New HiVi M12

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  • Dennis H
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Aug 2002
    • 3798

    New HiVi M12

    Very interesting. 8O 8O

    Only 7.3 mm. of Xmax but 531 sq.cm. of Sd and it looks like you could cross it pretty high.







  • Andrew Pratt
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 16507

    #2
    Cool!




    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15311

      #3
      Ooooh, a new big HiVi M series driver!

      7 mm Xmax with a nominal sensitivity of 93 dB is nothing to sneeze at! I'm getting a woody just thinking about it.... :banana:

      Frankly, it doesn't seem possible. Can you spell, Eidolon Klone or Eidolon Killer?

      ;-x :#



      Now, when is PE gonna have this puppy, and how much is it going to cost? Yowsa.....

      :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y :-y


      What birdie told you about these? They aren't on the regular driver list page at Swanspeaker....

      These would be perfect for a mini Wilson Max klone, too, because you could use a first order roll off on them at 125, with no problems from the top end... or maybe a killer dipole mid bass to upper mids... hmmmm.

      As usual, it will be intersting to see what they want for these.

      'Fess up Dennis, how'd you know? :W

      ~Jon




      Earth First!
      _______________________________
      We'll screw up the other planets later....
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
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      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
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      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Dennis H
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Aug 2002
        • 3798

        #4
        Well, I wish I could claim some great insider info but I was just browsing the regular Swans page looking for something else [Lloyd Bridges voice] And Then I Saw It [/Lloyd Bridges voice]. :LOL:

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15311

          #5
          Weird. Must be our proxy server at work. When I went to the Swans driver page this afternoon, after seeing your post, even after refresshing a couple of times, no M12. But it does show up at home on good ole SBCGLOBAL.NET

          Thanks for the heads up.... as you might understand, I already have several ideas... retrofit the X1 top modules (D6.8's), and build a new, more "Wilson Max" size bottom module, same overall side width, but tapered on a bevel to the front, use 'em on the same bases, and the resulting driver efficiencies should work out OK for a full passive crossover, using the 12's for baffle step comp, 6 dB/octave roll from 200 Hz to 800 Hz, then diving above that... they would probably be perfect for converting the X1's to a passive crossover system. Well, better put a lid on that for now!

          ~Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Dennis H
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Aug 2002
            • 3798

            #6
            Not to mention the "I've Gotcher Full-range 2-way Dipole Line Source Right Here, Pal" system. :LOL:

            Stack of M12s + an RD-75, anyone?

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15311

              #7
              Or, for the more penurious among us, RD50 and stack of M12's.

              Now, Dennis, why did you have to go and give that away? I was hoping no one else thought of that, and I could just spring it on folks sometime later on, when I can afford to buy the drivers and make sure it works! :B


              :T :T :T :T :T :T :T :T



              ~Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
              We'll screw up the other planets later....
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Hank
                Super Senior Member
                • Jul 2002
                • 1345

                #8
                Yeah, right...like no "one" here was instantly thinking of a line source application...sheesh!
                Or, for the more penurious among us, RD50 and stack of M12's.
                Hey, I resemble that! I'm frugal, not cheap.

                In return:
                I'm getting a woody just thinking about it...
                Jon, you've got to get out a bit more. Need I lecture you again about your overcommittment at work?

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15311

                  #9
                  Ummm, lecture away, Hank, but it might be more effective if you sent an email to my boss... but then his eye is either on the bottom line, or his new baby girl!

                  :yesnod:


                  So I have to find my fun in weird and inconvenient times lately- closest thing I've had to a social life was the DIY meet!

                  But point taken... mind you, there are other things that inspire a response in me also, but all it takes with the speakers is money.

                  Actually, my first thought and most likely use for this M12 is to "downsize" the bass bins my X1 klones... in fact, I've already done a preliminary analysis of two of these wired in series (note the impedance? These are 4 ohm drivers! That's why they're 93 dB/2.83 VRMS!) in a 100 to 120 liter box. In a 100 liter box, with two 4" ports firing out the bottom, tuned to 24 Hz, the anechoic response is down about 6 dB at 26-27 Hz, but the roll off rate is still shallow until below 22 or so. In room, with correct positioning, they could be flat to 26 Hz, and only down about 3 dB at 20 Hz. This is at 114 dB output from each cabinet at 1 meter, with 200 watts @ 8 ohms. :T OK, so it's not a Tumult killer... ;x( But, BTW, this output level is below both the Xmax limits and the port velocity limits of the drivers- there's another 2 dB in reserve! :W


                  But the efficiency is about right for converting the X1 klones to a passive crossover, especially if I go with HiVi D6.8's to replace the Eton 7's. Then, I could use the classic Wilson audio crossover response for the bass to midwoofers, with the bass bain providing the baffle step comp with the gradual 4-1/2 to 5 dB roll off above 150 Hz to 800 Hz, then rolling out more steeply above that point. Thing is, these appear to be plenty clean up to 2 kHz, so they shouldn't contribute any nasties. Pretty amazing that the first serious impedance glitch is up at 2 kHz for a 12.

                  Until I get some other projects out of the way, this will just be a "speculation and calculation" type project, something to while away the miles on the train going home from work.

                  Gotta veneer those M8ta's, and I'm finalizing the plans to build my first RD50 plus 6-1/2 array test cabinet. Plus a small sub test cabinet.

                  And hearing Sigfried's Orions gave me another kick in the butt to get to work on the Arvo's- which ThomasW, as he's about 2 weeks away from finishing his remodling project, will undoubtedly follow up on!

                  Yeah, I need to get out more, but I'm wondering if it's going to happen this summer.... at least the back has been coping great with the work, even moving out some tower speakers for my daughter, which she's taking over to her mom's, since that's almost ready for her to setup again.

                  ~Jon




                  Earth First!
                  _______________________________
                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15311

                    #10
                    I did fire off an inquiry to PE Sales today, to find out if they have any plans to carry this driver. I leaned a little on the fact that I've bought quite a few HiVi drivers from them to date, and that a three part article on a two way using the M8a is in the final editing stages for publication at AudioXpress (just finishing up the last updates with their editor, has to go back to them by June 11).

                    I sure hope they decide to carry this one...

                    Darren from PE responded, and even he was caught by surprise with the M12- he will follow up and hopes that they may have these to offer in a few months.

                    A more immediate new addition will be the M8n, a stamped frame version of the M8a, with very similar performance, which will probably be available within a month.


                    Regards,

                    Jon

                    Jon




                    Earth First!
                    _______________________________
                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15311

                      #11
                      Well, the "back of the napkin" calculations are complete (using Unibox, BDS, and LSPCAD, of course- I have a "digital napkin" :W and it looks very promising for an X1 UPGRADE in performance in an smaller box, actually.

                      The way it works out, with dual M12's in each 120 liter bass cabinet, I can tune the system to 22 Hz with a six inch downward firing port existing in the plinth area, which is elevated by spikes anyway. Each cabinet would be capable of 110 dB anechoiclly down to 20 Hz, and that's only using 5 mm of the available 7.3 mm Xmax. LF sensitivity is nominal 93 dB for the two drivers wired in series, but that's half pi; once you factor in baffle step, interface with the upper module, room gain, etc, the net broadband system sensitivity would come in somewhere around 89 (pessimistic estimate) to 91 (optomistic) dB. Let's call it 90. Now, most single high performance drivers do 89-90 dB, but by the time you put in the baffle step you need for a 6" driver in a small box, the real world sensitivity is about 85 dB. Some systems, like those using Excel drivers with BS comp, get as low as 83-82 dB, depending on crossover insertion loss (Joeseph Audio RM33si, for example).

                      So, a reasonable 90 dB broadband should be pretty fair- especially since the speaker will be an 8 ohm load, SB easy to drive. 32 watts for 105 dB at 1 meter, 125 watts for 110 dB at one meter. Well within an Ayre V5's envelope.

                      Still considering midbass options, including just a new crossover arrangement with the Eton's wired in series, and the elliptical crossover at 1.5 kHz. Also considering other 7" midwoofers that will fit the form factor, such as HiVi D6 or D6.8, and M6a, and Excel 7" woofers (expensive). Problem with some drivers is rear window. Could require some driver hole relief. Have figured out how to do that.

                      Maybe by Christmas time- this is a backburner project. Finishing M8ta's, Arvo for ThomasW, and monolith lines are all higher priority. Gives me time to ponder my design options on the train home. :banana:

                      Also gives me time to wait for availability of drivers...

                      -Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • Beau
                        Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 74

                        #12
                        Jon, trolling through this old thread was making me wonder, in a cab half that size, say 60L ported, what sort of output could you expect with a single driver? Would it mean simply using one port instead of two?

                        Comment

                        • ThomasW
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 10933

                          #13
                          Virtually any of the box modeling programs will give you an anechoic sim of the output for a given power level.

                          One 4" flared port would be adequate.

                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                          Comment

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