Reference quality DIY Speaker Recommendation

[Jed]

Well said, Jon. I might add that there certainly is a point of diminishing returns when upgrading one's own system and many will pay big dollars to get that last bit of detail. The thing that I like so much about this forum, including contributors like yourself, is that the more costly components (whether they are drivers, cables, or source components) are evaluated with ACTUAL data and listening not just hype. For example, not all Accuton drivers are created equal and the testing shows that clearly. So while a driver might cost $500, if there is no supporting evidence that effective technology was put into the driver to improve the driver's performance over one that costs $100, then the test results more than likely will show the truth.

Some like to think that because it is expensive then it must be appropriately engineered, but what I and most others on this forum have found, is that in order for a system to have synergy, the sum of the parts need to be considered, and the task of evaluating that is much easier than one might expect if he/she knows what to look for in the specs and testing. I do believe in a certain magical synergy when experiencing something new in a given combination of drivers and source components, but when it really comes down to it, there are a several scientific reasons why it works, and the subjective component is often connected to tangible data. In the end it sounds good too.

Just my 2 cents.

Jed

[jweb09]

I was looking at Tony Gee's design and some of them look wilsonesque...needless to say very impressive to look at and read...

has anyone tried any of his simpler designs with high-end drivers...by simple I mean a straight boxy cabinet

[dlneubec]

Well said, Jon. I might add that there certainly is a point of diminishing returns when upgrading one's own system and many will pay big dollars to get that last bit of detail. The thing that I like so much about this forum, including contributors like yourself, is that the more costly components (whether they are drivers, cables, or source components) are evaluated with ACTUAL data and listening not just hype. For example, not all Accuton drivers are created equal and the testing shows that clearly. So while a driver might cost $500, if there is no supporting evidence that effective technology was put into the driver to improve the driver's performance over one that costs $100, then the test results more than likely will show the truth.

Some like to think that because it is expensive then it must be appropriately engineered, but what I and most others on this forum have found, is that in order for a system to have synergy, the sum of the parts need to be considered, and the task of evaluating that is much easier than one might expect if he/she knows what to look for in the specs and testing. I do believe in a certain magical synergy when experiencing something new in a given combination of drivers and source components, but when it really comes down to it, there are a several scientific reasons why it works, and the subjective component is often connected to tangible data. In the end it sounds good too.

Just my 2 cents.

Jed

Here is an example of where you don't get what you pay for. This kind of activity really gives one cause to doubt many of the high end claims.
Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside

Then there is this article by Jim Salk, who certainly has no reason not to support higher cost components:http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=14

[villastrangiato]

Here is an example of where you don't get what you pay for. This kind of activity really gives one cause to doubt many of the high end claims.
Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside

Then there is this article by Jim Salk, who certainly has no reason not to support higher cost components:http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=14

Excellent post Dan. I think we should not neglect to mention that room acoustics is the big white elephant in the room. Right now, I have a pair of speakers and electronics sitting in a spare room that collectively cost in excess of 15K. And I refuse to listen to them in that room versus the much less expensive Yamaha 900 watt 7.1 system with a menial Def Tech sub and Mirage satellites in my living room. Why - because the room with the big expensive speakers and electronics consists of hardwood floors and sheet rock sidewalls close to both speakers. The expensive CD transport, turntable, speakers, preamp, and amp can't make up for the echo chamber. So before anyone looks too deeply at acquiring their target reference system, they should be encouraged to closely examine the acoustics of the room in which said expensive equipment will be used. A few dollars spent improving a room's acoustics can do actually more to improve what one hears than a pair of one hundred thousand dollar speaker cables.

[JonMarsh]

Here is an example of where you don't get what you pay for. This kind of activity really gives one cause to doubt many of the high end claims.
Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside

Then there is this article by Jim Salk, who certainly has no reason not to support higher cost components:http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=14

Dan, this is one case where I really have to ask, what does a re-badged Oppo Blu ray player have to do with the discussion above? Lexicon has a long and checkered history of OEM'ing other peoples products. slapping their own front panel and logo on it, and charging double. And they're not the first in the industry to do that.

Now, if you want to discuss a real high end modification of the Oppo player, something that goes beyond just the label on the front panel, you might look at what Ayre Acoustics does with an Oppo player- cite that as a "high end excess" instead of a BS company like Lexicon.

To make it an Ayre, we dismantle it completely and recycle everything except the main PCB (with the video decoder, ABT scaler chip, and HDMI transmitter), the transport mechanism, the VFD display, and the remote control handset.

Next we re-build the main PCB. The big switching power supply only provides 5 VDC, then there are little mini-switching power supplies (called DC-DC converters) on the main PCB that turn the 5 VDC into 1.0 VDC, 1.1 VDC, 1.8 VDC, and 3.3 VDC. All of those are removed. There are also USB power switches that allow hot-plugging of USB devices. These are removed as they have another kind of DC-DC converter called a "charge pump".

All of the supplies are replaced with pure linear supplies with analog regulators. The USB power switches are replaced with devices without the charge pumps. Now we have gotten rid of seven noise sources that create high-frequency square waves with harmonics well out into the MHz region. Getting rid of all of that noise creates a visibly cleaner picture.

Next, we replace the low-quality master video clock with a VCXO. This becomes more important later on, as you will see.

Now we start adding things back in. First is our AyreLink communication system. It allows AyreLink equipped components to act as one big system. For example, turning on the player will turn on all of the downstream components as well as automatically select the correct input on the preamp. We also make an external RS-232 to AyreLink converter box for system controllers like Crestrons. The AyreLink system has opto-isolators between each component to avoid unwanted ground loops, which is why we don't use RS-232 inputs on any of our equipment.

Then we add a custom programmed FPGA on the front panel PCB to do some housekeeping. It intercepts the appropriate commands and translates them to operate the AyreLink system. It disables the internal volume control (which operates in the digital domain and degrades the sound) and instead routes the volume changes to an AyreLink equipped preamp. It also allows us to send custom messages to the front panel VFD display. So when the USB audio input is activated, it will report that on the front panel along with the sample rate of the received signal.

There are a bunch of boards added on the audio side. I say "side" because we literally split the player into two parts. There is a separate power transformer that runs all of the audio circuitry, which is separated from the video side by a bank of opto-isolators. So the audio and video "sides" have separate grounds that are completely galvanically isolated. This is the only way to get the best performance from either your audio system or your video system.

All video displays have switching power supplies that dump noise into your system in the absence of such isolation. There are also ground loops that are inevitably formed as there is no such thing as a balanced video connection. All of those problems go away with our isolation system.

The ten-channel audio board is replaced by a two-channel audio board. Everything on this board is top-quality, with discrete, fully balanced, zero-feedback audio circuitry and discrete, zero-feedback power supply regulators. There are improvements in both the parts quality and circuit design that give it even higher performance than the QB-9 USB DAC that was recently rated "Class A+" in Stereophile's recommended components issue. For two-channel disc playback (CD, SACD, DVD-Audio), the performance exceeds our $6,000 audio-only disc player.

We also add the USB audio input that allows you to connect your personal computer and turn your system into a music server. Your entire digital library (except SACD's, thank you very much Sony -- not!) can be stored on a hard drive and played back with the click of a mouse. So this one component can be the only source component that you need. This input is also connected via a bank of opto-isolators, so there is actually a *third* "side" to the system -- the video, the audio, and the computer. The noise from your computer and its switching power supply will not be connected to either your video or audio systems.

We also add a second audio-only HDMI connector. This is fed by the isolated signals on the audio "side" so that it won't contaminate your surround-sound system if you choose to connect one. It also supports the new "Audio Rate Control" (ARC) feature that is part of the HDMI 1.3a specifcation. This is a breakthrough for the surround-sound enthusiast, as HDMI is normally the worst way in the world to send audio data -- the jitter is even worse than the lowly S/PDIF connection.

But with ARC, the surround-sound processor uses a local crystal oscillator to provide a low-jitter clock to the DAC chips. Then there is a buffer that stores the incoming audio data. When the buffer is too full it sends a signal back upstream to the Blu-Ray player telling it to slow down the disc slightly. When the buffer is too empty, it asks the disc to speed up slightly. Now the audio clock is in charge, the way that it should be. (When the unit is running in two-channel mode, the local low-jitter, fixed-frequency crystal oscillator provides the master audio clock.)

With a modern digital display (plasma, LCD, LCOS, DLP, et cetera) jitter on the video signal does not matter. Since there is no conversion to analog, the digital signal values are simply stored in a frame buffer until needed.

Then the whole thing is put into a custom chassis made entirely from anodized aluminum and stainless steel. We want our products to look just as good 50 years from now as they do today. There are other people making Oppo "clones". One of them only replaces the chassis. Another replaces the power supply also. Nobody is rebuilding the complete player and adding the extra features and advanced technology that Ayre is.

As far as the value, it is up to you to determine that. I can't tell you how much an improved picture is worth. I can't tell you how much better sound is worth. I can't tell you how much the features we add are worth. You will have to decide that for yourself.

What I can tell you is that, just like all of our other products, they offer engineering and performance beyond what anyone else is offering, at a fair price that reflects our cost of manufacturing, and that we back up our products with both a strong network of the finest dealers on the planet and an incredible service policy.

Unlike other manufacturers that try to sell you a "new and improved" product every year or two, when we figure out a way to genuinely improve the performance of our existing products, we offer upgrades to current owners at very reasonable prices. Go to the Audio Asylum and check out some comments regarding our recent "MP" upgrades to the C-5xe and CX-7e disc players, for example.

If you want a great Blu-Ray player for an incredible price, buy the Oppo. If you want the best picture and sound quality in the world for your home theater and price is not a concern, check out the Ayre. And no, it will not be available in November, sorry. Early next year will be a better guess.

I've quoted Charles once before on HT Guide when this discussion came up.

In the interests of full disclosure, I must reveal that I do have a relationship of sorts with Ayre, as the founder Charles Hansen used to work for me when he was a physics student in Boulder, and I was director of engineering for a small pro sound outfit. Since then we've had a number of discussions and consultations on design topics, and at one point I almost quit my job with my still current company to go back to Boulder to join them. With what the economy did the following year, it was all for the better than I didn't! I do have some of their products, bought and paid like everyone else does. They have a good reputation in the business for both the performance of the products and their customer service.

With regards to Jim Salk, I admire the way he runs his business and his personal integrity, and always drop by their room every visit to RMAF, but I was especially disappointed in the sound at their room this year compared with years past and with competitors. I'd suggest he go listen to the Bamberg audio speakers, another guy coming up from the ranks of DIY, demo'd with Modwright Electronics. It might be an eye opener.

The thing is, Dan, this isn't religion. I'm not an Islamic fanatic, I don't care what you listen to at home, or anyone else on the forum. On some forums, there are a lot of strong statements made by people who obviously do enjoy putting down things they possibly mistrust, and also have no direct experience of. If I suggest something is good and worth listening to if a person has certain performance targets in mind, it's because I've got some substantial experience with the product and probably own it, too, or have listened to it for tens of hours at the very least.

For example, someone can say Accuton diamond tweeters are over priced, and I'll agree. Someone can say Accuton diamond tweeters don't sound any better than the ones usually used in DIY projects, and then I'll have to disagree, based on having listened to well engineered systems with them, as well as a lot of different systems using the "popular" DIY tweeters.

I hope you see my point- criticize fairly that which you have experience of. Jim Salk may conclude in his own mind that there's no point to higher priced caps in a speaker crossover- and given the performance of many higher priced caps, I can certainly understand why. High price is no guarantee of good engineering or performance.

But independent university research using sound experimental practices has not only proven their are clear subjective issues with standard film caps, but also developed a testing methodology to identify the issues and correlate them with manufacturing techniques and materials. Now, that may not be science in some quarters, but it certainly is engineering. Regardless, there are products of that nature which may be too expensive for DIY constructors to consider, and that's a valid value judgement- for EACH constructor to make for themselves- but not a valid statement to make for others necessarily, especially if they haven't evaluated the components being discussed.

If I diss Audioquest cables, and recommend Cardas, it's because I've listened hundreds or thousands of hours to both, and have owned or do own both, for example. And my subjective value judgements about their performance relative to Monster cable or to Radio Shack cables is just that- my subjective opinion based on listening. Usually very long term listening.

So when someone comes on the board and describes what they're looking for in the subjective listening experience, and I have some knowledge of some of the issues it takes to get there, particularly when those issues are not usually discussed on DIY sites and rarely addressed in DIY designs, well, I think it's just good manners to try to steer him in the right direction- at least, the closes thing to the right direction that I know of from my 40 years of experience in this area.

By all means, if you have suggestions for a total system and speakers that you think will address his desires and requirements, I'm sure he would welcome any specific suggestions you want to make, and would enjoy discussing them with you and your perceptions, and how you came about those judgements based on your personal experience.

We would like to think this is all a science of sorts, what we do, and perhaps it is more of one than say, psychology (where my formal education lies), but without doubt, there is art and artifice involved in the practice of music reproduction in the industry, as well as by the individuals participating on the various forums.

On these forums, we should be able to agree to disagree and develop our skills and designs individually and in concert with each other to the best of our ability. That's what we'd like to be dedicated to here at HT Guide, rather than hosting pages of derogatory comments about audio magazines written about people you've never met or had a conversation with.

[jweb09]

I am probably the junior most guy on the forum and do not want to interject in the middle of a conversation but I would appreciate if we can leave the subject of electronics out of this and come back to speakers

As I was asking earlier, I was looking at Tony Gee's design and some of them look wilsonesque...has anyone tried any of his simpler designs with high-end drivers...

[JonMarsh]

With your stated objective, as I quoted above, you really can't leave out the subject of electronics if that's what you want to achieve. But no problem if you don't want to discuss it here.

For example, even a recent small two way system I designed has much different properties with regards to the qualities you say you seek played on my electronics at home, compared with the recipient's Technics Receiver and CD player. Much different results.

The same is true even when raising the speaker bar much further.

That said, I'm not here to hound you or anyone else on that topic, so I'll just wish you the best in your search, and bow out of this thread.

[villastrangiato]

Just curious, do you have enough space to handle a tall ribbon driver? Granted, they can range in height from a foot or so to five feet - but they are not very wide or deep. The Accuton drivers you're looking at are quite expensive and given the midrange driver's breakup - for the money, if you can deal with the dimensions, the BG Radia ribbons would seem to offer more flexibility and value. If you can accommodate them in your environment, they are definitely worth checking out. My only reservation about the Avalon clones you mention is the limitation in bass dynamics if you're sticking with their C220 -t6 woofer. For the money, a couple of Seas or ScanSpeak units might offer more dynamic capability and potentially cleaner output down low. I think Jon's Avalon clone doesn't use the Accuton bass unit - that should tell you something.

If the speaker you're referring to is the one I'm thinking of, looks aside, I don't think it has Wilsonesque performance. Wilson speakers are known for being "forward' and having very robust dynamics at all frequencies - particularly the low ones.

[ThomasW]

I don't recall anyone posting here having built any of Tony's designs.

I do recall a couple posts from people having heard one or two of the designs. Problem was they were not impressed with the sound quality

[jweb09]

Jon,
It will be sad if you bow out of this thread. I by no mean wanted to suggest that electronics are not important. I just Ayre QB9 and it was one of the biggest upgrades I made to my system. Similarly I have Ayre V5X and I love every bit of it.

All I was suggesting was debate on how important electronics are can be so lengthy, that it is better handled else where. But I agree with you if there was a thread on how to get the best sound, you have to bring electronics into the picture.

Right now I am only trying to figure out how to get the best speakers within the size constraints that I have.

[jweb09]

I am so intrigued by Jon's Avalon clone aka Ardent that I can't wait for PDF to come up.

Jon, any ETA on this?

[jweb09]

any idea why this thread got moved?

[ThomasW]

I am so intrigued by Jon's Avalon clone aka Ardent that I can't wait for PDF to come up.

Jon, any ETA on this?

Given Jon's workload, travel schedule, and the number of DIY projects under development, I doubt that a pdf will be available before late March.

any idea why this thread got moved?

I moved it to where threads belong that aren't directly involved with the actual construction of a specific project.

[dlneubec]

Dan, this is one case where I really have to ask, what does a re-badged Oppo Blu ray player have to do with the discussion above? Lexicon has a long and checkered history of OEM'ing other peoples products. slapping their own front panel and logo on it, and charging double. And they're not the first in the industry to do that.

Now, if you want to discuss a real high end modification of the Oppo player, something that goes beyond just the label on the front panel, you might look at what Ayre Acoustics does with an Oppo player- cite that as a "high end excess" instead of a BS company like Lexicon.



I've quoted Charles once before on HT Guide when this discussion came up.

In the interests of full disclosure, I must reveal that I do have a relationship of sorts with Ayre, as the founder Charles Hansen used to work for me when he was a physics student in Boulder, and I was director of engineering for a small pro sound outfit. Since then we've had a number of discussions and consultations on design topics, and at one point I almost quit my job with my still current company to go back to Boulder to join them. With what the economy did the following year, it was all for the better than I didn't! I do have some of their products, bought and paid like everyone else does. They have a good reputation in the business for both the performance of the products and their customer service.

With regards to Jim Salk, I admire the way he runs his business and his personal integrity, and always drop by their room every visit to RMAF, but I was especially disappointed in the sound at their room this year compared with years past and with competitors. I'd suggest he go listen to the Bamberg audio speakers, another guy coming up from the ranks of DIY, demo'd with Modwright Electronics. It might be an eye opener.

The thing is, Dan, this isn't religion. I'm not an Islamic fanatic, I don't care what you listen to at home, or anyone else on the forum. On some forums, there are a lot of strong statements made by people who obviously do enjoy putting down things they possibly mistrust, and also have no direct experience of. If I suggest something is good and worth listening to if a person has certain performance targets in mind, it's because I've got some substantial experience with the product and probably own it, too, or have listened to it for tens of hours at the very least.

For example, someone can say Accuton diamond tweeters are over priced, and I'll agree. Someone can say Accuton diamond tweeters don't sound any better than the ones usually used in DIY projects, and then I'll have to disagree, based on having listened to well engineered systems with them, as well as a lot of different systems using the "popular" DIY tweeters.

I hope you see my point- criticize fairly that which you have experience of. Jim Salk may conclude in his own mind that there's no point to higher priced caps in a speaker crossover- and given the performance of many higher priced caps, I can certainly understand why. High price is no guarantee of good engineering or performance.

But independent university research using sound experimental practices has not only proven their are clear subjective issues with standard film caps, but also developed a testing methodology to identify the issues and correlate them with manufacturing techniques and materials. Now, that may not be science in some quarters, but it certainly is engineering. Regardless, there are products of that nature which may be too expensive for DIY constructors to consider, and that's a valid value judgement- for EACH constructor to make for themselves- but not a valid statement to make for others necessarily, especially if they haven't evaluated the components being discussed.

If I diss Audioquest cables, and recommend Cardas, it's because I've listened hundreds or thousands of hours to both, and have owned or do own both, for example. And my subjective value judgements about their performance relative to Monster cable or to Radio Shack cables is just that- my subjective opinion based on listening. Usually very long term listening.

So when someone comes on the board and describes what they're looking for in the subjective listening experience, and I have some knowledge of some of the issues it takes to get there, particularly when those issues are not usually discussed on DIY sites and rarely addressed in DIY designs, well, I think it's just good manners to try to steer him in the right direction- at least, the closes thing to the right direction that I know of from my 40 years of experience in this area.

By all means, if you have suggestions for a total system and speakers that you think will address his desires and requirements, I'm sure he would welcome any specific suggestions you want to make, and would enjoy discussing them with you and your perceptions, and how you came about those judgements based on your personal experience.

We would like to think this is all a science of sorts, what we do, and perhaps it is more of one than say, psychology (where my formal education lies), but without doubt, there is art and artifice involved in the practice of music reproduction in the industry, as well as by the individuals participating on the various forums.

On these forums, we should be able to agree to disagree and develop our skills and designs individually and in concert with each other to the best of our ability. That's what we'd like to be dedicated to here at HT Guide, rather than hosting pages of derogatory comments about audio magazines written about people you've never met or had a conversation with.

Jon,

If this was all pointed at me, I have to say I'm a bit confused. I made no derogatory comments about anyone or audio magazines, etc., I simply pointed out one example of not getting what you pay for and pointed to the opinion of someone I respect, who probably has every reason to support high end components. There is certainly a lot of excellent high end equipment available, but unfortunately, there are also a lot of "Lexicon's" out there. There was a thread on this over at PE and several folks actually defended Lexicon's activity with this OPPO rebadge and felt they were a very good high end company. Lexicon's activity here simply adds fuel to the fire that some folks have with regard to overpriced high end gear and I'd say rightly so, in this case.

For example, I agree with CJD's opinion and I think you might agree aslo, that many of the speaker designs on this forum could hold up very well against commercial offerings many, many times the $ invested. I would also add that I don't personally believe that you have to use $200 plus drivers to get there. I think your recent experience with the Scanspeak D2608/9130 is a case in point, an $80 tweeter that competes at just about any price level. I have been to probably 15+ DIY events in the last 4 years and I have not found that higher end drivers, or crossover parts, for that matter, have necessarily yeilded a better "system". I do think they offer the potential to do so, but often other things, such as signal chain, like you suggest, or room acoustics, driver-crossover implementation, power response, etc., have a lot more to do with it.

You do have some pretty strong opinions on high end gear, one that is not always shared in the DIY world, as you pointed out yourself. There are some very respected, knowlegable and experienced DIYers out there that would probably differ with you and their experience is valuable as well. You have formed your opinion, quite obviously based on your many years of audio experience, which I do respect greatly. Others have fornmed theirs and I respect that as well. I believe one should weigh a variety of opinions and make up their own mind. I provided a counterpoint opinion to yours, which I believe is always important in any discussion. No harm or insult was intended.

[villastrangiato]

Passion and Disdain

As I've gotten older, music - something that was very central to my life when I was 14 is now at 45 once again taking on central importance to my being. Because the magic of music in all its forms is so important to most of us, we naturally get passionate about how we individually choose to pursue that magic. In looking at the above discourse, I really don't see any reason for folks to feel insulted or "challenged" - let's not confuse our passion for anger or frustration. Everyone here has made some valid points about how the thread starter might be best served in his own quest. Above all, no one should walk away with hard feelings. Life is too short and you're dead a long, long time.

And now, back to speaker building. I am in the process of assembling a multi TL slimline cabinet. If anyone wants to see pics. I'll post some at some point over the next couple of weeks.

[Paul K.]

A couple of days ago I received my March issue of Stereophile and in it Kalman Rubinson ("Music in the Round") reviews and compares the Oppo BDP-83SE and Lexicon BD-30. Kalman quoted a number of statements by Lexicon that described the "differences" between the two plus a rather defensive set of claims from Lexicon on why paying so much more for their version of the Oppo was worth it, many of which had nothing to do with any actual hardware or software change that were made or with the actual performance or sound. Kalman didn't think that most buyers would find the minor improvements cost-effective.
Paul

[synthguy]

This better defines your goals. I understand them and am quite familiar with them... however, speakers of any kind alone won't get you there.

Source equipment is critical, as well as pretty much everything else in the chain.

So, as part of this discussion, it may be helpful to discuss what you use for source and your complete system chain at present, and what updates you're considering, as well as your budget.

I agree with you and Jed wholeheartedly. Now forgive me, guys, while I discuss signal chain for a bit.

I know the whole chain of components matter. I discovered that at Audioport. I had gone on a musical safari in the late 90s to find that "ideal for me" system, and had listened to a number of complete systems running to the cost of a small house. I had to listen critically, because I couldn't afford a Mark Levinson or Krell, but I discovered that you could get a good detailed musical experience with the right stuff at a number of price levels.

I initially settled on an Arcam Delta 290 integrated with its superb turntable preamp, and later on added a Rotel 980BX pre and amp, because with cable the poor Arcam had hum issues. Both of these are amazing values in audiophile gear and are very musical and detailed. At first I used a 16 bit Mission CD player, but eventually came across a used Proceed PDP-11 transport and 18 bit DAC, which amazingly is very hard to better in the ability to make CDs sound analog.

Okay, you diss on Audioquest, but I connect the system with King Cobra interconnects and Granite biwire speaker cable. I considered Cardas - briefly - but the price was just flat out prohibitive. And really, in the $100-200 range, there aren't that many differences among the boutique cables, so between AQ and Tara Labs and others, any of them will pass a very good signal through the system. The other doodads like the cable box, VCR and computer are connected with some Acoustic Research Master Reference stuff which sounds very expensive.

As I say, right now I'm using some $300 AER Pisces II bookshelf monitors as speakers mated with a good HT sub, and they do a very good imitation of $1500 B&W 705s. The living room sounds very good as a music room, which surprises everyone. It almost sounds as good as a dedicated listening room, with just a few low frequency nodes to vex me. Sound comes smack from the center of my TV. As it stands now, my Rotel centered system sounds fantastic. Yes, a Mark Levinson would show its shortcomings, but it really compares well to any other midrange system, and gives me the shivers I experience at a serious boutique music shop.

And this is where Jed's "diminishing returns" remarks are apropos. My TDL monitors are just too darn bright and trebly for rock, which is what I listen to most. They're also a bit more clinical and less musical than the Pisces, which I chalk up to the studio monitor lineage. The Pisces are very musical guys, just showing a bit of fuzz and grit here and there due to the Chinese knock-off heritage, and the midrange is just too forward for rock music. As studio monitors with a bit of EQ taming, they should be excellent. And I did borrow a couple of pricey loaner speakers by Dynaudio and others, and wow, did the system open up! I borrowed some costly cable too, running up to a grand, and while it did make some difference, the biggest improvements were with the speakers.

Maybe the Statement Monitors will give me all I need, but I would like to aim a bit higher. I think the system as it is now should be a solid foundation for a serious speaker. Maybe Zaph's ZRT. Maybe Jed's Minuets or Duets, or your Ardents. And definitely, absolutely with the best components in the crossovers. I'm with you on using Mundorf resistors, and caps by Clarity, Jentzen or even Mundorf's pricey silver caps on tweeters and mids. I went out of my way to buy some Mundorf silver alloy hookup wire. Will it make a diifference? It cooould, and I'd rather aim too high than too low in component quality.

Oh yeah, budget, budget... well, I'll consider Jed's Duet 10s and your Ardents as the high water mark. If anyone thinks the ZRTs or Jed's Minuets will do the job with the ScanSpeak Revelators, just give the word.

After the speakers, if I still feel something lacks, I'll consider going after that $2000 plus Cardas cable. Component wise, what I'd really like to have is a Proceed system, as the baby Levinson stuff performs way beyond its cost. But is it hard to come by, now that it's out of production. Hardly anyone wants to sell theirs, and you have to fight for it.

Just to bolster what you have to say about electronics and even caps, I keep a little tale on hand.

Back in the 70s when the synthesizer market was beginning to take off, everyone loved the Moog instruments. Many players settled on Arp, Oberheim and other synths, but just about everyone wanted some kind of Moog in their arsenal. The synth makers were baffled as to why Moogs sounded like they did, and some like Arp even got in trouble by trying to copy Bob Moog's filter designs. Somehow, they always sounded a little thinner, just a tad bass shy. Well, Bob had a couple of secrets. One was that his oscillators distorted just a bit, I believe from a high signal level, making them sound a little richer in harmonics. But the other is that he insisted on using the best components available, and these resistors and caps ended up being equivalent to what are used in high end stereos today. While other synthesizers had an internal frequency response running between 17-21khz, a Moog went to 40khz and beyond, depending on the instrument.

This is why I insist on the highest grade stuff for my upcoming crossovers, because you're making a filter inside a speaker cabinet. It's also why I sprung for some Clarity ESAs for evilskillit's Waveguides. Will it make a difference? Well, I know it's gonna sound darn good, and I know Bob Moog, God rest his soul, would approve.

[Face]

This is why I insist on the highest grade stuff for my upcoming crossovers, because you're making a filter inside a speaker cabinet. It's also why I sprung for some Clarity ESAs for evilskillit's Waveguides. Will it make a difference? Well, I know it's gonna sound darn good, and I know Bob Moog, God rest his soul, would approve.

Clarity's ESA's are a great bang for the buck. 90% of the quality of TOTL caps for much less.

[jim1274]

This is my first post on this forum, and came across this thread just looking for some info on others feedback on Jed's Clearwave speakers. I recently decided to go with some kits from him, and just want to add that he has provided the most exceptional customer service and responsiveness I have ever experienced. I'm sure there are others offering the same, but I can unreservedly recommend Clearwave from that perspective. I could not be more pleased in my choice of going with him for my first build in 25 years, but do admit the speakers are not built and listened to yet, so can't comment on the performance relative to competitors' offerings. If one is not an experienced speaker designer/builder (like me), Jed offers first class support that is invaluable for the less experienced (me).

[jweb09]

Jim, I agree with you on Jed's responsiveness. I have had few email exchanges with him as well. He is patient, detailed and quick. Wonderful guy to talk to.

While we have had bit of discussion on importance of electronics (or for that matter of fact whole signal chain), what we are really trying to get to is that superlative speaker within a size constraint. We all know last thing this speaker will be is value for money.

Coming to speakers, I want to go with something that has already been built, listened to and has received a legitimate 'wow' feedback. So far primary design I have come across is Jed's symphonic (Accuton 2.5 way). Rick also works regularly with high end parts and his 3 way sounds promising too (a 7 or 8" woofer, accuton mid and RAAL tweeter). I was wondering if anyone has heard a similar 3 way from Rick

Part of me says maybe I should stop chasing the ghost i.e an under 40 liter speaker that has tight and clean bass that goes down to high 30s/low 40s and superlative in every other form (flat FR curve, lowest non-linear distortion etc) In that case Zaph's 2.5 way sealed revelator would be an option as well.

Any other ideas?