Cant get XO to meet target

[SoundOfNothing]

I've been trying to get my scan 18w/8531 to meet my target and cant get it; I keep geting a nasty peak at around 1350hz. Do I need a notch (I cant understand why this freq anomaly is occuring given that the impedance of the driver is fairly controlled in this region and so is the freq). Any help would be greatly appreciated. XO LR4 ~300/1600hz

[SoundOfNothing]

ZMA File
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[SoundOfNothing]

FRD File
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[ergo]

Try to add resistor in series with each inductor with the approximate DCR value of the inductors you would use. For example 2mH inductor usually would be at least 400mOhm.

It looks like the simulation shows resonance because all of the parts in you simulated crossover are "perfect" without losses.

[Davey]

Here's a super quick simulation in LspCAD. (Less components could be used.)

Dave.

[dlr]

Your data has no phase (column 3), neither the FR (FRD) nor the impedance (ZMA). It looks like you need to post-process both of them. Without phase data, they're useless.

Dave

[Davey]

Dave,

When you start crossing it over to a woofer and tweeter you will, but not for this simple exercise.

Dave.

[dlr]

Dave,

When you start crossing it over to a woofer and tweeter you will, but not for this simple exercise.

Dave.

Phase data for impedance is required for all situations dealing with complex impedance crossovers, though the lack of it may be less significant for such a bandpass on that driver. It's better that he start with the both files done correctly before moving into the full crossover simulations. If not, he's in for a lot more frustration. It didn't seem like it was being done as a simple exercise.

I haven't plotted that raw data, does it include the baffle step? 300Hz should already have somewhere around 2db loss to begin with.

Dave

[SoundOfNothing]

Thank you all for the responses.

Regarding phase; this was a exercise in building a mock XO for the thee way Im designing, to familarize myself with Speaker Workshop.

About resistances for coils, I guess I better check out what madisound coils of those size have for DCR and pop it in.

I'll check out the similar XO, too. Thanks for that.

Now onto baffle step when do I add that in? I was going to take real measurements after the cabinets were built, take a look at the response in Speaker Workshop and tweak the baffle step from there. Sound correct?

This is a fun project, Im sure Ill have a number of questions but I promise to pay it foward and share the knowledge I learn :T

[dlr]

Thank you all for the responses.

Regarding phase; this was a exercise in building a mock XO for the thee way Im designing, to familarize myself with Speaker Workshop.

About resistances for coils, I guess I better check out what madisound coils of those size have for DCR and pop it in.

I'll check out the similar XO, too. Thanks for that.

Now onto baffle step when do I add that in? I was going to take real measurements after the cabinets were built, take a look at the response in Speaker Workshop and tweak the baffle step from there. Sound correct?

This is a fun project, Im sure Ill have a number of questions but I promise to pay it foward and share the knowledge I learn :T

So it was an exercise. OK. Personally I'd suggest spending the time making the cabinets and the measurements because the response that you're going to have is likely to be a bit more ragged and difficult, so whatever you do now is going to have to change a lot.

The measurements you get will only partially show the baffle step because you're not likely to get measurement data below 300Hz at best in-room due to reflections. Let me offer my recent pages on a design that covers a lot of detail of some of the issues and how I handled them.

2-Way design example

[Dave Bullet]

Once you've followed the advice above, you can get SW to optimise against a target. It's optimisation is limited. It can only do this for amplitude (not phase) response and only for one driver and its network at a time (which means it cannot optimise series networks).

It's possible by building a test box and getting real measurements, your baffle is not optimised for the drivers and intended XO topology. You might want to play with the FRD tools first to try and simulate as much of this as possible, building a test box and baffle for real measurements when you think you are close enough.

[JonMarsh]

One last hint- this is not a good network configuration for a bandpass LR4 or similar electrical order- do a little research into network topologies for crossovers. :W

Gotta run to give an FAE training.

[Dennis H]

One last hint- this is not a good network configuration for a bandpass LR4 or similar electrical order- do a little research into network topologies for crossovers. :W

Gotta run to give an FAE training.

Just to expand on what Jon said, here's a standard 4th order bandpass config. It's a simplified version of what Davey did above. It doesn't include the resistors representing the R of the coils and caps. For the lowpass part, you add components in the order L1 C2 L3 C4. For the highpass it's C1 L2 C3 L4.

Say you decide you need a 3rd order electrical highpass and a 2nd order electrical lowpass to meet your acoustical target. The highpass would be C1 L2 C3 and the lowpass would be L1 C2, leaving the other components out.

[JonMarsh]

Just to expand on what Jon said, here's a standard 4th order bandpass config. It's a simplified version of what Davey did above. It doesn't include the resistors representing the R of the coils and caps. For the lowpass part, you add components in the order L1 C2 L3 C4. For the highpass it's C1 L2 C3 L4.

Say you decide you need a 3rd order electrical highpass and a 2nd order electrical lowpass to meet your acoustical target. The highpass would be C1 L2 C3 and the lowpass would be L1 C2, leaving the other components out.

:T :B

Thanks Dennis!

[SoundOfNothing]

Once you've followed the advice above, you can get SW to optimise against a target. It's optimisation is limited. It can only do this for amplitude (not phase) response and only for one driver and its network at a time (which means it cannot optimise series networks).

It's possible by building a test box and getting real measurements, your baffle is not optimised for the drivers and intended XO topology. You might want to play with the FRD tools first to try and simulate as much of this as possible, building a test box and baffle for real measurements when you think you are close enough.

Totally hear ya on that, I have done sims and designed the cabinet, after I build them, I'll install and measure the drivers. SW does have its limits as I'm finding out but hopefully it will do the job.

The goal of this phase was really to familarize myself with the software, as last thing I want to happen is spend $$ and time building cabinets and not know how to do anything from there :B

[SoundOfNothing]

Just to expand on what Jon said, here's a standard 4th order bandpass config. It's a simplified version of what Davey did above. It doesn't include the resistors representing the R of the coils and caps. For the lowpass part, you add components in the order L1 C2 L3 C4. For the highpass it's C1 L2 C3 L4.

Say you decide you need a 3rd order electrical highpass and a 2nd order electrical lowpass to meet your acoustical target. The highpass would be C1 L2 C3 and the lowpass would be L1 C2, leaving the other components out.

Thank you for that :T. I read through the entire Loudspeaker Cookbook and no where do I recall reading that, I always felt that book left something to be desired.

Let me offer my recent pages on a design that covers a lot of detail of some of the issues and how I handled them.
2-Way design example

Cool thanks Dave, will give it a read.

[cjd]

I have never found the optimizer to be worth using. It sorta works but it messes other things up. I might try it to see if I've gone way overboard, but in those cases I usually start over.

It will get more frustrating before it startsto come together... probably.