Thomas/Jon et al. why don't we see you guys using ribbon tweeters more often in your designs? I saw this one the other day and wondered what it would sound like compared to my XT25.
ribbon tweeters
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Andrew
I think we have covered this before.
Leaf/ribbon/planar tweeters have no vertical dispersion. The sweet spot is basically only as tall as the radiating element is high. So if you don't mind listening with your head in a vice they're great. But if you want vertical dispersion they must be used in a line array
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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I've been hearing good things about those "G" speakers. Latest effort from the Raven designer, built in China. Danny R. has been using them and says he likes them better than the Ravens because they are 8 ohms, shielded and can handle more power.
E-Speakers version
Chinese manufacturer
The model numbers are a bit confusing:
G1 = R3
G2 = R1
G3 = R2- Bottom
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The vertical dispersion doesn't look that bad for the G2.
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Dennis, after all the warnings about *no vertical dispersion* I am frankly surprised at the graph.
BUT, look at the price of those puppies! 8O 2/3 to 3/4 the price of a B-G RD50! My view of DIY is using reasonably priced drivers to get great sound and value (personal opinion only).- Bottom
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Hi Hank,
The G2 is only about 2" long so the vertical dispersion is about like the horizontal dispersion of an RD. Seems like, with ribbons, you have to go really short or really long (line array). The in between lengths are the ones that change sound when you stand up.
About the price, yeah they are spendy. Some people consider the Raven/G series among the best tweeters in the world, just as some consider the RDs among the best midranges in the world. Both are really expensive. Many people would balk at spending $400+ for a midrange, or $200+ for a tweeter, or $500 for a Tumult woofer, and I can certainly understand that point of view. The way I see it, building yourself lets you spend more on the drivers than you could if you had to pay the 5 to 10 times markup of commercial designs so it's about getting the best sound you can for whatever your budget is.- Bottom
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I see your points and a DIY-er can certainly buy expensive drivers and end up with a great system, but I think the Grand Poobahs and others have shown that you can use moderate-priced drivers and with good design, have sound that rivals the expensive drivers/commercial high-end speakers.
About the B-G ribbons - I consider them a midrange/tweeter driver, as some others do. There is debate as to whether a male over the age of 30 can actually hear above 15 or 16 kHz, and since I'm over 50, I probably can't for sure. I think Jon may consider adding a supertweeter to the line source he's planning, but I'm not sure.- Bottom
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Hank,
You heard those tweeters when I was in Austin. I don't know if you remember what they sounded like though.
Brian- Bottom
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Fwiw, the Raven R-1 is on sale at Parts Express for $189. At that price even Hank might splurge on a dozen or so for an array. Click the Parts Express ad at the top of the page, it's the Deal-of-the-Day.
"Hurry, This Deal Expires 02/17/03 At 6:00 PM!"- Bottom
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Brian, yes, I did listen to them in Austin and do remember that they sounded great, but were NOT worth the price delta with a top-quality dome tweet (at least for me at this point). BTW, have you heard the Seas Millenium tweet?
Jack, I like your humor. Yes, a dozen Ravens at $189 each - that's only $2,268. Oh, was that a dozen per side? Then $4,536. That's almost as much as your bi-weekly take-home pay, correct? h:- Bottom
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Of course. In fact, this week I may upgrade my 10-year-old 25" Magnavox and JBL NSP-1 setup with all the cash just laying around.
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The Raven or one of it's newer variants are amazing tweeters. They without doubt define 'state-of-the-art' for high frequency reproduction. This has been true of ribbon tweeters since they were invented, and that was quite sometime ago.
But there are 'off-axis' FR issues that must be understood and lived with. They don't/can't have the dispersion of a dome.
But if one has the $$$$, and the ability to stay in a relatively 'fixed' listening position they are well worth owning.
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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OK, Hank, here's my concept: The ultimate, wretched excess near field monitor for your computer system. It requires a computer table like mine, which has these kind of platform like dealiwops on the side, which the computer speakers sit on (flanking the monitor). My monitor is currently a flatscreen LCD, so magnetic field and shielding is a none issue.
Basic nearfield two way: Seas W18 7" magnesium aluminum cone midwoofer, crossed to either an ESG-3 or Raven 2 at about 2 kHz, fairly high slope crossover, with the usual notch on the Seas peak.
Cabinet designed so that center of ribbon is at center of ear level for someone seated and nominally 6' tall, understanding that my office chair is one of those pneumatic height adjustable with the lever to release pressure and lower the seat; maybe setup for 6" with 2-3 inches of height reduction on chair.
Then, to get a little "omph" in the bottom end, we either cheeze out and get one of the nice little pre-built PE sub cabinet/10" subwoofer with plate amp kits (about $399 altogether, if memory serves me correct), or if we want to go "hardball", take one of my vintage NOS Blueprint 1203's (or the one's available from the liquidators in Nevada) and put them in a teeny box with inch thick walls and drive em' with a Crown K series amp for the bottom end.
Unreal II and NeverWinter Nights should sound lovely.... as well as my ripped CD wave files. (just say NO to MP3's).
Of course, as you'll certainly point out,
THE PARTS WOULD COST MORE THAN MY MODULA 4 LINE ARRAY PROJECT WITH THE RD50's!!!!! 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
But, then, the line arrays wouldn't fit on the computer table, would they? Trade offs, trade offs.... :roll:
Well, you know, now that I think about it, maybe I can get by with those AR Powered Partner 570 speakers (5" woofer, dome tweeter, 35 watts RMS, aluminum cases) a little while longer. :W
-Jon
Earth First!
_______________________________
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Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
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Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Everyone pay attention here! Jon's post should serve as a stern warning to us to ALWAYS read the label directions and cautions on prescription pain medications. :roll:
Jon, I need to send you a couple of BoseBusters for your computer.
BTW, e-mail me your address so I can send you an ASB CD. Keep recuperating so you can get off the pain pills :LOL:- Bottom
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Hey Hank,
Those prescription painkillers are Sooooo good, but you gotta watch out for the half life effects, too! That is, they don't decay in the body right away- some have a "half life" as long as 48 hours.
How else to explain I haven't ingested any since Tuesday last week, but then maybe it's the Tequila you prescribed for me, since the Doc didn't put any limit on how long I could take that, or how much!
-Jon
PS. What's an ASB CD? If it's something you really think I need, I'll send my address. :W
Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Austin Symphonic Band: http://www.asband.org You once asked if we had any CD's.
Tequila is GOOD for you (quality tequila that is; not the stuff in the plastic bottles on the bottom shelf).- Bottom
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Ahhh, THAT ASB CD! Now I remember....
Yeah, my girlfriend is always commenting on how I only drink the expensive Margarita's at the restaurants... that's cause I don't do cheap tequila, either. 8)
-Jon
Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Originally posted by jonmarshAhhh, THAT ASB CD! Now I remember....
Yeah, my girlfriend is always commenting on how I only drink the expensive Margarita's at the restaurants... that's cause I don't do cheap tequila, either. 8)
-Jon
Steve GoffSteve Goff- Bottom
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Now Steve, this isn't forced. Jon actually asked me a while back if my ensemble has CD's available. It won't be much of a dynamic test for his speakers though, since we only have about 85 wind and percussion players in the band :roll: :LOL: :LOL:- Bottom
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Hi Hank,
I don't have access from my phone line connection at home to all my mail folders (particularly arhives) at work.
Can you email me at my home mail, and I'll reply.
Only 85 players? That's hardly bigger than an oversized sized string quartet... :LOL:
jonhancock@sbcglobal.net
Best regards,
Jon
Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....the AudioWorx
Natalie P
M8ta
Modula Neo DCC
Modula MT XE
Modula Xtreme
Isiris
Wavecor Ardent
SMJ
Minerva Monitor
Calliope
Ardent D
In Development...
Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
Obi-Wan
Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
Modula PWB
Calliope CC Supreme
Natalie P Ultra
Natalie P Supreme
Janus BP1 Sub
Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
Just ask Mr. Ohm....- Bottom
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Originally posted by HankNow Steve, this isn't forced. Jon actually asked me a while back if my ensemble has CD's available. It won't be much of a dynamic test for his speakers though, since we only have about 85 wind and percussion players in the band :roll: :LOL: :LOL:
I certainly didn't mean to comment on your group, which I'm sure is quite fine. And I'll even admit to having some LPs of wind ensembles and symphonic bands. But I'll stand by the torture by operetta comment, having sat through too many performances of the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society--a very talented group-- because my sister was the lead soprano in all of their productions. (She is now the director.)
Steve GoffSteve Goff- Bottom
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Hey, check it out guys:
Great stuff...Hanks' da man!
Now if you're all nice I'll post a link to an .mp3 of the last band I was in, some 10 years ago (as soon as I rip it from a video cd, that is)...- Bottom
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All right, you asked for it. This is a really-low-production-value recording ripped from a mono VHS camcorder held in a drunken crowd at Rutgers U. That's me on lead guitar (Gibson SG/Marshall half-stack) and lead "vocals". I kinda like my solo, was mainly off-the-cuff IIRC. Excuse the bad balance and mic overload. It's my own personal "Cavern Club".
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jgilvey/stuff/fortunate_son.mp3- Bottom
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Someone says my name is coming up over here again?
Hey you can't beet that, I guess.
Anyway just a quick note the dispersion issue.
Leaf/ribbon/planar tweeters have no vertical dispersion. The sweet spot is basically only as tall as the radiating element is high.
Actually it is quite the opposite.
The longer the ribbon element is the more limited its vertical dispersion is to the length of the ribbon.
A short ribbon like the G2 will have very good vertical dispersion and good horizontal dispersion too of coarse. The same is true for a Raven R-1.
The taller G-3 and Raven R-2's have a very noticeable limited vertical dispersion.
I longer RD ribbons have next to nothing going on in the high frequency range above and below the height of the ribbon.
Thanks,- Bottom
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Having been quoted in the above post I'll reply.
Looking at the off-axis FR plot posted earlier in this thread and subsequent comments; it appears that 'good' off-axis dispersion, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder (or retailer).
Unlike Mr Richie, I have no vested commercial interest in convincing people as to the advantages of any particular product or design.
Those wishing further comment from Mr Richie are encouraged to contact him at the forum his company operates.
This thread seems to have run it's course......
theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio
IB subwoofer FAQ page
"Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson- Bottom
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