Info about Avalon clone project

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  • TEK
    Super Senior Member
    • Oct 2002
    • 1670

    Info about Avalon clone project

    I'm looking for clones of speakers from Avalon.

    Does anyone know about someone who have buildt some of this speakers?
    Web-pages of the projects, drawings, elements used and so on?
    -TEK


    Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    Which of their speakers are you interested in copying?

    If it's the Eidolon Diamond (shown on the link you provided) I hope your woodworking skillls are exceptional and that your pockets are lined with gold. The tweeters alone cost $2800ea






    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Hank
      Super Senior Member
      • Jul 2002
      • 1345

      #3
      $2800??!!! Tell me you can hear $2800 worth of high frequency reproduction. Go ahead, tell me. Step across this line and tell me.
      I thought not.

      "...from the Platonic conception of idealized forms; the embodiment of perfection that exists beyond our plane of perception."

      Now THAT's worth some money! Have you guys ever had a Platonic conception? Yessir, I'd like to build something that I can't perceive because it's outside my plane.

      :LOL: :LOL: I couldn't resist. Somebody stop me. I need a tequila and beer. I swear I could get a job as a marketing message crafter. Okay, okay, I'll try to get serious. Ahem....

      Comment

      • TEK
        Super Senior Member
        • Oct 2002
        • 1670

        #4
        Ehh, not to helpful information maybe?
        (And the klone-audio forum seems to be "dead")

        No, it's not the Eidolon Diamont I will clone.

        It's the Monitor (as a training project), and Opus Ceramique or Eidolon.
        -TEK


        Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

        Comment

        • ThomasW
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 10934

          #5
          The Monitor uses the discontinued (for DIY purchasers) MB Quart double magnet 1" titaniun dome tweeter, and an 7" Eton woofer. Probably sounds pretty good. But......

          I guarantee that the M8a-MK-IV as detailed on several threads on this forum and built by several members of the forum will sound better. Jon (the M8a-MKIV designer) was involved with several of the original Avalon designs. He designed and built the M8a-MKIV as direct competition to the Eclipse. The people have built them all have raved about the performance.

          That being said; if you're willing to use a completely different tweeter, then the Monitor can be 'kloned'.




          theAudioWorx
          Klone-Audio

          IB subwoofer FAQ page


          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

          Comment

          • TEK
            Super Senior Member
            • Oct 2002
            • 1670

            #6
            Hello
            Thanks for the reply.

            The main reason for building the Monitor is to practice the woodwork and to try it out a "small scale" project before going to the Opus Ceramique project. They will problably be used as rear speakers if I get the Opus completed.

            I was wondering about using the Thiel C-12 and the Thiel C-92 elements.

            The design is quite important for me (or mostly for my wife). If it's not good enought I will not be allowed to use them

            But I still need information about crossover, cabinet sizes and cabinet content before I'm getting anywhere...

            And of course, I still interested in any links or information about people who have build these or other speakers from Avalon...
            -TEK


            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

            Comment

            • Dennis H
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Aug 2002
              • 3791

              #7
              The design is quite important for me (or mostly for my wife). If it's not good enought I will not be allowed to use them
              I think it's important to remember that aesthetic design is a separate issue from the acoustic design of the speaker. Within reason, you can change the exterior shape of almost any design without changing the sound too much. Just keep the same internal volume and about the same front baffle width and you should be okay. So, you could buy a kit that sounds good, including the drivers, crossovers and plans for the enclosure, and then design your own enclosure that meets your wife's approval to be allowed in the room.

              Comment

              • ThomasW
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 10934

                #8
                No one that I know has cloned any of the Avalon designs, so the situation is that there are no projects to copy. As a result you're basically on your own as far as creating the speaker from scratch.

                As indicated on the KloneAudio website if you're intent on making a copy of the Monitor you better get old mfgr's literature and find reviews that have data about the design. Scaning photographs and scaling them against the size of a known opject in the photo will provide the dimensions of the cabinet. If it would be beneficial I can give you the exact measurements of the MB tweeter. The Eton midwoofer dimensions are available from any supplier that sells the driver.

                However if the interest is purely cosmetic; then there are other options that would be easier to build, sound better, cost less and look the same quite similar to the 'faceted' Avalon design




                theAudioWorx
                Klone-Audio

                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                Comment

                • TEK
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 1670

                  #9
                  Hello

                  Thanks for your input.
                  To ignore what your saying would be quite ignorant...

                  If I understand you correctly, so is what you propose that I do to find a good DIY project and then redesign the boxes to the design I want them to have?
                  And if I maintain the same volume, the different shape of the box inside would not be a problem?

                  What about the fact that the front baffle of the Avalon speakers have different width (due to the facet), will that cause a problem, or is the most important part that there is enought width to hold the elements?

                  Do you have suggestions about projects that I should look into?
                  I really do not want to do all this myself, so having an existing project to use as a reference would be a huge advance :?

                  And of course the design is of big matter, but the sound as well. But I'm open minded and the goal is the best possible sound for the least amount of mony, so if I could get a better sound for less the price, then of course I'm interested

                  But I can not just skip the design part, because then I will not be allowed to use them

                  NB: Still interested in a monitor and a full size project. Need the training...
                  -TEK


                  Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                  Comment

                  • Hank
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jul 2002
                    • 1345

                    #10
                    TEK, I detect a dangerously large number of "allowed's"
                    Seriously, if you're not an experienced woodworker and you will not be allowed to have "box" shaped speakers, then you must have a cabinet shop or an experienced friend build the cabinets for you. The alternative might be to show your wife samples or at least quality photos of the large number of wood species that can make a "box" speaker cabinet absolutely beautiful. As beautiful to look at as to listen to. Also, you should go with a proven design, since crossover design capability will take at least several months of study/experimenting.
                    Decision time.

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15209

                      #11
                      The woodworking involved in constructing the Avalon speakers is rather involved and equipment intensive. The front panels are are in the three to four inch thick range in most models.

                      Charles Hansen was the original founder and designer for Avalon Acoustics (he currently heads Ayre Acoustics, a manufacturer of zero feedback audio electronics). Charles used to work for me at another company where I was the chief designer while he was a physics student at CU. When I got married in 1983, my new wife didn't like the looks of some prototype speakers I'd built with a partner when we were considering starting a company; these speakers incorporated many of the construction ideas regarding baffle design and strength (though not the nice veneer work! ) which went into the first Avalon models (Ascent and Eclipse). From these speakers and a number of discussions Charles and I had in the old days came many of the ideas incorporated into the first Avalon products. I used to get a bit of a kick out of being introduced by him as the "grandfather" of Avalon, even though at the time of Avalon's birth I was only in my 30's.

                      Charles sold out of the company to take a break from Audio, and Neil Patel becaame the head designer for Avalon. Neils designs include the Monitor, Eidelon, Opus, Osiris, etc. A primary principle is the use of drivers only in the pistonic range, and having very strong, inert enclosures. Crossover components are very high grade; Solen Hepa Litz inductors and Solen capacitors- no iron core inductors or electrolytic caps, even for very large value capacitors. Internal wiring is with Cardas stranded Litz hookup wire, and guages were selected by listening as well as measurements.

                      I suppose that if anyone were to "klone" Avalon speakers, I would be a little more qualified to do so than most- at least, I'd probably have more insight into the guiding design principles used at Avalon.

                      If you were to do a speaker in the size and complexity range as the Monitor, I'd suggest scaling it up a bit; something closer to an 8" two way, if you want some bass or dynamics. The 7" Eton woofer as well as the 9" Eton have somewhat limited Xmax. Were I making a cosmetic "monitor klone" to the original size, I'd use the Seas 7" Excel driver, and either the original MB titanium tweeter, or the Vifa XT25, or the Millenium Excel tweeter. But my personal preference, if I was intent on the appearance of the Monitor but better full range performance, would be to incorporate my M8 bookshelf design into that enclosure, scaling it up appropriately (about 24-26" tall, 12" wide, 14-15" deep; internal working volume should be about 32-24 liters). That design has been discussed on some threads on this forum:





                      Of all of Neil's designs, I think the standard Eidelon is the most interesting; I think if I was interested in doing a DIY Avalon, that would be my target.



                      OTOH, I've got other fish to fry these days, like the Arvo Part project and the "Mano e Mano" line array. (working title )

                      I know Hank won't let me off the hook until I finish those, and since I have the 16 6-1/2" drivers sitting in my closet, it behooves me to get busy on those!

                      The minor voicing tweaks which might be necessary to take a design in a "conventional" box and put it in an Avalon style enclosure are not a big deal, but if you don't have measuring equipment and some experience with prior designs, it's not something I'd undertake lightly. I gather from your posts that what you're really looking for is a turn-key complete design, not something that you would have to engineer yourself. One straightforward possilbility would be to take one of the off the shelf Eton designs and adapt it to an Avalon style enclosure, if you have the wookworking skills and equipment to build the latter.

                      Best regards,

                      Jon




                      Earth First!
                      _______________________________
                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
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                      In Development...
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                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • TEK
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Oct 2002
                        • 1670

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        The woodworking involved in constructing the Avalon speakers is rather involved and equipment intensive. The front panels are are in the three to four inch thick range in most models.
                        I understand that the woodwork is not easy. But I think it worth it. And no, I do not plan to attemt doing this with my hand saw and hand drill...
                        But I think that if you have good drawings, and a good table mounted electrical saw that is able to cut in degrees you may be on your way.
                        Either that or by getting the difficult part done by a carpenter.

                        By the way, is the front baffel created by layers of MDF or some other material?
                        I know about two "methods" to create the facet design.
                        - Cutting MDF in angles and fit the pices together, like a 3D puzzle. This will give the correct design of the box at once. Done here:


                        - Build a quite square box with thick enough walls and cut off the edges as done here:


                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        But my personal preference, if I was intent on the appearance of the Monitor but better full range performance, would be to incorporate my M8 bookshelf design into that enclosure, scaling it up appropriately (about 24-26" tall, 12" wide, 14-15" deep; internal working volume should be about 32-24 liters).
                        That's an interesting idea. I might very well do just that. If so I will come back and request some more input later on, hopfully this forum will give me some support there.
                        Do you think this will be possible without altering the cross-over in any degree?

                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        Of all of Neil's designs, I think the standard Eidelon is the most interesting; I think if I was interested in doing a DIY Avalon, that would be my target.
                        How would you rate the Eidelon vs. the Opus Ceramique? I have seen from reviews that the Eidelon is very "picky" on the rest of the equipment and might demand quite large rooms. It seems that the build price would be in the same area.
                        Any favorites + or - with either of the designs?

                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        The minor voicing tweaks which might be necessary to take a design in a "conventional" box and put it in an Avalon style enclosure are not a big deal, but if you don't have measuring equipment and some experience with prior designs, it's not something I'd undertake lightly.
                        I do not currently have measuring equipment avaliable, but I do have access to resource person that have this. But of course, the best would be to use that as a "final test", and not a god solution to do a full cross-over development phase.

                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        I gather from your posts that what you're really looking for is a turn-key complete design, not something that you would have to engineer yourself.
                        Yes, you got that right. But I do want to build everything myself, including the crossover. I do not have any interest in bying a "kit" of any kind.

                        Originally posted by Jonmarsh
                        One straightforward possilbility would be to take one of the off the shelf Eton designs and adapt it to an Avalon style enclosure, if you have the wookworking skills and equipment to build the latter.
                        I find the idea about the M8 more tempting, but I'll be sure to check out the option.

                        Another little consern about creating the monitors in something else that the same type of elements used in the "soon to come Eidolon/Opus thing" is that they might be used as rear speakers in a HT setup, and the ideal would be that they had the same sound character.
                        But it's not that big a deal...


                        best regards, TEK
                        -TEK


                        Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15209

                          #13
                          Hello TEK,

                          By the way, is the front baffel created by layers of MDF or some other material?

                          The front panel is created by layers of MDF, which is NC routed. It wouldn't be impossible to create the bevels with a table saw, but it would certainly be tricky to replicate the angles consistently. This is the kind of problem where jigs and fixturing make the difference between success and a major headache.

                          If so I will come back and request some more input later on, hopfully this forum will give me some support there.
                          Do you think this will be possible without altering the cross-over in any degree?
                          This would be possible- one factor is the height you chose to set them up, though. As presently designed, they're optimized for a listening window on the woofer/tweeter axis and somewhat above; going lower than the woofer brings out a slight dip in the crossover region. This is reasonable assuming one wants to listen either sitting in a normal chair, or standing, perhaps at a slightly greater distance. The crossover phase characteristic was compensated to deal with the driver acoustical offset which occurs with a flat baffle. With an Avalon style baffle, the tweeter is moved backwards, and this would launch the listening axis upwards a little more, unless the crossover is adjusted a bit.



                          How would you rate the Eidelon vs. the Opus Ceramique? I have seen from reviews that the Eidelon is very "picky" on the rest of the equipment and might demand quite large rooms. It seems that the build price would be in the same area.
                          Any favorites + or - with either of the designs?
                          The Eidelon is an extended range design, with a relatively low cutoff. It should be out aways from the walls, so that the room boundary boost occurs at a sufficiently low frequency to not to put a bump in the response somewhere in the lower midbass. In this regard, it will often be thought to require a "larger room". It is also a reasonably revealing speaker- including of shortcomings with the source components and amplification. The Opus Ceramique and the standard Opus are quite different from each other, also- the ceramique uses a single Accuton woofer, with a downward firing port, while the standard Opus uses two woofers. The Ceramique has a "lighter" bottom end, and benefits from closer proximity to the walls.

                          This factor of room placement is not to be taken lightly- for example, the M8 design, analyzing for boundary interaction using a MathCAD document for three adjacent boundaries, can be shown to require some specific placement for optimum extension and smoothness. (Actually, this is true for ANY box speaker, but is very often neglected in setup). For the M8, this works out to 0.75 meter, 1.21 meter, and 1.96 meter from the three nearest boundaries- the choice of which boundary is which distance is the user varible. This follows the golden mean ratio, and distributes the boundary resonances, and results in the boundary lift working in a complementary manner to the LF roll off, which is a slightly over damped ported system tuned to 32 HZ.

                          A reasonable distance from boundaries is also necessary to reduce comb filtering effects, and destructive early reflections that impair imaging. The CARDAS site has some good guidlines for starting points for loudspeaker room positioning.

                          If you want a full range speaker with good dynamic range and LF extension, the Eidelon would be the way to go- but I can understand going with the smaller Opus configuration.

                          A configuration I've considered building as a "compact" floor standing speaker is similar to the Opus Ceramique, but combines the HiVi M8a woofer (MUCH less fragile and much less expensive!) with the C44 midrange and a modified Focal T120 for the top end. I have the drivers, but not the time at the moment...

                          I've gotten your mail and will be responding- and will cover a few more points from your post above, but I've got a date for dinner wtih my daughter!

                          Best regards,

                          Jon




                          Earth First!
                          _______________________________
                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • TEK
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 1670

                            #14
                            Thanks a lot for the response.
                            I have added a couple of notes and images about possible technique to get the facet angels correctly...

                            Enjoy the dinner with your daughter
                            I'm going to bed now, and I will take with me my 6 week old daughter laying on the couch beside me (so here mother could get some sleep :? )
                            It's night here, but we had my in-lows over, and there was coffee, not a very wise thing to drink late in the evening 8O
                            -TEK


                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                            Comment

                            • Lex
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Apr 2001
                              • 27461

                              #15
                              Either that or by getting the difficult part done by a carpenter.
                              a carpenter if you want 2 X 4s and joists. Try a GREAT cabinet maker, that's your ticket if you get frustrated yourself.

                              Lex
                              Doug
                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15209

                                #16
                                Ahh, six weeks old! I remember those days, though they were a long time ago- my daughter is 18, in her first year of college now. You have a lot to look forwards to!

                                And you were up rather late, considering the time of your responses! I work for a company based out of Munich, and have to talk with colleagues there frequently- the time difference to the US West coast is considerable, and why I'm in the office by 6:30AM most days!



                                I've done some cabinets with unusual combinations of angles....










                                but nothing using mutliple facets all out of 90 degrees such as the front of the Eidelon or Opus would require. I think it could be done, but I'd definitely have fun working up the enclosure plans and cutting diagrams in AutoCAD, and it would require hellaciously accurate wood cutting, to do it this way instead of laying up the front panel in layers. The latter would probably be more practical; each layer could be cut individually to the portion of the facet it must handle, (better than 1/32nd accuracy, I think), then assembled. The final result would still need to be planed to a flat surface- maybe a large rigid flat sanding surface, such as a small piece of marble, or a planed hardwood board. It would require some careful hand work in that case. Then there's the veneering.

                                We'll discuss this some more....


                                Best regards,

                                Jon




                                Earth First!
                                _______________________________
                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • TEK
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Oct 2002
                                  • 1670

                                  #17
                                  he, he, yes, it was rather late.
                                  Impossible to go to sleep with lots of coffe inside 8O Guess it was about 4-5 in the morning before I finally started to be tired.

                                  And then, 6 o'clock, Karoline (my daughter) wake up for some food, and I'm all awake again :LOL:

                                  About the design, I think as you. There are two ways to do it. Either by start off with a big square pice, and then cut off the facet, or by cutting the part so that they fit correctly together.

                                  Of course you could use the TransLam technique (as this guy http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kidder...slam_alpha.htm; ), but I do not think that is actual for me.

                                  He have also created a fasett speaker. I'll se if I may find out how he did it.

                                  It also done on the "GeerS eVe II" speaker, by Edgar Beers, and the "Andromeda" speaker by Tony Gee. I'll see if I can gather some good ideas.

                                  Nice speaker by the way :-)

                                  TEK
                                  -TEK


                                  Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15209

                                    #18
                                    Yes, the EveII does strike me as close (cosmetically) to what you're looking for. However, as you probably understand if you've looked at some of the posts on the M8, the behavior of the Scanspeak midwoofers above 800 Hz is somewhat compromised, IMO.



                                    I do like the cherry finish and the engraved binding plates...

                                    And Tony Gee must be a pretty busy guy.....

                                    Hope you get some sleep tonight! :LOL:



                                    -Jon




                                    Earth First!
                                    _______________________________
                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • TEK
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Oct 2002
                                      • 1670

                                      #19
                                      I'm quite sure I will sleep well tonight :-)

                                      The "GeerS eVe II" is a quite large speaker. A bit to large for me.
                                      But yeah, it's quite nice.

                                      I will for now start to set the focus on the Monitor project. I think I'll attemt to adapt your speaker design into the box.

                                      However I will continue to plan for the Eidolon/Opus project as well.

                                      I see, form various post, that the M8 is a design with is targed to be "better than Avalon Eclips".
                                      I also note that you do not use any of the Accuton elements in the M8 design, and in your post above you say:
                                      A configuration I've considered building as a "compact" floor standing speaker is similar to the Opus Ceramique, but combines the HiVi M8a woofer (MUCH less fragile and much less expensive!) with the C44 midrange and a modified Focal T120 for the top end. I have the drivers, but not the time at the moment...
                                      Do you think that the Accuton elements have a negative cost/use price, or is this elements that you think is just better, or is it just that you have those elements available?

                                      best regards,
                                      Trond-Eirik
                                      -TEK


                                      Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                      Comment

                                      • Dennis H
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2002
                                        • 3791

                                        #20
                                        Kidder's site is interesting. He shows the easiest way to make the angled cabinet fronts on his 4eleven speaker. All you need is a good Skil saw and an edge guide. You can do an angle much shallower than 45 degrees, so the baffle doesn't have to be super thick, and still get about the same visual effect.



                                        Aside from the speakers I love this quote. While he's talking about building a fence for his table saw, I think it could be applied to most DIY endeavors. Gotta be doing it because you love it, not because you want to save money. :LOL:

                                        "When I saw that they cost from $250-$300 I decided to build my own. With the help of my talented and kind father-in-law (thanks Butch!) and about 100 hours of hard work, I was able to create something that is every bit as good"

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15209

                                          #21
                                          Do you think that the Accuton elements have a negative cost/use price, or is this elements that you think is just better, or is it just that you have those elements available?
                                          This is an interesting and reasonable question. BTW, the 2nd version of the 8" two way book shelf used the Eton 880 and the Accuton C23. Let's look at some of the driver parameters and design considerations- and see what may make sense.

                                          First, let's take a quick look at the Accuton C220-T6 8" woofer and the HiVi M8a. I do have a deserved reputation as being a bit of a fanatic over high performance drivers, but I also believe in bang for the buck, and not throwing money away.

                                          The C2220-T6 is an aluminum ceramic cone 8" woofer. The cone mass is about 32 grams. The HiVi M8a is an aluminum-magnesium 8" woofer (actually 8.5" frame), with a cone mass of 35 grams.

                                          The primary cone breakup mode of the C220 is about 3.4 kHz, the primary cone breakup mode of the M8a is 2.6 kHz.

                                          The compliance of the C220 suspension is 1.9 mm/N, with a rated Fs of 20.4 Hz.

                                          The compliance of the HiVi M8a suspension is 0.77 mm/N, with a rated Fs of 30 Hz.

                                          The Qts of the C220 is rated at 0.272, with a Qms of 4.49 and Qes of 0.29; BL product is 9.1, and Xmax is 5.2 mm.

                                          The Qts of the M8a is rated at 0.42, with a Qms of 4.90 and Qes of 0.47 ; BL product is 9.6, and Xmax is 5.8 mm.

                                          The compliance of the C220 is a bit higher than ideal for a ported driver, but the rated Qts, if correct, is rather too low for a sealed box, unless it's used primarily as a midbass.


                                          With it's higher breakup mode, one might expect the C220 to be a better choice for a two way system, but like the 8" SEAS Excel driver, it has a large dip in the response (5 dB) between 1 kHz and 2 kHz, leaving the optimum upper crossover point lower than expected. For a three way system, there is no advantage to the higher breakup mode either. Overall sensitivity is fairly close between the drivers. The HiVi can be used in either sealed or ported systems, and it's practical to shoot for substantial output down to about 32 in a reasonable size ported box. The out of phase impedance peak below resonance is reasonably well controlled, because of the lower suspension compliance.

                                          Both drivers have a flat spider, and a fairly well designed pole peice and gap which provides symmetrical flux distribution, judging from the distortion numbers Accuton claims and what I've measured for the HiVi.

                                          The C220 is priced at a little over $400 USD, and the M8a at a little under $100. This spec, unlike the others, is a huge difference. But if one has the money and the desire, I'm sure the C220 will make a nice speaker. But for about the same money as one C220 I can get the drivers for one side of the Arvo Part dipole design we're experimenting with. This is a big difference.

                                          Regarding the midrange driver, the C44 is both less expensive and substantially flatter between 500 Hz and 10 kHz than the C79. This is true of the actual measurements, which are not quite as nice looking as the published Accuton curves (this was also the case for the C23 and the C12 in my experience). My own measurements were done also on large baffles, to minimize the baffle step issues which can affect the low end of the midrange driver's performance. Below are the Accuton published measurements.







                                          C79


                                          f you want a low order crossover relatively low in frequency (say 250 - 350 Hz), then the low frequency extension of the C79 would make it the preferred choice. Still, you would need some substantial response shaping in the crossover to flatten it's performance. Reasonable range of operation might be 350 Hz to 3 kHz.




                                          C44


                                          If mating smoothly to the tweeter of choice is a main concern, then the low cone mass, small diameter, and upper range extension of the C44 is a clear asset. Lower cost, too. Reasonable range of operation might be 800 Hz to 5 kHz, with no special efforts required to suppress the upper end breakup.

                                          Considering dispersion issues related to cone size, anything below 1.25 kHz for an 8" driver is fairly optimal, as long as the driver is still operating pistonically. (this is the equivalent of running a 4.5" midrange at a 2.5 kHz crossover).

                                          With the C44, an 800 Hz or 900 Hz crossover to the woofer is quite reasonable, and keeps you out of the area where you'd have to compensate the midrange driver for baffle step effects.

                                          Regarding the tweeter choice, my experience has been that the metal grille used on the Accuton tweeters does cause some reflection issues, resulting in ripples in the response. The C23 can be made to sound fairly good with a bit of effort, but I honestly prefer the Vifa XT25 over it. And if you restrict the range to 2.5 kHz or higher, I further prefer the Focal T120dx2, with the diffuser removed (this diffusor creates a better measuring off axis curve, but does so by working as an acoustic resonantor- adds a bit of hardness to the extreme top end. IMO it sounds better removed) The T120TD5 should sound pretty similar.

                                          BTW, the Focals are only about $80.

                                          Please remember, these are just my observations and opinions- others may see things quite differently.

                                          Regards,

                                          Jon




                                          Earth First!
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                                          Comment

                                          • TEK
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Oct 2002
                                            • 1670

                                            #22
                                            Hey, again.

                                            You argue your case very good!

                                            If I have understood you currectly, so what you basicly is saying is that;
                                            The Account drivers may be a little better, but mutch of the improvment is in frequency ranges that is not used (controlled by the crossover).

                                            and

                                            The Account drivers might be a little better, even for the actual use, but the different in price vs. the sound/technical difference does not compare. Then especially when you look at the frequency area they are used in.

                                            Looking forward to get the email replay with details, so I may try to see if I'm able to produce some sketches of the speaker...

                                            BTW, I currently have B&W N805, do you think your design will be able to match or outclass the B805's? (I'm assuming you have heard them)

                                            best regards, Trond-Eirik
                                            -TEK


                                            Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15209

                                              #23
                                              Hi Tek,

                                              Your interpretation of my response is correct; perhaps I'm a little too long in the writing because I prefer to deal with the information and facts, not just my summary.

                                              As you realize, in the case of the woofer I'm comparing an Accuton and a non Accuton woofer (with 4 - 1 price ratio) with very similar performance;

                                              In the case of the midrange, I'm comparing two different Accuton models (the C44, which I prefer), and the C79, used in the Avalons.

                                              With regards to the tweeter, I've bought and used Accutons as well as Focals and many others- with a 2.5 to one difference in price, the Accuton doesn't have an advantage (I think) in performance.


                                              Also, remember there are marketing reasons that go into speaker designs. So, for Avalon, having an all ceramic speaker system is as much a marketing statement as a design statement - and might be perceived to be "diluted" by having a non-ceramic woofer that works just as well. Marketing is a tricky subject, you know! :LOL:

                                              That the Accuton and HiVi 8" woofers are better overall than the 8/9" Eton 8-880 (used in the standard Opus) is unquestioned in my mind, having used and built systems with both. If you'd like an explanation, I'll provide it, but it all boils down to Xmax, dynamic range, and where the first cone mode is (which isn't always an obvious peak).

                                              Well, off to breakfast with my neglected girl friend (daughter is still sleeping in, before she goes to work later).

                                              Best regards,

                                              -Jon




                                              Earth First!
                                              _______________________________
                                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
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                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • TEK
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Oct 2002
                                                • 1670

                                                #24
                                                Hey

                                                No, your respons is not to long. It was a very good respons. It also explaned your point of view.
                                                However, I'm still having a lot to learn, and I wanted to be sure I understood you correctly.

                                                Marketing is a difficult issue, thats for sure. Adding more to the price might actually get you to sell more...
                                                -TEK


                                                Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15209

                                                  #25
                                                  B&W makes one of the better large company line of speakers. I used to be co-owner of a dealership in the 70's which sold B&W speakers. However, I wasn't always convinced they did the best implementations with their drivers; I built a set of speakers using the driver complement from the DM6 which worked fairly nicely in comparison, partly because of eliminating the autoformer for the woofer, and also changing the crossovers (starting from scratch, actually) and the LF arrangments with regards to positioning from floor, system, Q, etc. This was my first experience with a Kevlar cone driver (the DM6 midrange unit).

                                                  The Nautilus series represents B&W's best technology; for instance, in that series they don't use metal core inductors or electroytic capacitors, which many of the other speaker models have had in the past.

                                                  The N805 uses a 6-1/2" kevlar woofer crossoed over to a Nautilus style tweeter at 3 kHz. I haven't seen a 6-1/2" Kevlar driver yet that is pistonic to 5 kHz, which would be necessary with a conventional 4th order L-R crossover at 3 kHz to avoid any audible issues from cone modes. But I haven't tested the N805 driver, so perhaps it does that- I'd be surprised, though. The other issue is dispersion- there's a definite gap between the dispersion of a 6-1/2" mid woofer at 3 kHz versus a tweeter- so what generally happens is that below the crossover point there's a dip in the off axis response, and at the crossover point there's a slight rise in the response due to the lower range tweeter "flare". A good way to test for this is to plot polar response curves as Avalon does at a number of discrete frequencies, being sure to cover the crossover range thoroughly. Another way is to run horizontal sweeps at 10 degree or 15 degree intervals from on axis to 60 degrees off axis. It is normal to see a marked drop in the speaker response above 12 kHz or so do to the limitaions of dispersion in tweeters, but ideally the response in the crossover regions should remain very flat to 45 degrees off axis at least. B&W doesn't seem to provide that kind of documentation of performance on their site, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

                                                  But another possibly relevant point, have you listended to any Avalon models? How did your interest in them come about?

                                                  I've turned on some of my colleagues in Europe and Singapore to Avalon; they previously listened to the likes of KEF, B&W, and other similar levels of products. They have agreed there is a striking difference in the performance, but then the complete system setup is important- it's necessary to have a dealer who will demonstrate them with good equipment. There is a Norwegian dealer - it might be interesting if you can meet with them just to hear if this is really what you want to get into, in terms of sonic character. With speakers like thse I don't recommend conventional solid state gear, for example, or midrange digital sources. Tubed gear and zero feedback solid state gear are quite synergistic. Well, let's face it, that kind of equipment benefits any good speaker!

                                                  This is not to say you can't get enjoyable results with more conventional amplifiers and sources, but you will have some issues which will limit the overall performance.
                                                  You might see what the Norwegian dealer recommends.

                                                  Audio Freaks 47-5-590-1730

                                                  peterd@online.no


                                                  Best regards,

                                                  Jon




                                                  Earth First!
                                                  _______________________________
                                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
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                                                  Modula MT XE
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                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • TEK
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                    • 1670

                                                    #26
                                                    The 805 is IMO a very good speaker. In my setup I get a full 3D soundstage, and the sound is excellent. It is very good placement of music instrument and the clearity is excellent. But also they deliver what's beeing fed into them.
                                                    I have matched mines with a REL Storm III sub, and when the crossover is set corretly, it's sounding really wounderful.

                                                    But, of course there some but's... On load levels the top is getting a bit to edgy.
                                                    Also, of course there is not very mutch low level bass, but the REL handles that quite good.
                                                    However, I have also done a A/B compare with the Nautilus 803, and while the tonal balance was very mutch the same, I actually discovered that some part of the middel-tone (not low bass, but low middel) actually seems to be missing on the 805.

                                                    So, I want an upgrade. However, to upgrade to 803 is quite expence, and I'll rather want to go for the 802.
                                                    But now we're starting to talk serious money. More mony than my moral think I should spend on stereo equitment.
                                                    Of course I could change the brand, but this also have to do with the rest of my speakers as well as design.

                                                    At the same time I'm having some spare time, and I started to look into the DIY. I have always liked mechanics, wood-working and fumble around with stuff, so this seems quite ideal. After looking around on the net I was quite astonished over the finish quality the DIY people manage to obtain.

                                                    The finish for some of the products seems to be right up there with the items in the shop.

                                                    I also need a couple of smaller speakers to replace the old philips speakers on my work room. And I started to think, why dont give it a try?

                                                    The end of the story is that I still want to replace my main speakers with something else. It should be a full range speaker. I do belive in a separate woofer for the lower frequencey, but it do not have room for a very large speaker and the WAF must be high ;>-)) Also for my self, I do not want those square doll boxes.

                                                    I was thinking about the ProArc 2.5 clones. Their good documented and a lot of people have made them, but it does not match the design criteria (even looking good) and I actually want some classes up.
                                                    I guess the target is B&W 802 sound quality.

                                                    After some searching, I came over the Avalon speaker range. They seemed to have anything I might want in a speaker.
                                                    It also seems that the sound signature of thease speakers would be according to my preferences.

                                                    I have head the Avatar model, but not the other models.

                                                    I'm already in contact with Peter at AudioFreaks to gather some more information. Amoung other if there is somewhere in my region where I may listen to the other speakers in the range.

                                                    About the electronics. I know that this type of speakers demands a lot. I do think that my current equipment will do for a while, but not very long.
                                                    But also there it's DIY :-) I think I'm looking for a nice long run of pre-amp and power amp DIY work in the future to come, and I really like it!

                                                    But as said, for the first round I'll have to get some practice on something smaller, that's where the Monitor look-alikes is coming into play...

                                                    PS: I'm manly referring to the B&W speakers because their the ones I know best.


                                                    Regards, Trond-Eirik
                                                    -TEK


                                                    Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Hank
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Jul 2002
                                                      • 1345

                                                      #27
                                                      "...my new wife didn't like the looks of some prototype speakers I'd built ..."

                                                      Jon, there was an ominous, hidden message for you there.

                                                      "I know Hank won't let me off the hook until I finish those, and since I have the 16 6-1/2" drivers sitting in my closet, it behooves me to get busy on those!"

                                                      Jon, you've got that right! Like a Pit Bull's jaw locked on your ankle.
                                                      BTW, we have a couple of teleconferences with our light engine supplier in Germany every week. What's tough is the Orient - night phone conferences - yuck.

                                                      TEK, that precision angle-cutting saw jig is, ahh....ummmm... interesting.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ThomasW
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 10934

                                                        #28
                                                        How to build an Avalon loudspeaker.

                                                        Start with a few layers of mdf/hdf and a fairly large table saw



                                                        Here's how they create some of the facets



                                                        There are a few more pics on the factory tour webpages




                                                        theAudioWorx
                                                        Klone-Audio

                                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15209

                                                          #29
                                                          Under what circumstances did you compare your 805's to the other models? Regarding the weak low middle tones, this is a factor which can be due to room setup and speaker placement- did you compare them in the identical position?

                                                          I mentioned this factor before, but I'll post some graphs to illustrate. The setup and room boundary issues can affect more than the low bass, and more than just a "boost" in the bass- it can also cause large dips in upper bass or low mids.

                                                          Imagine a poor placement such as my daughter might recomend, which looks nice to her with her furniture:





                                                          This is a "convenient" location, but it is too close to the walls, and has two dimensions almost the same. These factors cause a boost in the low mid bass, and a big concentrated null.


                                                          Here's another setup after some discussion and experimentation, but still not optimized. Elaine likes this position even better, because it's closer to the wall, takes less space:




                                                          Two significant dips, and still a problem with a fat low mid bass. This is the sort of response profile that would give ported speakers a bad name, but the modeled system is actaully a sealed box with a Q of 0.577 (Bessel alignment).



                                                          Here is the calculated response for a ported 8" two way with something close to optimum location from the three closest boundaries, using the golden mean for the ratio's between distances:



                                                          Perhaps not "perfect", but a very good result considering the room influence.

                                                          (these calculations done with my custom MathCAD doc for boundary analysis - same basis as calculations shown in Avalon manuals)


                                                          Which brings up the Avalon manuals- downloading and reading isn't a bad idea- there's some good information about setup- it's valid for B&W's, not just Avalons!

                                                          Last, a point many of us posting at this forum have discussed- DIY is not not really to save money, it's more an outlet for creative energy. It's a lot of work, and a lot of expense when you consider the tools required. So, all of us are a little bit crazy in some sense.

                                                          If you can build an existing design which is completely debugged and is known to you to provide the sonics you desire, then you can save money- but you have to be careful that the design you build is the one you want- that isn't so easy to find out, unlike going into a shop and listening to a commercial speaker.

                                                          There are those who sell plans and kits, and of course there is some warranty regarding the functionality of the kit, but not that you will in all regards like the sound- unless you've already heard it.

                                                          Here, we're just a collection of folks sharing ideas, techniques, designs and opinions- rarely do the guys looking to sell DIY kits drop in here; you can find them at the Madisound and PE boards, though.


                                                          Best regards,

                                                          Jon




                                                          Earth First!
                                                          _______________________________
                                                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15209

                                                            #30
                                                            Jon, there was an ominous, hidden message for you there.
                                                            Aint that the truth- hindsight is 20-20.

                                                            There's a quaint old saying that though oversimplifying things, holds a lot of truth:

                                                            Men get married, expecting the woman won't change.
                                                            Women get married, expecting the man will change.

                                                            Divorced in 1990. What a surprise. :roll:




                                                            Jon, you've got that right! Like a Pit Bull's jaw locked on your ankle.
                                                            Hey, big guy, can you let up a little? The socks are getting kinda frayed, and I'd rather save the money for veneer and glue, than buy more socks! :LOL:



                                                            BTW, we have a couple of teleconferences with our light engine supplier in Germany every week. What's tough is the Orient - night phone conferences - yuck.
                                                            Yeah, isn't that the truth! Now were in the planning stages for setting up a new facility in Raleigh, and though management is giving lipservice to the concept that this is just an expansion facility and San Jose will go on, the new President doesn't like San Jose at all, is still living in Detroit, and has relatives in NC. So does the CFO, Miriam. And our lease is up in three years or so here.

                                                            Right now, the calls to Taiwan (when necessary) aren't too bad, at the end of the day. But if we were on the East coast, it would be a bear.

                                                            Kidder's site and photo's re woodworking looks interesting. Anyway, it's got me scratching my head, to the point that I suspect I know what I'll be doing after the AP's and the Line arrays are finished.

                                                            But Tomas raises a good point- where will I put them? :LOL:

                                                            -Jon




                                                            Earth First!
                                                            _______________________________
                                                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Eduardo
                                                              Moderator emeritus
                                                              • Jun 2002
                                                              • 1258

                                                              #31
                                                              Now were in the planning stages for setting up a new facility in Raleigh
                                                              Where in Raleigh, if your allowed to tell? Please let me know if you ever come and we can meet for drinks or dinner.




                                                              http://home.nc.rr.com/ejimenez

                                                              Comment

                                                              • TEK
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Oct 2002
                                                                • 1670

                                                                #32
                                                                Hey Jon...

                                                                The B&W's (805 vs. 803) was located just beside of each other. Doing a A/B test just switching the cabel between the speakers. So the room placement should not be the problem.

                                                                By the way, thanks for the graph and the explanation.

                                                                I have been reading quite a bit about room placement already, but I'll check the Avalon manuals and see if something new pop's up. The main problem about room acoustics is that I'm not able to put diffusers and stuff like that on the wall. Guess by who
                                                                But, it's our living room, so I do understand her...

                                                                Of course, DIY might be very expensive, at least if you have to buy all the tools. However, if you got the original design of a speaker and the same drivers, and you are able to build it for 1/5 of the purchase price, I'll expect to save some money...
                                                                But sure, it will not sound exactly like the ones in the shop, but it might sound pritty damn good
                                                                And if there is something you dont like, you can hange it :LOL:

                                                                But however, I do want to build myself a couple of speakers!
                                                                And I do not think its quite impossible, even if the design isn't a square box

                                                                By the way, the design for your lates version of he M8. Has it been published? I would love to have a look at it.

                                                                regards TEK
                                                                -TEK


                                                                Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15209

                                                                  #33
                                                                  You have mail.....


                                                                  -Jon




                                                                  Earth First!
                                                                  _______________________________
                                                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Hank
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Jul 2002
                                                                    • 1345

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Who has mail? Just kidding.

                                                                    No Jon, I won't let up, as I'm' living the line arrays vicariously through you. Remember, my two college kids who forgot to save money all summer and came to me as the semester was starting with $$$ requests. My son came over two days ago and casually mentioned that he needed a little help with this month's frat dues.
                                                                    And he's doing an intership in DC next semester, so naturally he won't be able to get a "paying" job.... I'm looking for sympathy here, boys.

                                                                    You are already thinking about a "next" project after line arrays? You mean they won't be the ULITMATE? You mean there's more? You mean there's no END point? You mean I'M DOOMED???
                                                                    Ohhhh Noooo...

                                                                    Tell management that they should move the company to Heaven on earth, otherwise known as Austin, Texas. Everyone who sees it is in awe. Movie and TV images of flatlands, tumbleweeds, dust, and oilwells in backyards, ten gallon hats are all shattered. Highest number of books read per capita in the nation for example.
                                                                    Come on down, I'll buy you a tequila.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • ThomasW
                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 10934

                                                                      #35
                                                                      TEK

                                                                      Here are some projects you might find interesting

                                                                      Gydolon



                                                                      Gydolon MKII




                                                                      theAudioWorx
                                                                      Klone-Audio

                                                                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • TEK
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Oct 2002
                                                                        • 1670

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Thanks...

                                                                        I'm checking this out. He have a lot of info I think, but is currently on holiday.

                                                                        He has for sure made some nice speakers

                                                                        If you know any other I would be interested in them as well...
                                                                        -TEK


                                                                        Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • David Meek
                                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 8938

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Lex
                                                                          a carpenter if you want 2 X 4s and joists. Try a GREAT cabinet maker, that's your ticket if you get frustrated yourself.
                                                                          Absolutely, fella! Having done both, I can attest to the fact that cabinetry is a part of carpentry, but just because someone is a carpenter does not make him a cabinet maker. To tackle something like the Eidolon, I'd recommend that whomever is doing the actual cutting have at least a compound miter saw and preferrably a double-bevel sliding compound miter saw. Otherwise you run the very real risk (and probability) of dissimilar cut angles and consequently, non-symmetric joints. I use a radial-arm saw which has the capability of a compound miter, but I wouldn't want to tackle this job with it. Speaking generally, wiith the increase in angular force towards the end of the single long arm on a radial-arm saw, you have to deal with a loss in absolute accuracy on longer cuts over those available from the shorter more heavily-armed sliding miter saw.

                                                                          I haven't built a speaker yet, but it's definitely on my short list of "things to do". And yes, that Eidolon cabinet just screams "Try ME on for size!" At 150 lbs. each, and with dimensions of 43" x 12" x 17", I'm figuring multiple layers of MDF/HDF at least on the front and sides.

                                                                          Jon, are the enclosures for each driver completely separate, or are they in an "open" cabinet, or a combination? Looking at their website, this is a bottom-port design with the speaker connects (and the X-over?) mounted on the bottom. What would the ramifications be in moving the connects/X-over to a more conventional rear-mount?

                                                                          Dammit, I wish I hadn't read this thread! I've already got two projects to finish and don't need to get my head into a third! Augggggggh. :uhoh:

                                                                          Seriously tho', this is a cool thread.! :T

                                                                          PS, Hi Tek, welcome to the Guide.

                                                                          PPS, Yeah guys, Austin would be a great place to relocate. Come on down!




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                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15209

                                                                            #38
                                                                            :?

                                                                            Mixed feelings about the Gydolon. Very nice cosmetically. However, the actual construction lacks the rigidity inherent in a "true" Avalon approach. The front panel won't be as stiff, but it will be a bit easier to move a around.

                                                                            The crossover for the Gydolon is rather simple- perhaps too simple?

                                                                            While I would always recommend listening as the final arbiter over just measurements, the measurements shown for the Gydolon raise some questions in my mind- and the overall smoothness doesn't match the MkII M8 made with the same Eton woofer and the Accuton C23 tweeter- in only a two way configuration. But you know, making a really good three way is not an easy thing, either.

                                                                            Interesting, nonetheless- how'd you dig this one up, Thomas? :?:

                                                                            -Jon




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                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15209

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Hi Dennis,

                                                                              Yeah, I know the feeling- I've got several things in the works- besides the AP's and the line array, a new DAC, and the XMOD Aragon update- a brand new non-feedback design to replace the Aragon output boards in models like the 8002, 8008, etc.

                                                                              So another interesting speaker project is NOT what I need right now! :LOL:

                                                                              Seriously, having the connectors on the bottom makes things easier to hide and more cosmetically attractive- but there's no reason that you can't move them to a more convenient location on the lower back.

                                                                              Re the midrange, the C79 is an open back cone driver. It requires it's own subenclosure. Though the C44 which I like for a "small" Avalon klone is closed back, I never rely on the tweeter or mid faceplate for LF sealing integrity- I always put a back on it- this is even the case with my M8 bookshelf. (yes, I'm a bit of a fanatic in some regards).

                                                                              OTOH, the port is a different matter- to tune the big Eton woofer nicely, and have some decent output level, you need a reasonable length port, and it's hard to get that front to back, partcularly with thick cabinet walls. What's odd to me about the Eidelon is that it appears to be only a three inch port for the woofer - which if so, IMO, is too small, regarding issues of port velocity and dynamic range. What the heck.....

                                                                              Were I doing this, I'd probably do something like the Gydolon MkII, and use two forward firing M8a woofers, with a porting arrangement like the Eidolon. It would probably be a 3.5 way, since I'd bring in one woofer more like baffle step comp. But then, with the intended crossover frequency (800 Hz?), they would both be in that range, so might as well save on the crossover.

                                                                              But you'd need an Aragon or Ayre to drive a dual M8a box- LF impedance would be in the 3 ohm range in the midbass. :LOL:

                                                                              Regards,

                                                                              Jon




                                                                              Earth First!
                                                                              _______________________________
                                                                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                                              Natalie P
                                                                              M8ta
                                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                                              Isiris
                                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                                              SMJ
                                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                                              Calliope
                                                                              Ardent D

                                                                              In Development...
                                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                              Modula PWB
                                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • David Meek
                                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 8938

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Oh, just saw the Gydolon page. The finished product looks very nice, but again, doing an open-hand cut on those angles is risky. The interior layer of board looks like garden variety press-board!?!?!? How sonically inert is that? Sonics aside, that wouldn't be my choice for the interior cabinet layer. Unfortunately Babelfish doesn't do a Norwegian to English translation so I couldn't read the text. Anything interesting in it?

                                                                                Dennis? :B




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                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • David Meek
                                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 8938

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  having the connectors on the bottom makes things easier to hide and more cosmetically attractive- but there's no reason that you can't move them to a more convenient location on the lower back.
                                                                                  Agreed it's more attractive, but tipping 150 lbs. of speaker every so often just to check the bindings? Whew, my aching back.

                                                                                  Oh, for the record, I'm suffering from wood-clamp envy!




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                                                                                  • TEK
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                                    • 1670

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by David Meek
                                                                                    Unfortunately Babelfish doesn't do a Norwegian to English translation so I couldn't read the text. Anything interesting in it?
                                                                                    HEY MAN!
                                                                                    That's NOT Norwegian :evil:
                                                                                    I think it's Dutch (or maybe Belgian)...

                                                                                    And I should know... 8)
                                                                                    -TEK


                                                                                    Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • David Meek
                                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 8938

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to offend.




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                                                                                      • TEK
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Oct 2002
                                                                                        • 1670

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        David:

                                                                                        Thanks for the welcome message
                                                                                        No offend taken for the language, just had to comment
                                                                                        But it sure is a great thread yeah

                                                                                        Hei Jon...

                                                                                        About the port, I'm not sure, but maybe this give you some ideas?
                                                                                        Do'nt tell me mutch, but then you might have a little more experience ops:

                                                                                        From an interview with Neil Patel:

                                                                                        Frankly, I never thought I'd see an Avalon product with a ported enclosure.
                                                                                        Most people hearing it have a hard time believing it's vented. You get the sense of weight, but it also has speed. The stored energy is at a minimum. We learned a lot from the Osiris [Avalon's flagship -- RH] in reducing the noise floor and reducing energy storage, particularly in the bass. That means inventing new magnetics technologies that would fit in the size cabinet we're using. All those things add up to a sense of weight and speed in a non-sealed enclosure.

                                                                                        For the whole interview goto http://www.avalonacoustics.com/revu-fi-eid.html
                                                                                        (it's a review followed by the interview)
                                                                                        -TEK


                                                                                        Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • TEK
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Oct 2002
                                                                                          • 1670

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Some tech info about the ediolon;
                                                                                          (gathered from various places)

                                                                                          Eidolon review Fi Magazine 12/1998:
                                                                                          (http://www.avalonacoustics.com/revu-fi-eid.html)
                                                                                          - Single pair of input terminals (no bi-wiring)
                                                                                          - Eidolon is designed to perform optimally with its grilles on
                                                                                          - Entire faceted structure is a solid block made from nine layers of material built with constrained layer damping techniques. (In constrained layer damping construction, thin layers of compliant material sandwiched between harder materials absorb energy by molecular friction.) In addition, each layer is 1.6 times the thickness of the adjacent layer, following the Golden Section ratios.
                                                                                          - sensitivity is specified at 87 dB at 2.83 V and 1 meter
                                                                                          - nominal impedance is 4 ohms
                                                                                          - ported design (down-firing), Avalon prefer the term "non-sealed" ;-)
                                                                                          - Three-way, floor-standing loudspeaker
                                                                                          - researching the Thiele-Small parameters, and found that by adding variables such as networks and baffling the volume in the box, we could get as good a transient response as a sealed box while still extending the system's low-frequency response
                                                                                          - A non-sealed design also lets us get into cancellation of floor-loading effects

                                                                                          EIDOLON Review: STEREOPLAY 2/2002
                                                                                          (http://www.avalonacoustics.com/revu-sp-eid1.html)
                                                                                          Inside picture: http://www.avalonacoustics.com/revu-sp-eid3.html
                                                                                          It would have been nice if someone who understands German might read trough this article.


                                                                                          Avalon A. product blade:
                                                                                          Official designer:Neil Patel
                                                                                          Drivers: 1" tweeter (Accuton C-12?)
                                                                                          3.5" midrange (Accuton C-79?)
                                                                                          11" woofer (Eton ?)
                                                                                          Frequency
                                                                                          response: 26 Hz - 34 kHz +/-1.5 dB (anechoic)
                                                                                          Sensitivity: 87 dB, 2.83V, 1m
                                                                                          Impedance: 4 ohms nominal, 3.6 ohms minimum
                                                                                          Recommended
                                                                                          amplifier power: 50W to 500W
                                                                                          Weight: 150 pounds each (68 kg)
                                                                                          size H/W/D in inc:43.5/12/17
                                                                                          size H/W/D in cm:110/30/42


                                                                                          Please feel free to add any information you might have...
                                                                                          (for example cross-over design and so on )
                                                                                          -TEK


                                                                                          Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

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