Nascent...

[Evil Twin]

While music is clearly the primary inspiration for these efforts we discuss on the forum, there is another element driving activities- usually the availability of a driver or drivers that pique the curiosity and interest because of performance or value, or regrettably, like some women, just how they look.





No one is likely to claim that the ZA14W08 is just another pretty face around this part of the galaxy, though we hear few complaints about the appearance.

So, while there are many existing designs from others as well as the driver creator, one more may yet be useful also.






Perhaps an unconventional baffle arrangement in an MTM designed for a large vertical window in the crossover region seems a good starting point....

[Evil Twin]

Reserved

Reserved for additional material

[Evil Twin]

Reserved for Bothan spies

who will be prosecuted to the full extent of Imperial law.

[Evil Twin]

Reserved for the Chancellor

[Hank]

Uh-oh, he's baaaaack! It's a good thing Jon is so saddled with work - if he were here with E.T., they'd be doing another over-the-top extravaganza.
Look who's talking - I'm in my office and everyone else is gone... :cry:

[Evil Twin]

I'm certain the Moff you report to is most pleased with your dedication to duty... but there are times when fulfilling the Dark side requires a more independent course of behavior on your part.

Consider this a warning... I do not wish to be having this conversation with you again this time next year...

[augerpro]

Awesome driver combo! This will be a popular project. Any plans for TM?

[69Stingray]

love the wood work. Looking forward to more info. - I would love to see a detail explanation (and reasoning behind) the woofer circuit.

[Paul Ebert]

Sure wish that John would come out with an 8 or 10 inch woofer with commensurate performance and appearance.

[69Stingray]

Sure wish that John would come out with an 8 or 10 inch woofer with commensurate performance and appearance.

I would love to see John either take over production or re-engineer the Vifa D26NC55. Add a tuned rear chamber to lover the Fs below 1 kHz. Add a circle waveguide faceplate (similar to the Vifa BC25SC06-04). It would be great of he could set the depth of the waveguide such that the tweeter would be time aligned with his ZA14W08. If the price stayed under $50, I think it would be very popular tweeter.

Also, Evil Twin, I am curious if you feel that the Scan Speak tweeter is the best value to mate with ZA14W08?

[Evil Twin]

Adjucator

Awesome driver combo! This will be a popular project. Any plans for TM?

The usual arguments I hear for a TM relate to the issues with narrow dispersion vertically for a typical MTM- which impacts the listening window and the power response- good arguments all. But based on the assumption that an LR4 is THE target transfer function to use for an MTM- an a priori limitation that should be examined and discarded by a thoughtful designer.

The main argument against a TM is the drop in output level and votlage sensitivity for small drivers, and the relatively small savings in cost and effort. So while I would not rule that possibility out, this must be framed against the larger considerations of the system design of which the Nascent is but a component.



The name for the Nascent was chosen because while in it’s base form, it yields very good performance, it has not realized it’s full potential.
This potential is realized by the additional of the Hyper-Drive module, woofer and crossover assembly, which upgrades the Nascent to the three way Adjucator system, a speaker with substantial extensions in SPL capability and low frequency weight and definition- of reference quality to the extent that you may find it well suited to judging the quality and performance of other components- and may find them lacking. This addition also opens up the midrange performance, particularly for music at more life like listening levels.

Think of the Nascent as the command saucer from a Terran Federation Enterprise class ship- capable of carrying the heart of the crew, full command and control, and with local maneuvering via impulse engines.

The ability to interface the crossover of the Nascent with the complete Adjucator system requires some additional complexities, and precludes the use of a quasi-series network as employed in the NatalieP.

The Adjucator is a complete system akin to the Star Destroyer after which it is named, with capabilities raised by an order of magnitude.

Development targets include very linear frequency response on and off axis, uniform power response, and low distortion, including low cabinet radiated artifacts. To this end, special materials have been used in the front panel fabrication, using a three layer panel that provides a very stiff and low noise “launch pad” for improved definition of inner detail. Linear frequency response on axis by itself is a pre-requisite, but not nearly sufficient for sublime reproduction of complex musical works.

===================================



Chancellor’s note: My enthusiastic apprentice maybe getting carried away overmuch in his prose, (if not outright indulging in satire of well known industry figures), but keep in mind that while the prose may be satire, the project, methodology, and results most assuredly are not...

[Evil Twin]

love the wood work. Looking forward to more info. - I would love to see a detail explanation (and reasoning behind) the woofer circuit.

I could as well use the explanation for the unorthodox NatilieP crossover- it's what works- but the simple basis is that it is a 3rd order network with trap filter for the driver upper range resonance, and some additional frequency shaping besides the baffle step compensation. R3 is merely a representation of the capacitor ESR.

[---k---]

ET,
Is the tweeter measurement on that baffle? I'm wondering what kind of diffraction your going to get off of the woofers. With that pretty wood, there isn't going to be any felt, right?

[Evil Twin]

ET,
Is the tweeter measurement on that baffle? I'm wondering what kind of diffraction your going to get off of the woofers. With that pretty wood, there isn't going to be any felt, right?

Regrettably from the viewpoint of cosmetics, a felt based diffraction assembly is used, located between the parallel edges of the woofer plates, but the cosmetic impact is fairly minimal, the final configuration in development but delayed by a failed microphone preamplifier.

You know how well I handle failure by subordinates or equipment...

Some people say I have anger management issues....

I see it as just having management issues.

Regardless, it's always an option to omit such felt or acoustical foam, for those for whom cosmetics rule. The farfield power response will still be pretty similar, though the on axis response not as smooth.

The panels have been finish sanded, detailed and lacquered, the results are very satisfactory with a simple finishing process.

As the workshop is undergoing a complete re-organization this weekend, and next weekend I'm installing a system for the Princess's cousin with the cervical disability, further updates will be delayed a week or so. We are also looking at a lower cost driver alternative from the Ohio Sector for the Adjucator module, though the main construction and tests will be completed with components on hand from the primary vendor from the Danish Quadrant.



The measured performance of these 22W/8857 is MOST satisfactory...

[chasw98]

As the workshop is undergoing a complete re-organization this weekend, and next weekend I'm installing a system for the Princess's cousin with the cervical disability, further updates will be delayed a week or so.

I guess there won't be much sawdust to pick up will there? :B :B :T

[TacoD]

We are also looking at a lower cost driver alternative from the Ohio Sector for the Adjucator module, though the main construction and tests will be completed with components on hand from the primary vendor from the Danish Quadrant.

Ohio sector? Is this Aurasound? (Sorry but I am never been in your sector)

[Evil Twin]

Ohio sector? Is this Aurasound? (Sorry but I am never been in your sector)

Dayton, Ohio, is the home base for the "house vendor" of this forum- they're the ones running the annoying Flash ads up above that I block in my normal browser. :twisted:

[Evil Twin]

[QUOTE=chasw98][QUOTE=Evil Twin]As the workshop is undergoing a complete re-organization this weekend, and next weekend I'm installing a system for the Princess's cousin with the cervical disability, further updates will be delayed a week or so.

I guess there won't be much sawdust to pick up will there? :B :B :T

I have stored an adequate quantity of sawdust to "doctor" photographs as needed. However, most of the saw dust generation for this technological terror is complete. Once I was the student, now I am the janitor.

[Paul K.]

I used this SS woofer in my canTiLenas (which came in first in the Unlimited Class at Iowa 2007 DIY) and it's an absolutely super woofer with a spectacular dynamic range. The 3-way canTiLenas are my personal reference speaker and will likely remain as such for a long, long time.
Paul

hand from the primary vendor from the Danish Quadrant.



The measured performance of these 22W/8857 is MOST satisfactory...

[69Stingray]

I could as well use the explanation for the unorthodox NatilieP crossover- it's what works- but the simple basis is that it is a 3rd order network with trap filter for the driver upper range resonance, and some additional frequency shaping besides the baffle step compensation. R3 is merely a representation of the capacitor ESR.

ET- thanks.

I see the traditional Zobel next to the drivers. I can also see the 3rd-order electrical filter topology, where the 2nd inductor is also a contour network. I was surprised to see the capacitor split into two. What is the reasoning behind that? Also, what does R7 do? Is that part of the trap filter you mention? I don't think I have seen a resistor in that position in a circuit before.

[Evil Twin]

ET- thanks.

I see the traditional Zobel next to the drivers. I can also see the 3rd-order electrical filter topology, where the 2nd inductor is also a contour network. I was surprised to see the capacitor split into two. What is the reasoning behind that? Also, what does R7 do? Is that part of the trap filter you mention? I don't think I have seen a resistor in that position in a circuit before.

Have you worked on control circuit compensation? The usage is similar. The use of R7 in series with C8 introduces a lead zero in the roll off pole established by C8. At lower frequencies, the value of C8 adds to C3 to determine the natural resonance and response of the combination of L2 and C8+C3. At about the frequency where the Xc of C8 is equal to the value of R7, the zero compensating the pole is introduced. This combination is subtly employed here, but allows more detailed shaping of the response curve.

It is a very similar trick to the modifications we used to make on the analog stick control boards of the first generation Seinar Tie Fighters- the control loop response could be speeded up, with faster yaw and roll rates, if the pilot has the reflexes and speed to match. Otherwise, the most likely result is to spin out of control.

The trap filter is created from the combination of L3 which is part of the LF crossover network, and the addition of C4 in parallel. This introduces a resonant notch in the output which in this case is tuned to the driver peak.


If you like puzzling over networks, try the NatlieP design which I did years ago - it is a combined series/parallel network with interesting characteristics.

[jkrutke]

Threads with odd names don't normally catch my attention, but I'm glad I clicked on this one. Looks great, and nice tweeter choice and awesome baffle design. Maybe it's just me, but I get a little comfort by having the Scan Speak name on the tweeter. Peerless consistency has not always lived up to the name.

Looking forward to more design information and more pictures.

Sure wish that John would come out with an 8 or 10 inch woofer with commensurate performance and appearance.

I already had one prototype made from one build house, and I was not happy with it. Or I should say, it was OK, but in several areas it did not blow me away. It's hard to get a build house to give me exactly what I want, at least without having the price jacked up with custom tooling. An 8" is something that I am considering, but a lot has to fall into place just right for me to be willing to put my name on something and bring it to market. There may never be an 8 or 10 from Zaph Audio, so don't hold your breath.

The measured performance of these 22W/8857 is MOST satisfactory...

I bet it is. The 8851 I tested was best 8" in the driver group, and I bet ( or should say hope) the metal cone gives a smoother response on the top end. Looking forward to your measurements.

[Jonasz]

Troels used the 8857 in his Jazzman design.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/jazzman.htm

[Paul K.]

Jonas: Did you get the email I sent you containing the attachment about the canTiLenas?
Paul

Troels used the 8857 in his Jazzman design.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/jazzman.htm

[LING GOWA]

I'm surprised that nobody has snagged John's driver for midrange duty in a 3-way.

[Arc00]

I'm surprised that nobody has snagged John's driver for midrange duty in a 3-way.

My current project is the ZA14 with a RS225 and XT25/SS6600.

[benchtester]

My current project is the ZA14 with a RS225 and XT25/SS6600.

Go for the SS6600, you won't regret it.

Or the SS D2004/6020-00 (if one ZA14)

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8512

[Arc00]

Go for the SS6600, you won't regret it.

Or the SS D2004/6020-00 (if one ZA14)

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8512

I have the 6600, I just took it out of my car. I just can't decide if I want to keep it out of there.

[Jonasz]

Jonas: Did you get the email I sent you containing the attachment about the canTiLenas?
Paul

Yes I did, thanks a lot Paul! :T

[augerpro]

Just realized I have all the drivers and could use my PE cabinets after making up a new baffle! Next time I get into the garage I'll have to whip up a pair of these

Jon, question on the resonance trap on the tweeter being before the rest of the network: is this to keep the resonance more manageable by trapping it before the reactance with the first cap causes it the impedance to spike? Only downside I could see is maybe an increase inthe amount of power that must be sunk?

[savage25xtreme]

CAD drawing

I am a little confused by what the 2 lines on the side are indicating. 8 inches long and 6 inches down from the top?

Also where could I find harmonic distortion plots on the D2608? EDIT: found it on Zaph's page under the old peerless number.

Zaph's driver looks amazing 300hz to 2500hz, to my novice eye.

[---k---]

I'm guessing that the 8" long line is to indicate the roundover on the edge. Jon should confirm.

[Evil Twin]

Ryan's surmise is correct. This cut with a router must be completed on the lower panel prior to gluing the woofer plates to the main front panel.

With regards to Brandon's question, the LCR network is not a tweeter trap, but a zobel for the total crossover impedance, intended to reduce interaction with tube amplifiers or zero feedback solid state amplifiers. The Q and level of the tweeter FS impedance peak is such that a network was found to be unnecessary.

The harmonic distortion numbers I recorded for the D2608 from SS were so low they strained credulity- so I will remeasure later, as well as measure within the system context.

[evilskillit]

This is an interesting project, coming up on two months later, any new developments?

[Evil Twin]

A new hope for SACD playback

This is an interesting project, coming up on two months later, any new developments?

The Chancellor "re-prioritized" my activities over the holidays, putting an Imperial priority class 1 effort behind an electronics project, just recently completed.



This Sith sponsored project modified a terran Pioneer DV79AVi disk player, enabling it to output 24bit/176.4 kHz PCM on a custom SPDIF output when playing SACD disks (high resolution PCM down converted from DSD, using a custom processor with 37 bit math and 48 bit accumulators), with Imperial Sector decryption technology originally developed by the electronics division of Seinar Industries to intercept encrypted rebel communications.

This effort proved to be more taxing and time consuming than anticipated, but the Chancellor appears to be most satisfied with the results- it is rumored he has a large collection of single layer SACDs imported from the Terran Federation at great cost, which he plans now to use in the Executor Star Destroyer and the Imperial shuttle audio system after conversion and storage in Sith Holocrons.

[evilskillit]

Most impressive. I will patiently await further updates to the Nascent when the Chancelor's primary task is complete.

[bbcmp1979]

subscribe for future ref

[A9X]

I really like the laminated and shaped baffle.

[Chancellor]

A new direction...

The course of events and developments has necessitated that I take matters firmly in hand with my eager apprentice and provide some additional guidance. The original concept he has been working on has not proceeded in an acceptable manner or with results that are fully satisfactory.

For this reason he will be revisiting some key parameters of the Nascent design and adjusting matters accordingly- it is only in his best interest, as the alternative would be some one on one training in the more painful and esoteric uses of Force Lightning, a training for which I cannot provide assurances he would survive. The only reason we are not proceeding already with this Force Lightning exercise is the fairly acceptable performance rendered with regards to the SACD player modifications.

I'm sure we can find adequate means to motivate my apprentice towards significant progress, so that the forum members eagerly awaiting news of this project won't be kept in the Dark too much longer...

[cjd]

I'm sure we can find adequate means to motivate my apprentice towards significant progress

Maybe you can get him to stop creating alts on forums and applying himself toward these efforts instead...

:P

[numberoneoppa]

Yeah, I'm baffled.

Get it? Baffled. Haha.`

[evilskillit]

Good thing 3rd post was reserved for The Chancellor, or we'd all be in trouble.

[Evil Twin]

Ahhh, summertime and an old Sith Lord's thought turn toward building speakers... this project has languished too long, it is past time to correct that situation.

Not considering the influence of the grille cloth, or planned diffraction control, but planning for it, the last crossover update shows promise, but needs additional review...

[5th element]

Well there's a blast from the past! I always wondered what happened to these. The ZA14s are pretty darned good drivers and the 9130 ain't no slouch either.

A nice low xover point for the MTM and making the 9130 worth the while. You've said the xover needs fine tuning, the rising top might be a bit much and that little dip/peak at 5k might cause a tad bit of sibilance but you'd need to listen to see. Well at least there are things you know you can do if areas do irritate.

Given the less expensive nature of the drivers it would make sense to keep the xover count down too. What's it looking like at the moment?

[benchtester]

I designed a 2-way speaker with the ZA14 and the Seas DXT tweeter, and have tried the HDS with another woofer. But in the effort to make a very affordable speaker: what about mating it with the SB26STCN (which I have not heard)?