'll end up crossing over to the sub at 60 - 80 hz anyways.

[Jim Holtz]

105 db peaks?

I think the 805 can handle the 4 ohm average impedance.

I don't really need the extension of the full tower. I'm sure I'll end up crossing over to the sub at 60 - 80 hz anyways.

If I remember correctly, here are the approximate sensitivities of the various Statements speakers:

Statements - 88 to 89 db
Mini Statements - 86 to 87 db
Statement Monitors - 86 to 87 db

Curt: Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.

Some things to think about: The maximum "rated" SPL for the Monitors is 104 db. The Mini's are about 110 db and the Statements are about 112 db. I would consider these to be safe maximums but I wouldn't want to exceed this too much. These are all based on Unibox.

The Onkyo is rated for more than adequate power in 2-channel and should power any of the speakers easily. However, based on what I've read, it's like most receivers and the power drops to about 1/3 of it's rated power when all channels are driven. The bottom line is, you can't beat a good separate amp for audio or home theater.

HTH

Jim

[Fdas]

If I remember correctly, here are the approximate sensitivities of the various Statements speakers:

Statements - 88 to 89 db
Mini Statements - 86 to 87 db
Statement Monitors - 86 to 87 db

Curt: Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.

Some things to think about: The maximum "rated" SPL for the Monitors is 104 db. The Mini's are about 110 db and the Statements are about 112 db. I would consider these to be safe maximums but I wouldn't want to exceed this too much. These are all based on Unibox.

The Onkyo is rated for more than adequate power in 2-channel and should power any of the speakers easily. However, based on what I've read, it's like most receivers and the power drops to about 1/3 of it's rated power when all channels are driven. The bottom line is, you can't beat a good separate amp for audio or home theater.

HTH

Jim

I will be looking forward to having a home theater at some point. However initially I'll be just building LCR. There really is no room for rear channels currently.

The Onkyo Says 150 watts into 4 ohm w/ 2 channels driven. I figure even if that drops off somewhat when I drive 3 channels then I should be good.

104db is plenty loud. I'm sure that that would be more than enough.

Also, it seems like the Statement center channel matches better with the monitors than it does with the full towers.

[Jim Holtz]

Also, it seems like the Statement center channel matches better with the monitors than it does with the full towers.

Actually, the Statements center matches extremely well with any of the Statements series speakers. The voicing on all of the speakers including the center is nearly identical which creates a seamless "bubble" of sound that engulfs you. Obviously, it works particularly well with Statements series surrounds too.

Jim

[Fdas]

Actually, the Statements center matches extremely well with any of the Statements series speakers. The voicing on all of the speakers including the center is nearly identical which creates a seamless "bubble" of sound that engulfs you. Obviously, it works particularly well with Statements series surrounds too.

Jim

I just meant that the overall level matching of the speakers would be easier with the monitors/center channel. They would be all identical basically?

I am still tempted to build the monster towers. They look amazing and I love the idea of the very open soundstage.

As a matter of comparison, do any commercially available speakers have similar performance that you can reference?

[Jim Holtz]

I just meant that the overall level matching of the speakers would be easier with the monitors/center channel. They would be all identical basically?

I am still tempted to build the monster towers. They look amazing and I love the idea of the very open soundstage.

As a matter of comparison, do any commercially available speakers have similar performance that you can reference?

OK, voicing is different than sensitivity. Voicing means they have the same tonal characteristics and would be difficult to tell which speaker was playing unless you were looking at them. They all sound alike except for bass impact. They all have very similar sound stages since all of the midranges are open back.

Regarding matching SPL level between main speakers and the center, that's a function built in a 5.1/7.1 receiver/processor. Sensitivity is close but not exact so it would have to be balanced.

I'm not the right guy to compare the Statements to commercial speakers. Search the Statements thread in Mission Accomplished for many comparisons by builders.

HTH

Jim

[DeathMonk]

I checked for leaks and I couldn't detect anything. It is just the one speaker and both woofers do it.

[Face]

As far as receivers go, the Onk 805 isn't too bad. I would still go with an external amp though.

[Curt C]

I checked for leaks and I couldn't detect anything. It is just the one speaker and both woofers do it.

A troubleshooting checklist:

Swap L and R outputs at the amplifier. If the issue stays on the same speaker cab:

Swap the woofers between the two cabs. If the issue stays on the same speaker cab:

Swap the woofer crossovers if possible. Otherwise verify the crossovers, woofer phasing, etc. Check for any other potential leak sources in the cab.

At some point the issue will swap to the other enclosure. -Otherwise it must be an enclosure issue.

C

[DeathMonk]

A troubleshooting checklist:

Swap L and R outputs at the amplifier. If the issue stays on the same speaker cab:

Swap the woofers between the two cabs. If the issue stays on the same speaker cab:

Swap the woofer crossovers if possible. Otherwise verify the crossovers, woofer phasing, etc. Check for any other potential leak sources in the cab.

At some point the issue will swap to the other enclosure. -Otherwise it must be an enclosure issue.

C

Well so far I've ruled out the receiver, amp, external wiring and cabinet leaks. I just plugged the port nice and air tight and I couldn't feel even the slightest leak. (also pops with plugged port at same volume)

I guess that only leaves internal wiring and xover.

...Or woofers, I guess.

[Jim Holtz]

Well so far I've ruled out the receiver, amp, external wiring and cabinet leaks. I just plugged the port nice and air tight and I couldn't feel even the slightest leak. (also pops with plugged port at same volume)

I guess that only leaves internal wiring and xover.

...Or woofers, I guess.

How loud are you playing the Statements when you hear the pop? What music/movie do you have playing? What happens when you swap speaker cables between speakers?

Jim

[DeathMonk]

How loud are you playing the Statements when you hear the pop? What music/movie do you have playing? What happens when you swap speaker cables between speakers?

Jim

I am playing rap/hiphop and really, it's not that loud.. 99% of the stuff I listen to I would never even know there was a problem, but now that I know there is, I have to fix it.

I swapped channels on the amp and also the preouts on the receiver... The problem is at the speaker.

[dsl1]

I am playing rap/hiphop and really, it's not that loud.. 99% of the stuff I listen to I would never even know there was a problem, but now that I know there is, I have to fix it.

I swapped channels on the amp and also the preouts on the receiver... The problem is at the speaker.

Switch drivers?

[DeathMonk]

It'll be part of the next step

[DeathMonk]

I just got some old model RS woofers for my statements from someone on the boards and it fixed the problem.

Upon further inspection, the voice coil was separated from the spider (bad glue).

Happy to finally be at 100%!

[AdelaaR]

Any idea how that voice coil got separated from that driver then?
You say "bad glue" ... do you mean that they are erroneously manufactured?

[DeathMonk]

It was like that since day 1.. So i would have to say defect.

[Cort]

I had on of my rs 180's start popping last night at the beginning of "Inception", I immediately took -10db off the LFE and it quit popping, tomorrow , I'll pull it and see if it's separated.

No damage done, however I did discover that I forgotten to plug 2-1/4" holes. liquid nails solved that, Thanks Curt