Sort of Compact Line Array

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15209

    Sort of Compact Line Array

    OK guys, I agree to quit hijacking threads like the monopole vs dipole discussion and present my nutball ideas in their own separate playground...


    This thread will document my design efforts and construction for a "compact" (sort of) line array (at some frequencies) speaker system. As presently conceived, it can be assembled in a "modular" fashion, and so I could call it the "Modula IV", as I've done three other systems incorporating line arrays and modular construction... but those will remain deep, dark secrets, shared only with my co-conspirator, ThomasW. Needless to say, we're no stranger to line ribbon arrays, having built some of these even in the mid 80's.

    As described in other threads, this system will use BG RD50 wide range line transducers in concert with a "short" line array of 8 6-1/2" midwoofers on each side.

    The chosen 6-1/2's are MCM cast frame carbon fiber drivers, selected for their combinationn of construction quality, Xmax, and low cost.


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    The monopole ribbon and midwoofer arrays will sit on woofer modules the same 16" wide using BPD1203's for the first pass; this allows a rather small net internal volume (60 liter) with Q under 0.4, and active EQ to control in room response- Xmax is about 1" each way.... with light EQ, in room flat response to 20 Hz is no big deal; compactness is the order of the day. An optimum ported version could play 3-6 dB louder at 20 Hz, but would require a box volume of 100 liters. This veresion is being optimized for minimum size. Crossover to the midwoofer arrays is planned at 75 Hz, using a Sumo Delilah II active crossover. (it was in the goodie box, it's very flexible, and the HP output uses a simple active buffer with no loop feedback...)


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    The upper range portion covered by the RD50 and midwoofer array will be 60" tall, and sit on the 20" high woofer module.

    Yes, I realize that calling something 6'8" tall a "compact speaker system" is something of an oxymoron, but you should have seen the earlier version with a midwoofer array close to flat to 25 Hz and a ported woofer module going down to 15 Hz.... :LOL:

    Maybe for fun I'll prepare concept renderings of that system just for comparison.

    Anyway, here's a rough rendering of what I'm shooting for; maybe rough isn't quite the right idea, since these are based on complete detailed AutoCAD solid model drawings from which I have detailed all the board sections and sizes.


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    Pete's way ahead of me in building and testing hardware, but I'm gathering momentum, and have all the major bits on hand- I'll probably start buying wood this weekend....

    The planned finish is "honey oak", using time tested techniques with Watco oil- and a tip of the hat to Hank for sharing his own version and recommendations with me.

    The crossover for the midwoofers to ribbon will be at ~600Hz, with an external xover box- I may try both conventional 4th order L-R as well as my unpatented HiFinite Slope crossover (developed for the M8), mostly just because the latter puts anything one octave from the nominal crossover frequency about 50 dB down...

    As usual, a lot of the good stuff will be due to recommendations from you guys, and I apologize in advance for the stuff I screw up due to my own lack of judgement!

    Best regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
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    Last edited by theSven; 17 August 2023, 16:00 Thursday. Reason: Update image location
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  • PMazz
    Senior Member
    • May 2001
    • 861

    #2
    Sounds like the wheels are spinnin'.

    No one will ever accuse you of thinking small, that's for sure! Now all we have to do is find you another job that doesn't demand so much of your time.

    BTW, I found a supply of 13 ply baltic birch look-a-like that is selling for .95 cents/sq ft. Cheapest I've ever seen it and 4x8 sheets to boot. The soffit sub has undergone some design changes but I'm picking some up while it's available in preparation for the AV12s.

    Pete
    Birth of a Media Center

    Comment

    • Andrew Pratt
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 16507

      #3
      Looks nice Jon

      Last edited by theSven; 17 August 2023, 16:21 Thursday. Reason: Remove broken signature image link

      Comment

      • Dennis H
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Aug 2002
        • 3791

        #4
        Lookin' good, Jon! A question if I may -- I know you have a "thing" about negative feedback in electronics. What does it do to the signal that you don't like? Is it a phase thing? Be gentle.

        Comment

        • Hank
          Super Senior Member
          • Jul 2002
          • 1345

          #5
          Jon, I believe your Sort Of Compact Line Array At Some Frequencies could remain on the other thread. I started that thread to continue my education in not only line arrays, but also in dipole vs mononpole and successfully steered you to the RD-50's. So, you're building basically what I came to think a high-end (need a better term) sounding system might be: quality wide range ribbon with a stack of mid-woofs, but coupled with exploring the dipole/monopole strengths/weaknesses as a parallel path. If you'd like to make the other thread exclusively for dialogue on the differences between dipole and mononpole, then I understand and will ask related questions on that thread. Okey-dokey?
          Name for your speaker system? how 'bout SOCLASoF? Say it alould a dozen times - it grows on you

          Pete: is your solid-core plywood source a local company?

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15209

            #6
            Hi Dennis,

            The easiest way to describe the core of the of the difference might be comparing the sournd of the Aragon amps I own (and ThomasW does) with the Ayre V5. We've done that comparison for a few friends, but it's a dangerous thing to do- they've all ended up buying Ayre's as a result.

            Comparing the Ayre and the Aragon, it's immediately obvious that there's an element to what most people call "solid state sound" (some edgy, wirey characteristic to the upper frequencies) which is still present in the Aragon, but definitely not present in the Ayre. Even pop and country albums of average quality will show up the difference in HF reproduction- but well recorded jazz and classical emphasize it even more. There is a general difference in how fast transients seem to start and stop, and the "background" noise or grain- the Ayre is essentially grain free, and the music comes out of a dead black background- that's the easiest way for me to describe it. These effects are readily noted on well recorded material- such as Oregon's "Beyon Words" and Ravi Shankar "Tana Mana"- I can identify which amplifier is playing very quickly.


            These comparisons were done in all cases with speakers using the Focal Td120dx2 as the tweeter (my SLAMM's, Tom's Whisper clones). This tweeter imeasures quite well, in smoothness and extension, as well as distortion. Some say it's "harsh", but others say no, it's just revealing- use it with vacuum tube electronics (generally low NFB) to get the best. However, the comparisons are quite valid on my "lowly" little M8's with the relatively "forgiving" Vifa XT-25's also.

            Now, it's arguable that there just may be something "wrong" with the design of the Aragon amps, but we've found them to be comparable to Krell, Bryston, and some other solid state heavies in character and measured performance.

            I have my own "convnetional" NFB design, which is a rather radically optimized front end and a compound MOSFET output stage (it was a contract design done for another company, which I had half a dozen driver boards built), which is quite linear- it's probably a bit less solid state sounding than the Aragon's, but still it's not as grit or glare free as my experimental NFB designs or the Ayre.

            Part of the performance of my current circuits and the Ayre is due, I think, to a configuration we came up with for the emitter follower triple which makes it pretty much impervious to output load capacitance without using a series inductor- this trick drew on my old ham days as a kid, using a circuit technique normally used to stabilize RF amplifiers driving capacitive loads- and that's as much as I'll say about this. Is this also part of why these circuit sound the way they do? Could be- but this output stage technicque won't work well with a typical wide feedback design, either.

            And then on top of all of this, the power supply design, grounding, etc, is all still quite important- perhaps even more so with a non feedback design than a more conventional design, if you want good numbers. With enough feedback, you've got some hiding room on the bench... with a non feedback circuit, basic power supply design, design for low induced noise, common mode rejection, all that stuff becomes quite important to make decent numbers on the bench. I suspect you can make a pretty decent sounding conventional amp if you design it to work well without the feedback, and then just add a little back in to make the numbers a little nicer. The best designers (Pass, Curl) seem to operate on that principle. But even Curl uses NFB in his best personal designs! (he told me so....)

            In the end, everyone should just use their ears- it doesn't matter what kind of spaghetti is in the box, as long as the music comes out with minimal damage. But it's human nature to get caught in studying and labelling things so we can get an easy handle on things- think of how many decisions in an average day we make becuase of convenient labels that allow us to shortcut our investigation of things by assigning categories and conclusions?


            Best regards,

            Jon




            Earth First!
            _______________________________
            We'll screw up the other planets later....
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15209

              #7
              Sort Of Compact Line Array At Some Frequencies - SOCLASoF
              Hey, Hank - I like it! But it doesn't roll off the toungue easy for me yet! :B

              Seriously, we'll continue the monopole and dipole discussion on that thread- and I welcome folks contributing their thoughts as well as their own experiences and systems. I just thought it would be more gentlemanly and focussed to start a separate thread focussed primarily on the design, construction, and performance issues around my "monopole" project- just like we kind of have going for the baby non line array dipole project. That will get updated soon, also. :roll:

              Now, when am I going to find time to get my Xmas shopping done? :E

              -Jon




              Earth First!
              _______________________________
              We'll screw up the other planets later....
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Hank
                Super Senior Member
                • Jul 2002
                • 1345

                #8
                SOCLASoF, SOCLASoF, SOCLASoF. Say it fast. I'ts unique. I envision it as a medallion on the front of your speakers.

                Separate thread okay by me.

                Forget the shopping (except for your daughter and GF) and you'll save money for more DIY

                Comment

                • Dennis H
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 3791

                  #9
                  Thanks, Jon! (I think :LOL: )

                  Comment

                  • PMazz
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2001
                    • 861

                    #10
                    Pete: is your solid-core plywood source a local company?
                    Yea, Hank. They're in North Jersey.

                    Pete
                    Birth of a Media Center

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15209

                      #11
                      Thanks and a tip of the hat to Hank again; my "mondo router bits" from MCLS came in yesterday- they're lovely, and they're real muthas- 1-1/2" roundover radius! h:



                      Step by step, inch by inch, slowly I turn....


                      -Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • Hank
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 1345

                        #12
                        ...closer and closer...
                        Let the MDF dust fly! As much education as the Grand Poohbahs are giving me, I'm glad that I can give you guys a tip every once in a great while.

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15209

                          #13
                          I'm expecting to have some dust fly in the next two weeks; in fact I'm extending my time off today to make sure that happens...

                          Hopefully I'll generate more than a big pile of woodchips! Though I've built folded horns and Altec A7 clones with just a handheld saber saw, I'd be the last (and ThomsW would be the next to last) to say that exquisite woodworking is my main bag... :roll: :LOL: but we're going to give it the old school try!

                          I also plan to build up a set of crossovers for the Arvo Parts, and to finish building and test my new NFB audio driver cards. Might even try to find some time somewhere in there for some Xmas kind of stuff! Then, if I find any spare time on my hands, I'll work on my Eidelon/Gydolon Klone design, and finish reviewing TEK's Monitor Klone design. (actually, that last bit will come much sooner some evening this week....)

                          Hmmmmm, maybe I should start my next new thread this way:

                          Hello, my name is Jon Marsh, and I have a compulsive DIY construction problem....


                          Best regards,

                          Jon




                          Earth First!
                          _______________________________
                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • TEK
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 1670

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                            Then, if I find any spare time on my hands, I'll work on my Eidelon/Gydolon Klone design
                            Hey, hey, what do I hear
                            Nice Jon, you're really keeping your hands full, that's for sure!
                            Looking forward to see the result of this...
                            (Youp, I'm still around!)

                            , and finish reviewing TEK's Monitor Klone design. (actually, that last bit will come much sooner some evening this week....)
                            ops:

                            What should we have done without extremly helpful people like Jon
                            -TEK


                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                            Comment

                            • David Meek
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 8938

                              #15
                              Thanks and a tip of the hat to Hank again; my "mondo router bits" from MCLS came in yesterday- they're lovely, and they're real muthas- 1-1/2" roundover radius!
                              Oooooh. Jon, sorry 'bout temporarily hijacking the thread, but can you or Hank post a link showing these bits? Thanks mucho.

                              Okay, back to our regularly scheduled programming. . .




                              David - HTGuide flunky
                              Our "Theater"
                              Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                              .

                              David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                              Comment

                              • ThomasW
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 10934

                                #16
                                MCLS router bits Click on the round over link.




                                theAudioWorx
                                Klone-Audio

                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                Comment

                                • Hank
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jul 2002
                                  • 1345

                                  #17
                                  Hello, my name is Jon Marsh, and I have a compulsive DIY construction problem...
                                  You sure do, and I'm glad! Jon, if you get married, the number of projects (speaker projects, that is) will take a nosedive. Same here. I should have the bucks to order RD 50's sometime in Jan-Feb, but in the meantime, I'm working on my BoseBusters. So far, I've done metallic red paint, fuzzy snow leopard faux fur (really - they're what I call lounge music speakers) and now I'm dying three oak cabinets in cherry. Hmmm...what about a line source with 2" drivers for grins...hmmm. The grand poohbah's aren't the only ones with a problem.
                                  Hi, my name is Hank and I'm a doitcherselfaholic...

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15209

                                    #18
                                    Hmmm...what about a line source with 2" drivers for grins...hmmm.

                                    Well, Gee, Hank, will you use Tang Bands or the nifty (but expensive) little HiVi drivers? The detailed plots I've seen of the Tang Bands show some pretty horrific variation above 5 kHz- +/- 8 dB swings, unless you crank up the old smoothing algorithms on your measurements..... which full range drivers are you playing with? And where's the pictures? Fuzzy snow leopard faux fur? Gosh, you may have even less mainstream taste than I do.... :LOL:


                                    Marriage? Not too likely with my job, I suspect. It's hard enough to hold onto a girlfriend.

                                    Besides, there's this nice Bosch router table at Leowe's I've had my eye on..... 8)

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                                    Happy Holidays!

                                    Jon




                                    Earth First!
                                    _______________________________
                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                    Last edited by theSven; 17 August 2023, 16:22 Thursday. Reason: Update image location
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • Hank
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2002
                                      • 1345

                                      #19
                                      Jon, the 2" jobbers are a secret so far - not a relesed product according to my source. If I'm given access to them, I'll let you know - a speaker designer (no, it's not Danny) has received some from the factory and he likes 'em. If they work out, he'll let me know and I'll tell you if I'm allowed to. We're thinking about doing a PVC pipe enclosure like that guy's project on the Parts Express web site.

                                      Not Quite Ready for Mainstream Speakers? Yeah, you might be right:
                                      [url]http://www.geocities.com/hankbond1/index[url]

                                      THAT'S not a router table, THIS is a router table:
                                      [url]http://www.jointech.com/[url] I built the table from their plans. Great products, designed and built right there in San Antonio. Their SmartFence is THE router fence, IMO. You need a large router table top to support larger speaker cabinets as you slide them across your bits.

                                      Hi, my name is Hank and I'm a doitcherselfaholic. ops:

                                      Comment

                                      • Brian Bunge
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2001
                                        • 1389

                                        #20
                                        Hank,

                                        Yes, I look forward to hearing from our source regarding the 2" line source! So the two of you have discussed using them in a PVC style enclosure? Won't the folks at Pipedreams be knocking on your door? The pipe sure will make assembly much easier. And it'll also be MUCH quicker/easier to veneer!

                                        How about the other idea you had about an enclosure with non-parallel sides?

                                        Brian

                                        Comment

                                        • Hank
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Jul 2002
                                          • 1345

                                          #21
                                          Brian, the Pipedreams are very different construction. Some are rectangular, some have round backs. I'm talking about this concept: http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/Kuze3201/Kuze3201.html
                                          He's using 32 each 2" TB drivers per side in a length of 4" PVC pipe.

                                          My non-round, non-squar idea is still in mind, but using the PVC pipe will be quick and cheap. The finish would be either the new P.E. vinyl (probably cherry) or paint. You could use laminate, but would probably have to heat it properly to get it to the small radius.

                                          Comment

                                          • Brian Bunge
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2001
                                            • 1389

                                            #22
                                            Hank,

                                            That's right. The Pipedreams only have a rounded back. I forgot about that.

                                            Remember to send me any updates from our friend on the 2" drivers!

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15209

                                              #23
                                              THAT'S not a router table, THIS is a router table:
                                              Yeah, yeah, I get that all the time. :LOL: I think it comes from being an electronics guy that plays at woodworking; I just don't have the right sense of scale!

                                              Happy Holidays!


                                              hmmmm, I can smell the wood dust already!

                                              -Jon




                                              Earth First!
                                              _______________________________
                                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • Pete
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Feb 2002
                                                • 9

                                                #24
                                                Hi-Vi Research has a new BS series of drivers, that look
                                                very interesting for a line array.

                                                Hi-Vi

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15209

                                                  #25
                                                  Very interesting, in a curious way....

                                                  The B1S is an interesting device for a "mid-tweeter" - it covers a wide range (~500 Hz to 20 kHz) fairly well, it could be a killer "cheap" tweeter for drivers requiring low crossover point...

                                                  It's only really obvious drawback is the very low efficiency, 79 dB/watt- even two in parallel will only give you 85 dB. That's enough for many cases, but just barely....


                                                  Now, remembering some of the Dynaudio speakers and others with dual tweeters in an MTM array, imagine two of these crossed over at 850 Hz to two of the MCM Carbon fiber 6-1/2"- the only problem is the crossover would cost many multiples of the drivers! You'd need at least a 3rd oder electrical, maybe higher....

                                                  An array of these for a mid tweeter strip would be expensive, depending on how close you spaced them- even every two inches would require 24 to cover the same vertical distance as an RD50. At about $8.67 each, that's about $210 a side- not cheap, but maybe not too high.

                                                  The three inch one could get you down to about 100 Hz. Bose cube killers, anyone? Or two way 901's? But they're almost $10 more than the 6-1/2" MCM. BUT, they probably could be used with a lower order crossover.

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Jon




                                                  Earth First!
                                                  _______________________________
                                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Hank
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Jul 2002
                                                    • 1345

                                                    #26
                                                    I noticed the Hi-Vi's in my PE catalog, but they're kinda pricey for this tightwad. My TB ported BoseBusters get close enough to 100 Hz.
                                                    Jon, a 901 Klone? Two-way with the 3" Hi-Vi? Have you had too much holiday egg nog? Can you imagine the flak you'd get for doing that klone? "Yes folks, here we have Jon's Direct/Relflecting Klone, done with two 3" drivers, one on the front and one on the back of the cabinet. Place your orders for plans now - they're going like hot cakes!" I've seen it all now.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15209

                                                      #27
                                                      Yeah, it's either the Holiday eggnog (which I've had hardly any of :? ) or the pain killers I dug up out of the freezer when my back started acting up on me! I think it's the latter, since I don't think I can plead insanity...

                                                      OK, so's we put a 3" and a 1" each on the front and back... or how about all four sides for the "high end" version? Just a series crossover, quasi second order, not many components, maybe around 3 kHz- the wave factor will be the same as for my 8's crossed over at 1.25 kHz.... maybe a CSX series 10" Peerless woofer for the boom box.... (Xmax 9 mm) (I looked at the Peerless XLS, but for costing almost as much as a Titanic MkII 10", it's not in the same performance league).


                                                      Oooooh,,, I 'm feeling wooozy...... :LOL:

                                                      Well, I've got a appointment next Thursday for my back... no wood cutting in the near future! Good thing I have some low effort electronics stuff to piddle around with to keep me from going insane....


                                                      Don't worry Hank, I'm not going to move into the Bose Klone market. Though my former boss at Infineon would probably love the above concept for the speakers he wants in his bedroom to go with his Toshiba 57H82....

                                                      So, we revise the concept; dual tweeter/dual woofer MTM for front sats and center, dipole version for rears (HT dipole, not the panel type....)

                                                      It could be a hoot to run the numbers and see how it looks for SPL output capability vs Xmax and the like... I leave that as a holiday homework assignment for any interseted parties....

                                                      Gotta lay offa that eggnogg..... :LOL:

                                                      -Jon
                                                      Jon




                                                      Earth First!
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                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Hank
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Jul 2002
                                                        • 1345

                                                        #28
                                                        Jon, as I tell everyone who comes into my office with a problem, "Tequila is good for that". Get back to the serious speakres, and forget your latest flight of fantasy.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15209

                                                          #29
                                                          ThomasW recommended grain alcohol for it's anesthetic properties, but I might like your suggestion better, though I'm not a big Tequila fan (1800 reserve is pretty good, though). There's a cost/strength/flavor tradeoff analysis to be done there- I can't afford to numb out my back using B&B or Armangnac (cognac)!

                                                          Regards,

                                                          Jon




                                                          Earth First!
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                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Hank
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jul 2002
                                                            • 1345

                                                            #30
                                                            Yes, a bit of flavor helps. My recommendation: the smoothest fairly affordable tequila I've found is Sauza Hornitos (green label). El Jimador is not bad and has a different, unique taste. Experiment!
                                                            And don't forget the limes. You'll get lots of vitamin C, flavor and an attitude adjustment. You could get some friends together and do a test tasting.

                                                            I'm glad you didn't mention "worm". You'd be surprised how many greenhorns have the idea that tequila has a worm in the bottle. It's a constant teaching process...sigh...

                                                            Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15209

                                                              #31
                                                              Well Hank, we've got some El Jimador here, not the Sauza, though....


                                                              If we run out of the premium Jose Cuervo, maybe will try that next.


                                                              Maybe I'll mod these drawings to make a 8" Dayton version two way with RD50 sealed/ported array. It's funny, not surprising, that the LF roll off point for 4 tens versus 6 8's in the Dayton's is about the same, re enclosure size. They can be setup to go low, but we're talking a big, big box. ~360 liters, or so -thats 13 cu ft!

                                                              The thing about a line array is the problem with the difference in fall-off rate for distance compared with a "point source".

                                                              Enclosure would have to be roughly 60" tall and 18" wide by 24" deep. Not tiny...

                                                              This is the cheapest "widerange" two way line array I think I could propose. Not a dipole, of course.
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                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • mante
                                                                Member
                                                                • Jul 2004
                                                                • 72

                                                                #32
                                                                another idea

                                                                Hello Jon,

                                                                I priced out your current RD50 project and it came to over $4200 for the speakers alone! :rofl: How about Newform ribbons for the tweeter, RD50 for the mids, all on top of two TC2+ .....or maybe I should stick with the Arvo's!
                                                                ops:
                                                                Craig

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Hank
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Jul 2002
                                                                  • 1345

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Jon and Thomas, you two boys enjoy your tequila relaxation.

                                                                  Enclosure would have to be roughly 60" tall and 18" wide by 24" deep. Not tiny...
                                                                  Your point being that a dipole would be quite a bit wider than 18", right?
                                                                  I priced out your current RD50 project and it came to over $4200 for the speakers alone!
                                                                  Mante THAT is a sobering thought! :E

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15209

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by mante
                                                                    Hello Jon,

                                                                    I priced out your current RD50 project and it came to over $4200 for the speakers alone! :rofl: How about Newform ribbons for the tweeter, RD50 for the mids, all on top of two TC2+ .....or maybe I should stick with the Arvo's!
                                                                    ops:
                                                                    Craig

                                                                    Sometimes my devious way of avoiding the financial pain is to purchase bits and pieces over time.

                                                                    So, the RD50's were bought two years ago.

                                                                    IF I used BFD1203 sealed, , I've got a pair bought 3 years ago. Ditto for an HE-15, another option for monopole woofer.

                                                                    The "cheapest" way to do this, is a two way, monopole, with just the RD50's. If one went with 6 8" Dayton's, that's ~ $240 a side for the woofs, then $515 at current prices for the RD50's. I don't recall paying quite that much.... :huh:

                                                                    I've seen plots on the Newforms, which indicate they don't go sigficantly higher on the top compared with the RD's. Not to nearly 40 kHz, like the Founteks. R45's are about $1040 a pair. They are monopole, can be run down to near 1 kHz. Now, one probably could match those up with a line array of 8's, for example. Or smaller drivers.

                                                                    I'm going to call Madisound, and see if they will give any quantity break on the Fountek's. I'm expecting to use between 6 and 8 per side. I'm hoping to get the price each down to $80 or $90 each, but I may be kidding myself.

                                                                    An alternative would be running without them- many folks are happy that way.

                                                                    This is going to be the LAST big speaker I build for a while.

                                                                    Compared with the Arvo's, the only thing I think/hope they may offer is a more room filling sound in larger rooms, even more consistent vertical response (though I chose the Arvo crossover frequencies and blends to try to minimize floor bounce cancellation in the troublesome "power" region), and of course, lower distortion at higher SPL. Will they be worth the extra money? Don't know yet.... I have expectations, based on experience with the RD75 setup in Thomas's rig, but have to use those ears. :W

                                                                    ~Jon
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                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Paul H
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Feb 2004
                                                                      • 904

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                      This is going to be the LAST big speaker I build for a while.
                                                                      ~Jon

                                                                      Nothing to add to that, just didn't want anyone to miss this quote. :wink:

                                                                      Paul

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Dennis H
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Aug 2002
                                                                        • 3791

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Yeah, that quote ranks right up there with "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Hank
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Jul 2002
                                                                          • 1345

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Jon left himself a loophole:
                                                                          "...for a while."
                                                                          Wuss.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                                            • 1531

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Hank
                                                                            Jon left himself a loophole:


                                                                            Wuss.
                                                                            Your lack of confidence is disturbing, Hank.


                                                                            Still, if Jon doesn't quit building large speakers for a while, he'll never have any time to work on the Aragon Xmod, which is essential to completing the system configuration in the new Death Star HT room.
                                                                            DFAL
                                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Dennis H
                                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                                              • Aug 2002
                                                                              • 3791

                                                                              #39
                                                                              I see The Force (of tequila) is strong in Jon.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15209

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                Sometimes my devious way of avoiding the financial pain is to purchase bits and pieces over time.


                                                                                I'm going to call Madisound, and see if they will give any quantity break on the Fountek's. I'm expecting to use between 6 and 8 per side. I'm hoping to get the price each down to $80 or $90 each, but I may be kidding myself.


                                                                                ~Jon
                                                                                Hehe... funny how things work out, since they're going to introduce a slightly tweaked version, they've dropped the price on the JP2's in current stock to $88.50. Hmmm. They've only got 126 in stock.... :lol:

                                                                                ~Jon
                                                                                the AudioWorx
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                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Dennis H
                                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                  • Aug 2002
                                                                                  • 3791

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  The new version, while more expensive, might be worth it. The user can replace the ribbons himself rather than sending them back to Madisound for repair. If I had speakers using those drivers, and planned on keeping them for a while, I'd want to buy replacement ribbons up front, in case they ever get discontinued.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15209

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Understandable... and "user replaceable" is a variable concept.




                                                                                    Here is a well written PDF on how to replace the ribbons in the JP3 and JP2, using standard household aluminum foil. It is what I would called "skilled" labor, but I don't think I'd have any trouble with it.

                                                                                    PDF no longer available

                                                                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	index_18_ribbon_change.jpg
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Size:	25.2 KB
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                                                                                    At the same site, some other interesting projects, including a comparison measurement of the JP3 and the Arum Cantus G2Si.

                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 17 August 2023, 16:17 Thursday. Reason: Remove broken PDF link, update image location, update url
                                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                                    M8ta
                                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                                    Modula Xtreme
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                                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Dennis H
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                                                      • 3791

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Thanks for the links, Jon. That doesn't look that bad at all, especially if you had a prefab corrugated ribbon. I wonder why Mad won't sell the ribbon elements to handy DIYers?

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 15209

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Dennis H
                                                                                        Thanks for the links, Jon. That doesn't look that bad at all, especially if you had a prefab corrugated ribbon. I wonder why Mad won't sell the ribbon elements to handy DIYers?

                                                                                        I think it's because of that last qualifying adjective you put in there, "handy". A lot of guys I've seen have pretty good skills with a table saw, but may not have fine motor coordination to match (comes more from playing electric guitar and building a lot of electronics over the years).

                                                                                        The replacement ribbons are dirt cheap to make- but I can see that installation requires a little eye hand coordination.

                                                                                        The main tricky part to this is finding something with the right pattern and size to make the corrugations. I'm starting to look for that...

                                                                                        From this, my opinion is that these ribbons could be a better long term investment than any dome speaker, as getting voice coil assemblies for a dome might be problematic at times, but aluminum foil should be around quite some time....

                                                                                        OTOH, I think with a good crossover design, and especially with multiple drivers (I'm pondering 8 per side - 40 inches worth) these should be pretty bullet proof. True, their only rated for 17 watts RMS, 40 watts peak, but they're 98 dB/2.83 VRMS. At 16 watts, that's 110 dB. Yowza.... with an array, we're talking some serious SPL capability.

                                                                                        ~Jon

                                                                                        ~Jon
                                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                                        Natalie P
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                                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                                                          • 1531

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          The components are coming together...

                                                                                          Some surprisingly heavy cartons were received today; in spite of the use of Neodymium magnets, the Fountek JP2's are not lightweight drivers in any sense. Their construction is most gratifying.


                                                                                          Click image for larger version

Name:	jp2-front-top-view-2.jpg
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                                                                                          They're shipped in matched pairs, and packed quite well, with explicit instructions included for handling and installation - no Jedai insight or mind probe required.

                                                                                          It is only a matter of time until the construction of the Saint-Saens will commence, as the Pau Ferro hardwood imported from Kasshyk has also been received.

                                                                                          The last technical details regarding component choices should be settled soon- as soon as Chad can provide definitive data on the Atlas series 12s.
                                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 17 August 2023, 16:23 Thursday. Reason: Update image locaiton
                                                                                          DFAL
                                                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

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