Help Me Choose a Design

[dsfoster]

Hello all, Been reading for quite a while and I am just about ready to buy some parts. I need a hand picking out the right design for me. 80/20 HT/Music (variety, Rock, Bluegrass, Electronica). I'd like to spend around $600 for LCR. Currently I am using Klipsch F-1 and C-3, which are ok for what I paid, but still on the puny side. Using an SVS PB12-NSD, which I like, but plan to build 2 in the future. From what I've seen it looks like that Natalie P's would be good for me, any other recommendations? I can stretch my budget for say Khanspire's and wait on building a center if you think it's a good idea. I do like towers. Thanks!

[mischmat]

Wouldn't that price range put him right about where the mini-statements are? The review are great, I'm in the midst of sourcing the parts for the build myself

[john trials]

Wouldn't that price range put him right about where the mini-statements are? The review are great, I'm in the midst of sourcing the parts for the build myself

Not if he wants the CC also. They would be nice, though! It depends on room placement, too.

[dsfoster]

Room layout is another issue all together, I'd love to have a dedicated HT room, but alas, this is what I have to work with for now. Its a pretty open room, flowing into dining room, etc. I'd call it medium if it were closed off, large the way it's layed out now, and unfortunately there is no other way to arrange it.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

ZDT3.5 Towers left and right and ZDTC for Center is my vote and will be about right for $600 budget for all(speakers/crossovers/ports). Other designs are significantly more expensive and most don't have a center channel option.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html

[dsfoster]

I've been eyeing those quite a bit, but it seems like there is more love for khans and nat p's. I haven't heard any of these am hoping that someone can offer suggestions based on listening experiences, and what would sound best for my room and purpose. If you still vote for the 3.5's that's cool too, but budget is semi flexable, I want to be happy with these and if it's going to cost me a little more to do that, i'm fine with that as well.

[---k---]

Zaph's designs are always solid. I heard the ZDT at Iowa. There are also his new ZA kits (I'm slowly working on the MTM). I think Zaph doesn't gets as much love around here as the NatP's and Khans, because CJD, JonMarsh and I hang out here more than Zaph. And we're obviously big pimps of our own designs.

I do think the Khans are a great speaker, but there are other good options. You don't have to stretch your budget or sacrifice to get a good, solid system.

It is always hard to pick speakers for other people. There are so many options and reasons for each.

If you want to run them sometimes full range without a sub, then I would look at the three way options. Such as the ZDT. I would also think about bigger 2-ways, like the NatP. The Statements are great, but you will need to pull them farther out from the wall than you show. You could also be the first to build the In-Khan-Neatos as free standing speakers.

If you're always going to have a sub and want to go easy on your budget, I might suggest waiting about 1 month until CJD and I post the crossovers for the Ochocincos from the Sietecerocero project. I think they will be a very high performance per $$ speaker. They will also be designed for up close to the wall like you have. The only downside will be that you will need a good sub for with them.

Curt C. should also have his crossover posted soon for his AviaTriTrix. This should be a good option too, but I'm not sure if he is going to post an option for placement close to the wall.

In the end, a dart board is a good solution to making a decision. The amp/receiver you plan to use might also factor in. Some of these designs might stress a low end receiver into protection with 5 channels driven.

[oneplustwo]

I'm in the process of building the ZDT's myself and chose them at least in part because I was hoping to avoid requiring a sub. That being said, I'm not a bass head and most of my critical listening is music as opposed to HT. If a sub was part of the equation, I probably would have went with one of the ZA5 designs. I just built the center channel for a friend and was very happy with the result. That plus just about any of the L/R pairs would fit your budget. My 2 cents.

[dsfoster]

I can pull the speakers from the wall about 12-16" max, I just wasn't very accurate on the sketchup . I'm running a Denon AVR-790, which is the same as a 1910. I will always have a sub. I love that the NatP, Statement, and Khans are extremely well documented here and several folks have made them so help is abundant. I think the statements are probably a little overboard and probably the Khans as well, although they are quite sexy. What do you all think of the NatP's? Do you think they are too small for my room? Do you think the Denon790 is good enough for Khans? I'm a person who would rather spend a little more to do it right, so, what say you? Also, thank you for all the responses and kindness!

[dsfoster]

Too many, too few budget and time! NatP, In Kahn Neatos, Mini Statements, Khans oh my!

[dsfoster]

Ok, I'm thinking NatP, I could get close to making a full set for my budget and they should be a huge increase in performance over my Klipsch. Any last thoughts or words of encouragement or discouragement?

[fbov]

Yes.

You can't go wrong with any of these options, but you know that. Let me add one more thing for you to consider - flexibility.

I made NatPs, 2 vented towers and a sealed sideways CC. (The one advantage of Zaph's design is the 3-way CC, but hear me out.) In doing so, I tried 3 different crossover designs out of at least 6 I'm aware of for the RS180/RS28 MTM. I ended up with NatP stand alone in the towers and NatP on-wall/in-wall for the CC.

In your case, your room layout is such that mains spaced out from the wall far enough to sound good are going to intrude into traffic patterns and get moved out of the way. Using the on-wall/in-wall XO design, you could put them out of harms way without compromising the sound. Granted in-wall is preferred, but some tradeoffs are required.

In my case, I tried base, on-wall, and Roman Bednarek's 2.5-way XOs, the last to address the sideways MTM lobing issue. I'm still trying to hear lobing; the 2.5-way was a standalone design and the added bass in my CC application led me to the on-wall design there. (Granted, I did not give the 2.5-way a proper tryout, but I was problem solving...)

The only warning is that you can get sucked in by this hobby, like any other, and end up posting on forums and making speakers for no particular reason....

Have fun,
Frank

[cmayer]

4 ohm designs are likely a no-go due to your receiver. I'm in the same boat, as I have a 2310. Probably have to go to the $2k+ range with Denon to get that. The 3310 has issues with 4 ohm, but at least it has pre-outs.

From what I've gathered, this isn't a Denon-only thing, it's a general trend with the amps in many newer A/V receivers. I mean, go back a decade and a $300 receiver would be fine...these days not many under $1k would be :/

[dsfoster]

The more I read, the more I'm starting to like the in wall design, particularly the Khan's for some added bass. Gotta check WAF before cutting up the wall though .

[dsfoster]

Should I slap on an Emotiva Amp before I start on speakers then?

[---k---]

Probably. But, usually most amps will just shut down into protection mode if you're overdriving them. If that happens, then you can buy an amp. If it doesn't and you're happy, well I guess you saved a few $$ that can be spent on a 2nd sub.
(That may be an overly broad claim. Someone on PE was claiming that their 4 ohm speakers damaged their HK receiver and it was now dead.)

Though again, if you don't want to add an amp, consider the Ochocincos or the AviaTriTrix. They should be very competitive designs. I'm very much looking forward in a few weeks to directly comparing them to CJD's RS150 MTM and the Khans.

[dsfoster]

The Ochos are a little less than I wanted I think. I'm leaning toward the NatP's, there is alot of love for them, plus I can build a set for my budget. Do you think my Denon will have a problem driving them? Do you recommend the UPA 5 or should I go ahead and get a 7? Thanks again!

[cmayer]

Your receiver, like mine, lacks preouts other than a stereo zone 2 preout. Can't just add an amp.

Personally, I was figuring on building NatPs as well, but now I'm waiting on the above designs.

[dsfoster]

well balls, i could have sworn it had pre outs

[dsfoster]

are the ZA5 kits from madisound any good? would they offer improvement over my Klipsch?

[penngray]

4 ohm designs are likely a no-go due to your receiver. I'm in the same boat, as I have a 2310. Probably have to go to the $2k+ range with Denon to get that. The 3310 has issues with 4 ohm, but at least it has pre-outs.

From what I've gathered, this isn't a Denon-only thing, it's a general trend with the amps in many newer A/V receivers. I mean, go back a decade and a $300 receiver would be fine...these days not many under $1k would be :/

The Denon 2809 (if you can find one) is a great choice, its better then the 2310 and it has pre-outs.

[SpeakerGuy]

Ok, I'm thinking NatP..

Read this page RE Nat P etc., it's one of the most in-depth analysis of an established DIY speaker design with objective measurements that I've ever seen done :

http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html

EDIT: removed link, sorry - I googled and found why that was a nono.

[---k---]

Read this page RE Nat P etc.:

http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html

Also recommend this webpage:

http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/

Not sure your point with link to Roman's page. I think it is an opinion, not definitive. Results at DIY get togethers has proven the NatP to be very strong.

Second link breaks Forum Rule #3.

[SpeakerGuy]

Not sure your point with link to Roman's page. I think it is an opinion, not definitive. Results at DIY get togethers has proven the NatP to be very strong.

Surely anybody considering a particular established design as one of their first adventures into DIY audio would be delighted to find such an analysis with objective measurements in addition to further subjective opinions and discussion regarding the project they're considering?

Second link breaks Forum Rule #3.

Excuse me? Rule #3 is no profanity.

Forum Posting Rules

[fbov]

... I'm leaning toward the NatP's, there is alot of love for them, plus I can build a set for my budget. Do you think my Denon will have a problem driving them? ...

How your amp reacts will depend on what you ask of it. My NatP LCR set is run by a late-90's Pioneer surround receiver I got a BJ's for ~$100. 70 W/ch and not 4-ohm rated, but I don't ask it to run as loud as some folks might so I've never had a problem. (In some ways, I wish it would have a problem, a big problem....)

That said, it's replacement will be 4-ohm rated...

Re: sound quality, I took my towers to Dayton DIY last year and they came in 2nd to a 4-way cosmetic tour de force that used older driver designs and didn't sound near as good at normal sound levels. If you like directed sound these are a very good choice at ~$200 in parts each.

As always, YMMV,
Frank

[---k---]

Excuse me? Rule #3 is no profanity.

Forum Posting Rules

I don't think the internet is capturing your tone correctly. That or the curmudgeon in me is coming out.

Please see this post. It's exclusive to this sub-forum.

http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28354

No further replies to me necessarily.