Arvo, Orion, Phoenix.... ???

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  • sfdoddsy
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2000
    • 496

    Arvo, Orion, Phoenix.... ???

    After doing a little test with a baffle and some spare drivers, I am keen enough on the possibilities of dipole speakers along the lines of the Arvo Part, Linkwitz Orion, Phoenic or even the Audio Artistry Beethoven.

    The question is which one.

    I have the SEAS Millemium tweeters, four SEAS 8 inch woofers and I just picked up four Focal 10 inch aluminium woofers very cheap on eBay. I'm still tosiing up between Adire DPL12s and Stryke AVs for the subs.

    Since I have the drivers, my initial though was to go all out and do a Beethoven type four way, using a digital crossover/EQ, which I also have.

    But I've been looking also at the Part and the Orion and thinking maybe the Beethoven is overkill.

    Both the Part and the Orion have the sides to extend the baffle width, but I was wondering what you guys think of your design choices now that you have had a chance to check out the Orion?

    In particular, SL has gone away from the MTM mid combo to just one 8 inch, and he is using a separate H frame construction for the woofers.

    All thoughts welcome.

    I have an EBS Shiva for HT style deep bass, should it be needed.

    Sorry to start another dipole thread, but at least this one isn't an array type situation.

    Steve




    Steve's DIY Dipoles
    Steve's OB Journey
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15272

    #2
    Hey Steve,

    You'll find that a lot of us here don't think there can possibly be too many dipole speaker threads!

    There are a lot of interesting points you raise, and my first and most realistic response is that there are no hard and firm "right" answers or "wrong" answers regarding your possible choices.

    Having built a number of MTM's as well as MT's, and even systems like an MTMW, and a WMTMW, I'd still make no specific recommendation barring understanding a person's size, cost, and performance goals.

    I think the direction of Linkwitz's Orion is a big step forward from some of his earlier designs, but that's in large measure because I applaud the use of the Excel driver over the Scanspeak kevlar drivers. I've used the Scanspeaks also, but never over 800 Hz, because of cone modes they have.



    The impedance plots give the game away, and multiple nearfield sweeps show where the cone behavior diverges from pistonic.






    If I understand his goals for the Orion, "bang for the buck" as well as greater refinement and resolution were big priorities. The SEAS has very good distortion characteristics and good Xmax, and excellent cone behavior. But it doesn't come cheap, and the decision to go with an MT configuration instead of an MTM seems a very reasonable compromise.

    Another factor is that MTM's inherently get a bit squirrelly in the vertical lobing of frequency response. Just take a pair of 8's or 7's and measure them as you would a single driver full range- and look at the center response, versus stepping off the vertical axis in 5 degree increments. Comb filter effects due to path length differences become evident pretty quickly due to the minimum spacing possible, depending on the decision to actually locate the tweeter in between, or the simple physical limits of the center to center distance for the driver. This has to be taken into account for the crossover frequency and slope, as you'd not like this behavior to be evident in the listening window- assuming you want one as "wide" as +/- 10 degrees or better.... (you may note my tongue slightly in my cheek)).

    The reality is that most speakers don't have a very consistent vertical window for even +/- 15 degrees, and an MTM with a typical 2 kHz or higher crossover just makes this worse.

    Using a single 8" down to 120 Hz and just a pair of 10's below that does, as Linkwitz is quite up front about, limit the low end extension and dynamic range. However, considering his goals and the overall system tradeoffs, this seems reasonable.

    One point to keep in mind, in my experience and that of some reviewers, is that becuase dipole systems usualy lack a bass bump or boost due to room interaction which box systems have, they don't have the slight "loudness" compensation which an elevated portion of the bass contributes. So, there's a tendency to crank them up a bit to get the loudness close to realistic levels- closer, in fact, than one may do for a conventioanl box. Depending on how you listen, and your personal taste, this may or may not be a factor to consider.

    My own experience is that as I reduce the colorations and distortion inherent in the system (speakers included), I tend to listen at louder levels because I enjoy it more- and it's more realistic- and I'm not getting the listening fatigue that sets in at lower levels. So, having a little more dynamic range headroom may or may not be worthshile- it's your own choice, really. As a former musician, I'm like a lot of other current or former musicians (yes, I'm talking about you, Hank!) who do like to get their Ya Ya's out now and then. (Hence, the X1 Klones). But your mileage and preferences may vary- and there's no reason not to cater to them!

    For the Arvo Part system, I want a bit of dynamic range, and it's also an experiment in doing it passive (I have my own custom active crossovers, and one that would be readily adapted to this,) but I don't like bunches of op amps in my signal path- just a personal idiosyncrasy. I've been traveling so much this last three months that work has been at a standstill, but after then end of this month that situation will improve!

    Best regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
    _______________________________
    We'll screw up the other planets later....
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • Dennis H
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Aug 2002
      • 3791

      #3
      Jon, how do you rate the HiVi drivers compared to the Seas, assuming you operate both of them in their pistonic region? Ignoring cost for a moment, there appear to be some advantages to the HiVis. The Seas extend higher before they break up but that breakup is really nasty looking. So, say below 1KHz, which do you think would sound better? Are there non-linearities that don't show up on the response curves that might make you favor the Seas (again assuming cost doesn't matter?)

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15272

        #4
        Hi Dennis,

        In the range I use them (up to 1.25 kHz), I think you'd be hard put to make a case for one or the other, - if price were not a factor. The SEAS has a teensy bit lower 2nd harmonic distortion in the bottom end, but I think you'd be hard pressed to hear the difference. I've heard some people grouse that other HiVi driver models have had quality control issues- that's certainly possible, but I haven't seen it with the M8a- we've bought quite a few to date, ThomasW just recieved another "group buy" shipment which is being dispersed this week. I've built 3 pair myself with the M8a, and Thomas and friends quite a few more- several times more.

        I like the SEAS drivers quite a bit, and if it didn't cost me almost twice as much, I'd probably use it (I don't have any way to get a price break on SEAS). But for what I'm doing now, the M8a has worked well and enabled us to build a pretty remarkable sounding "budget bookshelf" (well, sure, that's a relative term, but we're talking a moderate size box and just a two way system - it's "budget compared with a Thor SEAS two way, for example).

        I'd be the last person to discourage someone from trying the SEA drivers- and for a three way on a budget, the L21 might work pretty well, but it starts dying above 850 Hz, so it wouldn't work as a replacement for the M8a.

        Just as a reminder, the M8a impedance sweep.....





        And the three position near field sweep (very near field, as above for the ScanSpeak)





        Best regards,

        Jon




        Earth First!
        _______________________________
        We'll screw up the other planets later....
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • sfdoddsy
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2000
          • 496

          #5
          Jon,

          Thanks for opening up the debate. I do like to let loose every now and again, and I also happen to be a bit of an organ music fan. For that I assume I will have to keep my EBS Shiva fired up.

          The bigger speaker I had in mind was something like this:



          But using the SEAS 8 and Focal 10 drivers.

          Getting back to the Arvo, I noticed that in the bass you are apparently going for front firing drivers rather than the push-pull of the Orion, any thoughts there?

          And just to get my money's worth from this post, for bass/mid bass duties, would you recommend a high efficiency/medium Xmax driver or a lower efficiency/high Xmax driver?

          Steve




          Steve's DIY Dipoles
          Steve's OB Journey

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15272

            #6
            The drivers I'm trying first (actually the 10" Titanic MkII, not the Shiva's discussed in the very first "April Fool" post) have a fairly elaborate pole piece effort to reduce 2nd order distortion, and have a nice flat spider and vented rear. Though they probably would benefit a little from a push pull configuration, for esthetic reasons in the physical design (there's those tradeoffs) I decided I wanted to try the more conventional mounting- it simplifies the construction and esthetics, IMO.

            One could say that they have a bit of a 70's or 80's kind of look (guess that dates me a bit, but then I started building pro audio and musical instrument gear in the 60's), but I think I'll be happy with how they turn out. That's a very indvidual choice, of course. We'll see how it turns when they're measured. And if I don't like the LF performance of the 10" MkII's, then the Adire DPL12's are the fall back position, if they ever get around to shipping on the pre-order (it was postponed a month).





            Believe it or not, these are an attempt to make something relatively "petite" that still is fairly killer with imaging and dynamics. The plan is to use either active EQ below 75 or a separate sub - sealed in my current home, dipole or IB in the future.

            Best regards,

            Jon




            Earth First!
            _______________________________
            We'll screw up the other planets later....
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • sfdoddsy
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2000
              • 496

              #7
              Jon,

              Do you happen to have the dimensions for the enclosure, and did you use any particular simulation for the baffle width and fold? I've using the spreadsheets on SLs site, and xbaffle.

              Also, I note you have the mids and tweet staggered on the baffle. Wouldn't this cause early roll-off for the mids because of the closeness to the baffle edge?

              Thanks again

              Steve




              Steve's DIY Dipoles
              Steve's OB Journey

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15272

                #8
                I'll be doing up a CAD drawing when the design is "finalized" - what you see is the result of a "back of the napkin" sketch which was then checked out using Paul Verdone's BDS tool in Excel.

                Yes, there should be more roll off in the lower mids towards the outside edge where the midwoofers are- since this is toward the wall and outside the listening area, I don't expect it to be a problem- but I could be fooled. They're offset so that the diffraction effects are more uniformly distributed by frequncy- I think this is important for a dipole as for a "box" design.

                Keep in mind, these are "test mules", not necessarily meant to be the finished/final ones. The reason they have the oak already is because I'm testing how that's going to work out in the design also. It's pretty rare that the first set of anything I build is the "final" version- the M8 bookshelf has gone through four iterations. I'm more like Bull Winkle the moose than a rocket scientist when it comes to this stuff- though I try to think things through pretty carefully, there's often a certain amount of "This time for sure! Oooops!" Just a hazard of engineering- sometimes you make progress more quickly by building and testing than just by planning something to death.

                Regards,

                Jon




                Earth First!
                _______________________________
                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Hank
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 1345

                  #9
                  $2 woofs and $9 tweets! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!! Poobahs, take a lesson from Steve. Forget the $900/per side in drivers, boys, get real!

                  I feel better. Just getting pumped to fly outta here next Thursday to Cancun airport, rent a jeep and drive down the coast to my favorite getaway, the village of Akumal for some serious de-stressing from the corporate responsibilites. No friggin' e-mails! No phone calls! No people appearing in front of my desk with problems they think only I can solve! Tequila, beer, fresh fish and SCUBA diving! YES!! I may not come back. :idea: Hmmm....I wonder if they need high-value speakers down there.....
                  Picture this: me hawking speakers on the beach alongside the girl selling towels and local beachwear. Do you see the synergy? (work with me on this, folks) 8)

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15272

                    #10
                    Why don't you get the girl hawking the beachwear to switch to hawking your speakers for you? Build you AV empire south of the border, huh? My Spanish isn't nearly good enough for that....




                    $2 woofs and $9 tweets!

                    Geeez, Hank, and you're giving me grief over my $18.50 MCM woofers as being a little too low rent!?!


                    Seriously, your trip sounds appealing- my trip last September had too much family invoked stress to really be a get away from it all kind of thing. And not even my own family.

                    Hey, but it's no problem, my comany announed we'll all take a stress free break on Thanksgiving week, since we have a mandatory one week shutdown lined up. Another mandatory shutdown at Xmas. I'll just probably have to put in a few weekends to stay caught up with things so I can enjoy my time off....

                    Hmmm, it strikes me there's something wrong with this scenario, but I don't have the time today to stop and think and figure out what it is- did an FAE training this AM, and have to get a customer demoboard debugged and built this afternoon/weekend. Maybe I can think about it next week, before I go to Chicago for the Power Conversion Intelligent Motion Conference/Show.

                    Have fun, Hank!

                    Best regards,

                    Jon




                    Earth First!
                    _______________________________
                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • sfdoddsy
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2000
                      • 496

                      #11
                      Well, I might as well go the whole hog. I like to rock out sometimes as well and my room is 25x23x16 so there is space to fill.

                      I've pretty much decided on a steroided version of the Orion, with separate subs. So it would be a taller (55 inch) enclosure with the Seas W22, Millenium tweeter, W22 and then two Focal 10L6411 for the mid bass.



                      The baffle will be be a high gloss canary yellow, and the side wings aluminium. No front grille, I want see all that metal.

                      The separate subs will come next and today's plan is a pair of the new Stryke AV15s per side in a push pull configuration in an H-Frame.

                      I also have two pairs of SEAS L21 drivers which will go into the surrounds.

                      Should be fun




                      Steve's DIY Dipoles
                      Steve's OB Journey

                      Comment

                      • Hank
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jul 2002
                        • 1345

                        #12
                        Originally posted by sfdoddsy
                        The baffle will be be a high gloss canary yellow, and the side wings aluminium.
                        Poobahs, THIS may be the FAD (Far Out Design) winner. Please post pictures of the metallic monoliths when they're done.

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15272

                          #13
                          I've pretty much decided on a steroided version of the Orion, with separate subs. So it would be a taller (55 inch) enclosure with the Seas W22, Millenium tweeter, W22 and then two Focal 10L6411 for the mid bass.

                          Do you mean the Focal 10W6411? I'm not familiar with a 10L6411.



                          What were your selection criteria for the Focal's over, say, Linkwtiz's Peerless drivers, or a (get out your wallet!) some of the new SEAS 10"? Regardless, it sounds like it will be a very interesting system. With the size room you have, "going for the gusto" should pay off.

                          My guess is you'll be doing the sub the same time as the main system, as the Focal's have an 8 mm Xmax.

                          I'm curious to see how low the Arvo Part concept will go with the Titanic MkII 10's (really 11" drivers); without EQ they should be pretty flat to 75 Hz, but with EQ they have enough Xmax (~18 mm) to be pushed lower with reasonable output, given the Sd and Xmax.

                          I'm probably going to do a push pull sub with the pair of BP1203's I have on hand,





                          though I suppose Thomas would make a case that I ought to go ahead and build up another Aerial Stryke with the HE-15 sitting in the corner of my bedroom!





                          Keep us posted on how your project is going as you construct and test it! Are you getting the constructor's kit from LInkwitz, with the plans and crossover boards?



                          Best regards,

                          Jon




                          Earth First!
                          _______________________________
                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • sfdoddsy
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2000
                            • 496

                            #14
                            The 10L6411 is an aluminium woofer done as a special order for the top of line Hales speaker. QSC Audio are getting rid of them and I picked up four for $42 each. Andre at E-Speakers said they were excellent in all areas so I figured I'd give them a shot.

                            There are 20 up now on eBay:



                            I thought about the SEAS 10 inchers, but $240 or so is a little pricey

                            Since I'm modifying the Orion in height and drivers and appearance I thought I'd save Seigfried the job of answering all my questions. Hey, that's what we're all here for.

                            As far as the crossover goes, I'll use my Driverack PA for the main panel. Still not sure about the subs, but in the meantime I'll use the crossover from my prepro and just run the EBS Shiva while I work things out. So the Focals will only go down to 80Hz.

                            I have a spare Behringer Active Xover and an FBD which I can press into service.

                            Hank,

                            I tried and failed to make the link below active, but it should take you to some shots of where these speakers are going. I like modern stuff and they'll fit pretty well, I hope.

                            Steve's Photos]http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/sfdoddsy/lst?.dir=/Stereo+House&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com]Steve's Photos

                            Steve




                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                            Steve's OB Journey

                            Comment

                            • Hank
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 1345

                              #15
                              Steve, you're correct, the link is a dead duck. Also, below your name is a little white box with a red "X" in it. Is that supposed to be a photo?

                              Comment

                              • sfdoddsy
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2000
                                • 496

                                #16
                                Fixed the link, don't know about the box.



                                Steve




                                Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                Steve's OB Journey

                                Comment

                                • Hank
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jul 2002
                                  • 1345

                                  #17
                                  Steve, cool pad! And all those speakers - how many of them did you build? Great looking! I'm confused - the pics are labeled Adelaide, as in Australia? But you're in Foster City, CA?
                                  Anyway, thanks for sharing.

                                  Comment

                                  • sfdoddsy
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Sep 2000
                                    • 496

                                    #18
                                    Ahh.

                                    I was living in the States, moved back to Australia to the house I was building in Adelaide Street.

                                    I've moved again, but the room is bigger.

                                    The speakers aren't DIY, they are some of the ones I have owned. The current ones are the WATTs.

                                    Steve




                                    Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                    Steve's OB Journey

                                    Comment

                                    • sfdoddsy
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Sep 2000
                                      • 496

                                      #19
                                      Jon (or Thomas),

                                      Just looking at your Arvo Part and the Orion and pondering the bass question I was wondering what would happen if you used a similar driver mounting system to the woofers on the Legacy Whisper.

                                      In other words two tens mounted on top of each other front to back for a total of four per side. This would take up no more space vertically and not much more depth-wise than a single woofer and should provide twice the displacement.

                                      Taking this thought further, what would happen if you continued this all the way up to the tweeter?

                                      Would this obviate the need for the MTM configuration for more power?

                                      Cheers

                                      Steve




                                      Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                      Steve's OB Journey

                                      Comment

                                      • Dennis H
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2002
                                        • 3791

                                        #20
                                        Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think sandwiching two drivers increases displacement over a single driver. Rather, it's about cancelling even order harmonic distortion. Linkwitz' push-pull mounting does both - cancel the distortion and double the displacement. M&K subs also work that way. You see the cone of the front-firing driver and the basket of the bottom-firing driver.

                                        On a more general philosophical note, I wonder if reversing half the drivers is worth it? Even order distortion sounds "musical" and odd order distortion sounds "digital", at least at higher frequencies. Removing the "good" distortion and leaving the "bad" distortion doesn't seem all that great in principle. Food for thought.

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15272

                                          #21
                                          The Legacy Whisper has the drivers mounted and connected in phase. It works a bit like an isobaric dipole, if there was such a thing. Increases the effective LF Q, increases the side area null, does NOT increase the output overall- which is driver Xmax limited.

                                          The Legacy, as well as our Legacy clone, also has a rear mounted PR tuned to dampen part of the LF back wave; this gives the speaker a little more of a cardiod than a figure 8 radiation pattern.

                                          This front to back mounting only works acoustically when the distance is small compared with the wavelength; it wouldn't produce the same effects at higher frequencies.

                                          I tend to agree with Dennis that just cancelling the even order harmonics may not be a panacea. Overall, using as linear a driver as possible, and optimizing the enclosure construction and esthetics was a more important choice to me, which is why I didn't got with an H Frame with one driver mounted opposite and driven out of phase (back radiating to front). Maybe I'll regret that or change it later- time will tell.

                                          With the dipole LF roll off, for a given SPL a good rule of thumb is that you need 4X the amount of swept volume (SD X Xmax) as for a closed box. Obviously, the more linear the driver, the better. Designs which use relatively small numbers of drivers must expect to operate closer to the limits, and any possibilty of distortion reduction in that case may be desirable.

                                          The Orion is designed for high quality at moderate SPL, but with running a single 8 down to 120 Hz, and using two 10's with about 9 mm Xmax, it's going to be a little limited filling a large room- this is to be expected, and is a reasonable trade off for the cost/complexity/price issues involved.

                                          I don't begin to represent the "Arvo Part" as a "reference design" or any kind of absolute; it's an exploratory tool for me, the second full range dipole system I've designed (if you count reverse engineering the Legacy Whisper as the first). It's inteneded to be a "small footprint" speaker, similar in room space to the M8 stand mounted bookshelf (very similar in overall footprint- the height of my M8's on stands and the Arvo's are essentially identical).

                                          With dual 8" midwoofers, the response- distortion and SPL in the 250 Hz to 1.25 kHz region - shouldn't be limited compared with the closed box system, and with dual 11" woofers with an Xmax of 16 mm for the 75 Hz to 250 Hz range, I expect the midbass to hold up OK, too. It's a lot of extra money to basically gain a measure of room independence in the mid to upper bass and lower midrange, but having listened to the Whisper Klones at length, I'm confident it's a worthwhile experiment.

                                          Keep in mind ThomasW and I are not like the typical guy that wants to build a neat pair of speakers and then be done with it for a few years; it seems we're always working on one or two (at least) new projects, so the idea of having an ongoing development process as opposed to just a single pair of finished speakers is the norm for us.

                                          Best regards,

                                          Jon




                                          Earth First!
                                          _______________________________
                                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • sfdoddsy
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Sep 2000
                                            • 496

                                            #22
                                            Well, I've made my first DIY speakers, even if they are only test units at the moment. I made a kind of combo between the the Orion and the Arvo Part, although I'm still waiting for the bass baffle and the proper drivers. I couldn't resist chucking some spare drivers and creating a kind of Phoenix, using two SEAS L21 and a Focal TC90KB.

                                            This required a fair bit of tinkering with the Driverack PA, especially with the top end of the SEAS, but I have everything flattish down to below 100Hz, where they cross to my Shiva EBS.

                                            Then I set them up on either side of my current mains (Wilson WATT) and had a listen. The result is remarkably good, especially given the drivers aren't rebated yet, and they are not the ones recommended by anyone, and they are being brute force EQed.

                                            The speaker does sound open and boxless. It is also flatter in room than the WATTs, so I guess the dipole theory does work. The imaging is not quite as specific as the WATTs, but it does spread from the speakers more. They'd actually make remarkably good side or rear speakers for the Wilsons.

                                            In fact they are so good sounding I can't decide which I prefer at the moment. This is rather surprising from a few bits of MDF and some cheaper drivers (although the Wilson's are even cheaper). Assuming the Excel drivers make a noticeable difference, I may have myself some new mains.

                                            BTW, none of this would have been possible without the dbx Driverack and TrueRTA. It took a lot of fiddling and I am still working on them. The Driverack makes changes blissfully easy to achieve, although I would like a computer interface to make it even faster.

                                            Cheers

                                            Steve




                                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                            Steve's OB Journey

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15272

                                              #23
                                              Glad to hear you've had some interesting results from your "experiment"!

                                              There is a pretty characteristic way that dipoles seem to avoid the room sound in the lower mids through bass that is quite attractive once you get a bit of a taste for it- the Whisper project certainly brought that out.

                                              I've been tempted to pull my X1 active crossovers to play around with the AP also, just because they happen to have roughly the right lower crossover point (175 Hz) and EQ below 75Hz and in the lower range of the upper crossover that they might work pretty well- just need a tweeter crossover. But that may be something to try out in comparison with the passive crossover- which will be paired with a Sumo Delilah for the LF crossover.

                                              Keep us informed of your progress and impressions!


                                              Best regards,

                                              Jon




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                                              Comment

                                              • sfdoddsy
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Sep 2000
                                                • 496

                                                #24
                                                Well, I've made two test baffles, photos are here if anyone is interested. Sorry, can't make images work in the thread.

                                                diydipoles

                                                The main difference is that one has the woofers mounted at the front, the other has them mounted in an H-frame within the cabinet.

                                                Can't say I notice a huge difference at the moment, but listening continues.

                                                I do have a question about baffle width though. When using a folded baffle, how do you calaculate the width? One of my baffles is 13 inches wide with two 12 inch rear wings, which I would assume be the equivalent of a 36 inch flat baffle.

                                                The other (the H-frame is 13 inches wide with six inch wings front and back. Is this also 36 inches, or do you judge it as though the wings were folded out horizontally for a baffle width of 24 inches?

                                                Thanks in advance.


                                                Steve




                                                Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                Steve's OB Journey

                                                Comment

                                                • Dennis H
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Aug 2002
                                                  • 3791

                                                  #25
                                                  I think it's less than a precise science...... :LOL:

                                                  In general, I think the idea is to guestimate how much the baffle delays the rear wave from reaching your ear. So, the one with the drivers at the front would have a larger effective baffle size when you're sitting in front of the speaker. However, it would also aim the null more toward the rear.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15272

                                                    #26
                                                    Hi Steve,

                                                    Glad to see you're moving ahead- seems like all I'm doing is moving my butt around in an airplane for my employer!

                                                    Your two different baffle contructions will have different polar responses- I have some ideas about how they would vary, but the right way to find out is to measure- eaiser said than done.

                                                    Some of the other guys working in this area have found more problems when using "wings" to the front or rear, if you're going up in range (into the midrange). Wings to either the front or rear have some effect on the null zone and the overall shape of the pattern. But it's not totally consistent with frequency. I'm using rear wings on the bottom end (below 200Hz) for the first test baffle, but essentially no wings on the upper range (200 Hz plus).

                                                    An H baffle increases the overall distance for front and rear equallly, but I think it will affect the size and location of the null zone more than it affects the basic corner frequency (say, comparing a set of rear wings only (lets say 6-8" for aruguments sake), versus an H with a similar 6-8" both front and rear. The latter will change the behavior as far as the wrap around positive reinforcement peak, and will also add lower midrange resonances (according to SL). Short of some pretty serious finite element analysis, I think the quickest way to figure out what's what is to measure polar response in MLS at 5-10 degree increments, and then plot a series of polar plots at discrete frequencies (third or sixth octave). This would probably give a reasonably clear overview of the merits of any particular cabinet/panel execution- more than just an axial pressure response on axis would.

                                                    Regards,

                                                    Jon




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                                                    Comment

                                                    • sfdoddsy
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Sep 2000
                                                      • 496

                                                      #27
                                                      The wings only come into play below 150Hz, but I'll do some measurements tonight. If the differences aren't huge will probably just pick which one is aesthetically more pleasant. I've made the front of the baffle in two parts so it is easy enough to move the bass panel around.

                                                      What fun.

                                                      BTW, what would you use for polar response testing and MLS. I have TrueAudio at the moment.






                                                      Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                      Steve's OB Journey

                                                      Comment

                                                      • sfdoddsy
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2000
                                                        • 496

                                                        #28
                                                        Well, after doing some measuring there do appear to be differences in bass depth (pre EQ) between the two baffle shapes.

                                                        The one with the 12 inch wings seems to go deeper than the one with the 6 inch wings front and rear. Does this stand up to theory?

                                                        Also noticeable is how efficient these things are. I don't know if it is paralleling the drivers, or actively triamping, but I have to lower the gain by about 7.5dB to do a level comparison with the WATTs, which are pretty efficient themselves.

                                                        Anyone care to hazard how much of an improvement swapping out the SEAS L21 drivers for the W22s and the Focal tweeter for the Millenium will make?

                                                        Cheers

                                                        Steve




                                                        Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                        Steve's OB Journey

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15272

                                                          #29
                                                          I think I'd expect that, but I'd want to investigate a little more before opening my mouth too wide! I'm speculating that there is a difference between the front and back level with 12" wings to the rear, and it would favor the level and dispersion towards the front. However, I'm wondering if there isn't a tradeoff between improvement of forward bass level, and the behavior of the side nulls? So, possibly with this configuration, there is more room influence towards the side? Which could be a different kind of drawback- but then, maybe a worthwhile tradeoff.

                                                          We'll certainly be interested to here more about your experiments.

                                                          Best regards,

                                                          Jon




                                                          Earth First!
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                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
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                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • sfdoddsy
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Sep 2000
                                                            • 496

                                                            #30
                                                            It seems the delay with the Stryke AV12s has made up mind for me as I needed to pick them up while I'm in the States in a couple of weeks.

                                                            Besides, four DPL12s are much cheaper at $300 rather than the $720 for four AV12s. Shame about the aluminium fronts though.

                                                            I can get bottoming with the Focal 10s without too much of an effort run full range, though it is much harder with them rolled off at 40Hz.

                                                            I'll try the DPL12s as a three way replacing the Focals, and as a four way adding to them.

                                                            Steve




                                                            Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                            Steve's OB Journey

                                                            Comment

                                                            • sfdoddsy
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Sep 2000
                                                              • 496

                                                              #31
                                                              I'm my own Santa. Waiting for me at my girlfriend's place in Grand Rapids were four Adire DPL12, four Seas W22 and two Seas Millenium tweeters. She thinks I'm a little mad.

                                                              Can't wait to get home and start playing.






                                                              Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                              Steve's OB Journey

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15272

                                                                #32
                                                                Grand Rapids vs Sidney Australia? That's a bit mad anyway, , so the speakers shouldn't put her out too much. Anyway, it sounds promising if she only thinks you're a little mad with that much DIY drivers!

                                                                Glad to hear one Santa or another has something fun for you under your tree this year! I think the DPL12's are quite a bargain- if I really thought I had to go for more Xmas, then the AV12's is the next logical choice- but I think the balance of efficiency, Xmax, and contruction of the DPL12 is just plain hard to beat.

                                                                Happy Holidays!

                                                                Jon




                                                                Earth First!
                                                                _______________________________
                                                                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
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                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • sfdoddsy
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2000
                                                                  • 496

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Now that I have the drivers in hand, I've been repondering finishes. It struck me that cladding the baffles in black rubber, while kinky, might look rather good.

                                                                  What would it do, if anything, acoustically? I would assume it would eliminate the need to rebate the drivers.

                                                                  Any thoughts?

                                                                  Steve




                                                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15272

                                                                    #34
                                                                    What do you mean by black rubber? Like, rubberized paint?

                                                                    The drivers which carry high frequencies, and ones mounted near them should be rebated- for low frequency range drivers (below 1 kHz) I don't think you'll see any measured difference. I've found that using some felt baffle diffraction treatment can be quite handy in controlling/reducing the little ripples in the on axis response which occur above 1 kHz.






                                                                    Scotch tape is optional.... :LOL:


                                                                    -Jon




                                                                    Earth First!
                                                                    _______________________________
                                                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                    M8ta
                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                    Isiris
                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                    SMJ
                                                                    Minerva Monitor
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                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                    In Development...
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                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • sfdoddsy
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Sep 2000
                                                                      • 496

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I picked up some sheets from my local rubber emporium. It is a smooth black surface with 6mm of foam underneath. It looks pretty good and initial tests show that once the drivers are screwed in, it compresses enough to give the required rebate.

                                                                      I'm just using it for the top panel so I'll try and post a shot.

                                                                      Steve




                                                                      Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                      Steve's OB Journey

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Hank
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Jul 2002
                                                                        • 1345

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Rubber cladding? From your rubber emporium?
                                                                        I wouldn't touch the next line with a 10-foot spatula.
                                                                        Yep, he's mad alright. Must come from down under.

                                                                        Jon, Scotch tape is not optional since I work for 3M
                                                                        I don't know which would be uglier cosmetics - your felt or Steve's rubber. Probably your felt. What thread is this anyway?

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15272

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Well, Hank, my normal mouting (post development) doesn't use tape for mounting- does 3M make hot glue?

                                                                          The felt is part of a front panel design with the HDF build up to make a minimum diffraction interface to the frill frame- here's what it looks like before putting the grille on....




                                                                          I"ve used some dense acoustical foams on speaker front panels also, in the 70's, but they're hard to get hold of, where as I can get this felt at my local hardware store...

                                                                          -Jon




                                                                          Earth First!
                                                                          _______________________________
                                                                          We'll screw up the other planets later....
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                                                                          M8ta
                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
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                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Hank
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Jul 2002
                                                                            • 1345

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Yes, we make hot-melt, and contact cement and glue application systems for cabinet shops, and you can rest easy on your next flight, knowing the airplane is held together with our high-tech adhesives (stronger and lighter than conventional fasteners).

                                                                            I was just kidding about your felt. I've seen that "after" photo. It'll be fine when you put a grill over it :LOL:

                                                                            BTW, are you or Thomas going to the C.E.S.? I'm flying to Vegas in the morning.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • sfdoddsy
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Sep 2000
                                                                              • 496

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Hank,

                                                                              You Americans are so conservative.



                                                                              Here are a couple of not very well taken shots of the new drivers with the rubber clad baffle. Excuse the slash in the second one, I made a bit of a scalpel error.



                                                                              They actually look better then the shots, a bit like kinky Sonus Fabers, although I haven't made a final decision yet.

                                                                              Steve




                                                                              Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                              Steve's OB Journey

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • sfdoddsy
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Sep 2000
                                                                                • 496

                                                                                #40
                                                                                I'm starting to think about my surrounds now, but I have aanother question. I'll do dipoles again like my mains, but I have a question about positioning.

                                                                                One place is for them to be mounted on the wall with one side butting up against the wall, and the other pointing out, like a sideways 'T'. This means that the wall will be acting like an extended folded baffle.

                                                                                Or does it?

                                                                                Will nthe extra long 'baffle' on that side affect the response, or will having the other side free be the determining factor.

                                                                                Thanks

                                                                                Steve




                                                                                Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                                Steve's OB Journey

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • sfdoddsy
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Sep 2000
                                                                                  • 496

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Well, for those who are still awake, I have finished the final test baffle. This has the twin Adire DPL12s per side. I've mounted them push pull in an H-Frame.

                                                                                  The final test sounds great. Especially in the bass. They go lower than my EBS Shiva and have enough headroom for me to run them full range.

                                                                                  At louder than my usual listening levels, only one track has bottomed them, 'Postmodern Blues' on Patricia Barber's 'Modern Cool'. Switching in a 20Hz 12dB low pass solved that. However, that same track bottomed my previous Entec subs at about the same volume level. It is a killer.

                                                                                  I did get a bit nervous in the Dorian Saint Saens Organ Concerto though.

                                                                                  Pictures are posted at my site.

                                                                                  I've also made test center surrounds which are cut down versions of the mains, and they are looking good too.

                                                                                  The only question now is whether to make the final version a three way or a four way. The Adires in push pull are ugly, and I kind of like the thought of having a nice thin main panel, and then separate bass panels, although it is overkill for music listening, plus I would need yet another power amp.

                                                                                  What do you reckon, one and all?

                                                                                  If I do this, any thoughts on whether WWTMM or WMTMW would be best?

                                                                                  BTW, my neighbours have already complained about the bass. So much for dipoles not having enough power.



                                                                                  Steve




                                                                                  Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                                  Steve's OB Journey

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15272

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Glad to hear things are coming a long and you're pleased with the results! As well as your neighbors! :B


                                                                                    I've done several successful WMTMW's, so I'd vote for that layout, but tweeter height is an issue- how high or tall are you willing to make these?

                                                                                    And where are the updated pics? :W


                                                                                    -Jon




                                                                                    Earth First!
                                                                                    _______________________________
                                                                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                                    M8ta
                                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                                    Isiris
                                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                    SMJ
                                                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                                                    Calliope
                                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                                    In Development...
                                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • sfdoddsy
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Sep 2000
                                                                                      • 496

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Just click the link and you can see how unattractive the DPL12s make the front baffle.

                                                                                      The tweeter height depends on whether I make the main panel free standing, or figure a way to mount it above the sub unit, kind of like the Wisdom speakers, but dynamic.

                                                                                      Does the WMTMW alignment cause any lobing issues?

                                                                                      Steve




                                                                                      Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                                      Steve's OB Journey

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Jack Gilvey
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Aug 2001
                                                                                        • 510

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Beautiful, Steve..I think my DPL's are destined for such a fate. It's surprizing how deep they do go.

                                                                                        While I think it looks cool as-is, maybe you could fashion a fabric grill for the bottom?

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • sfdoddsy
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Sep 2000
                                                                                          • 496

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Jack,

                                                                                          This is just a test baffle. The final one will have the sides made from aluminium sin ome more curvaceous shape. If I keep the present configuration I wouldn't mind trying something like the Sonus Faber/Krell string grill covers for the bottom.

                                                                                          However, they would look even better as a four way with one tower comprising the Focal 10Ls, The Seas W22s and the Millenium, and then two sub modules with the DPL12s. Like the first picture on the web site, without the wings, and with separate subs.

                                                                                          Or, now I think of it, a single tall tower using a Stryke AV15/Tumult... hmmmm!






                                                                                          Steve's DIY Dipoles
                                                                                          Steve's OB Journey

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