DIY Design- Kloner's versus Originality - Where's the Beef? (pls discuss)

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15209

    DIY Design- Kloner's versus Originality - Where's the Beef? (pls discuss)

    DIY audio folks are an independent and variegated lot- given to passion, strong opinions. and heartfelt beliefs, all of which drive the unusual efforts to which they'll go in order to develop and build their latest love and creation.

    There's been a surprising amount of discussion, some pretty heated, about the idea of copying or "Kloning" commercial designs, versus doing an "original" DIY design. Some folks have some pretty strong opinions, and aren't afraid to share them, about what the "right" thing to do for DIY is, and the "wrong" things to do.

    Frankly, when the discussion veers in this direction, I think it's getting a little too close to DIY "religion" for my comfort (separate the heretics from the true believers? ).

    But let's explore and discuss some of these concepts and ideas together- let's talk about copying commercial designs, or "Kloning" a popular speaker (not the same thing, at "Klone Audio"! ). And let's consider how original "original" designs are- and perhaps discuss the difference between "commerical" DIY designs, and "amateur" DIY designs (I could play devil's advocate and suggest that "commerical" DIY is a wolf in sheeps clothing, and "amateur" DIY is "True Religion", but we've already agreed to abandon that metaphor.... haven't we?

    (and perhaps we shouldn't mention those who get highly perturbed by ThomasW's and my site, "Klone-Audio" - I guess there's a certain number of people out there who don't understand tongue in cheek very well - life's too short not to have some fun with it- that or our sense of humor is a little too dry at times. Like my British girlfriend).

    I have a very hectic schedule of travel coming up for the company over the next few months, so I'm not even going to attempt some kind of "dissertation" about this. I'd like to throw out some thoughts and tentative definitions, but just to get the ball rolling, and see if any of the spaghetti sticks to the wall.... or will it just be on my face? :LOL:


    Copying Commerical Designs

    There are a few well known projects out there on the web, where the clear avocation is to reproduce as closely as possible, or as closely as feasible within certain budget limitations, the look, sound, and general performance of a well known commercial design. Two of the best known examples that come to mind are Thorsten Loesch's Watt Puppy/ David-Jerico project, and the Proac 2.5 clones. Thorsten's project is interesting reading and very well documented.














    In this type of project, a strong effort is made to understand and unravel the thinking behind the original design, so that a significant portion of the performance can be achieved by the home contructor, less the markup and expense which the original incurs at retail.

    The reality is that this is fairly hard to do, both becuase of the paucity of relaible information for most commercial designs, plus the factor that the manufacturer invests in a lot of tooling and processes which may contribute significantly to the quality and performance of the design, and which is amortized over the construction of a large number of speakers. For the home constructer, this isn't practical, and so either a great deal more labor may be required, or the actual construction quality may suffer in comparison with the commercial product.

    If you don't think this is the case, (remember, we're talking high end for the moment, not reproducing $1K a pair commercial bookshelfs), just take a look at the construction of a Wilson Watt/Puppy, or an Avalon Eidelon, or a Sonus Faber Anything! (new model Lex hasn't heard of yet - just a general comment on their construction techniques). Many DIY constructors will do some amazing things, but this certainly becomes a labor of love.

    In the effort to copy designs, I've even read about hobbyists securing impedance plots of the commerical speakers, and compariing them with the plots of the copies, as an aid in reverse engineering.


    "Kloning Designs"

    Unlike the biological/genetic equivalent, Thomas and I are not into exact copying, or "cloning". We do think it's an interesting exercise to try to get under the skin and understand the thinking of the designer of an interesting speaker- and also to try to understand why that speaker has the positive impact on music in some specific manners, in spite of sometimes otherwise having some significant flaws.

    For an example of a speaker system which was highly regarded but in my opinion DEFINITELY fell within the "flawed" category, consider the Eggleston Works Andra- speaker of the year at Sterophile, but incapable of flat axial response anywhere in front of it for 1 to 2 meters, and only possesed of smooth response in the far field reverberent response... you can get a lot of details about that system in the archives at Stereophile, if you don't have the original review lying around.

    Well known speakers which did spark our interest are the Legacy Whispers (a large dipole system), and the Wilson Audio X1. You can read about the genesis of ThomasW's Whisper "Klone's" here




    and a write up about the X1 project here:



    Though going into this project I was well aware of some fundamental issues with the X1 design layout, including the diffraction issues with the top module, nonetheless, having heard the real Wilson X1's, and having a fair amount of suitable parts on hand that could be suitable for a revised version, I just couldn't resist trying my hand at it.

    Basically, the Devil made me do it.

    I could go down a long list of areas where I had specific knowledge of the Wilson design, and where I made alternative choices. Many are documented in the article. Perhaps those choices were better in some cases, perhaps not, but in all regards they were my choices, whether we're talking the order and cofiguration of the midrange to tweeter crossover, the active electronics crossover with LF room balance control (which Wilson obviously doesn't have with an all passive crossover), and so forth. Lacking in orginality? Well, that's in the eye the beholder, and since the only person I was trying to please was myself, it's really a non issue.

    Then, there's a lot of true creativity out there in DIY land, many unusual cabinet designs, unusual crossover configurations, etc.

    And there's also a lot of pretty standard designs out there. I couldn't begin to count how many 6-1/2" / 7" two ways there are, MT or MTM (individually designed, or "DIY" designs marketed by small companies or individuals). But I laud and salute every one who builds there own speakers and enjoys the fruits of there labor...

    But how original are these designs? Why are some of the folks doing such designs so vocal about deriding a modified Legacy Whisper design- an undertaking requiring a huge amount of effort and committment on several levels? Are they more original than an adaptation of the X1 or Watt/Puppy configuration? If so, how? I'm challenging a discussion to be started- how do YOU see this, and why? And just how important is "originality" to DIY speaker construction?

    If you own a copy of the AES Speaker anthology books, especially the first two, you'll see that a lot of what is being done in DIY speakers is based on the work of others that has been around not for years, but for decades. Think about when the first two way speaker was built... the first acoustic suspension designs.... the first electrostatics introduced by Quad (1957!)... etc. We literally all stand on the shoulders of giants, but I also don't think it in any way demeans the effort and work that those less gifted, but still hardworking and passionate put into building their own systems.


    Let's look at some popular concepts in modern speakers.


    Dipole line source speakers? Owned my first pair in 1976, courtesey of Jim Winey and his company's products.

    D'Apollito array (MTM, WMTMW)? How about 1977, when we assembled a Levinson HQD array, which with the inverted Quad 57 ESL stack with a Decca Ribbon tweeter formed a three way panel array WMTMW.

    Linear phase pulse perfect speakers? We built our first speaker capable of reproducing a square wave impulse on axis in 1977. MB tweeter, Audax dome mid, Audax 8. An improved version used an Audax 6-1/2 instead of the 8, with a custom Eminence woofer.

    Transmission line loaded speakers? Built a four way speaker capable of strong 25 Hz in room response with a 10" woofer in 1973. It wasn't a rig for SET amps, though- it liked Phase Linear 400's and 700's. A later design with Philips woofers and Celstion mids could be content with a "mere" 50-100 watts per channel.

    Lots of other folks doing similar things in those days, of course.

    So, something I'd like to throw open for discussion, is just what DOES or DOESN"T constitute an "original" DIY design (though distinguishing between DIY and commerical is sort of arbitrary, isn't it?)

    And is a DIY design really DIY when it's developed for sale by someone to customers, and not provided gratis? It's sounding to me like it's a commercial desgin at that point, if the only way to get the design is to buy the parts kit from the designer. I have no arguement with that as a business mode- Kit's are a long tradition in Audio- but we didn't call Dynaco "DIY". But then, they sold you the box and all the other parts along with the plans.

    What do you think?


    Best regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
    _______________________________
    We'll screw up the other planets later....
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
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    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    I too find it interesting that people chose to attack the 'klone' projects and the accusitions of our lack of originality.

    Jon and I became bored with creating the 100th generation of an MTM, TM, WMTMW, or whatever. So we each chose a specific high end loudspeaker, and supported each other in the 'kloning' of the chosen designs. Why????

    Well the result certainly wasn't going to be a product offered on the retail market. It was instead a very interesting learning tool. Getting inside the head of the designer to seeing how he/she chose to solve the problems inherent in the creation of that speaker. Also the designs chosen for 'kloning' were so complex, that almost no average DIY speaker builder could have duplicated them, even with the information posted on the website.

    The step by step documenting of the building of say the Whisper is and was intended as a tutorial in the process of building a speaker, any speaker. In the years since the Whisper Klone was built, has anyone seen the market flooded with copies of that design? I don't think so. And since I haven't heard from Bill Duddleston I'm pretty sure he's secure in the knowledge that his design is 'safe' and his sales haven't decreased. This also applies to the X-1 SLAMM klone. David Wilson isn't threatened by Jon's project or anyone else versions of his designs. The demographics of the market are such that 'klones' of any shape or manner present no real threat to the retail products they emmulate. Why???

    Because the so called 'average' buyer of a loudspeaker produced for retail sale, is looking for things that can't be found in a DIY project even if it was an exact copy. They want convenience (cash and carry/plug and play), they want customer support, they want a warranty, they want the security of knowing their purchase has good resale value, and they want the prestige of having paid for a specific brand of speaker. None of these are available in a DIY copy of anyone's speaker.

    So why are some manfactures so threatened by someone that can replicate their designs? Well primarily because their designs aren't original or unique. If they were, they could, and should be patented.

    Finally of those that think 'kloning' is 'cheating' because 'all the works been done', make me fall out laughing. Just try and obtain the particulars of a XO, or the exact components use in the design or the exact construction techniques use by the designer. It's not that easy. This information isn't public knowledge. In reality the 'kloner' has to work much harder than the person stating with a blank slate.

    Having been in the business I would have been happy if a DIY builder were to have replicated our designs. That kind of publicity generates interest. Interest generates sales. And those that would chose to create the DIY copies were never potential buyers for the assembled products.

    I do empathize with those attempting to make a living in audio in this day and age. It's never been easy (Jon and I know that all too well). and is even more difficult in this day and age. But realize that DIY 'kloners' are the least of your worries.

    IMO all this fuss is much ado about nothing....... :B

    My $.02

    Cheers
    Thomas




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • PMazz
      Senior Member
      • May 2001
      • 861

      #3
      I can't say as I know exactly what all the "talk" is about. I really don't see you guys doing anything different than everyone else does, other than the name of your site, and the fact that you say upfront that you thought a particular design was worth "kloning". I would imagine that if you really wanted to do an exact copy of some of these designs, you would find a way to just disect one and copy it piece for piece. It would definitely take a lot less work!

      I don't build speakers because I can't afford commercial designs. Hell, I could save quite a bit of time and money if I didn't. I do this as a hobby because I enjoy it. I enjoy the learning curve, all the research, the building, testing, listening, but especially enjoy all the other folks that are willing to share their time and knowledge. Hell, I even get to help out others every once in a while, too.

      Pete
      Birth of a Media Center

      Comment

      • ThomasW
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 10934

        #4
        Pete

        This is a topic that surfaces from time to time. Recently there were threads on a couple of big forums.

        As a result we thought it might be an interesting topic for some discussion, since people are usually quite polarized in their opinions on the subject.

        The 'kloners' tend to be fairly outspoken about what they've done. The naysayers usually criticize the kloners for 'stealing' and or lacking the ability to create an original design.

        Jon and I of course both steal designs and lack the creative ability to make an original design :B

        PS: yes we could dissect an existing speaker to get the details. But we're too cheap to buy the speakers, and kloning without the inside information is a far greater challenge




        theAudioWorx
        Klone-Audio

        IB subwoofer FAQ page


        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15209

          #5
          Yeah, I always tend to think of myself as the Antonio Salieri of DIY...


          Understanding and learning from the works of others? Maybe this quote might be familiar...


          "People make a mistake who think that my art has come easily to me. Nobody has devoted so much time and thought to composition as I. There is not a famous master whose work I have not studied over and over"

          -Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart




          -Jon




          Earth First!
          _______________________________
          We'll screw up the other planets later....
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Hank
            Super Senior Member
            • Jul 2002
            • 1345

            #6
            Antonio, I'll comment from the level of the commoner opera. I received a phone call from a designer (from the South of France) Friday night and he asked my opinion of how he may have offended a couple of Kloners out there in 'net-land. I opined that he may have chosen he words a bit hastily. But my enlightening comment was that I view speaker designers as a strange combination of engineer and artist, since speaker design involves strightforward, formula-based software/hardware development, but then involves many hours of listening and tweaking art to get the sound right for that particular designer's ears. That artistic component gives way to favorite theories/designs/opinions that sometimes are disagreed with by other designers. Depending on how someone reacts to statements made by other "artists", an exchange of differences may take the form of completely professional stiff upper lip pleasant dialogue, OR may ocassionally slip into a personal "comment" or two, not meant as agressive as it sounds.
            It was a good hour on the phone, with understandings and a good discussion about line sources and drivers. I may try on of those challenges myself.
            Keep on kloning, boys. We understand you are much more than copiers.

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              'south of France'

              That's too funny Hank.... :B

              Miscommunication is rampent on the net. People often fail to properly choose the words they type. Since it's impossible to see the expression on their face; it's extremely easy to type something and have it completely misunderstood by the reader. As a result it's VERY important to carefully choose the words used, and the way those words are presented. If this isn't done, what comes off as a casual nonoffensive statement in a face to face conversation, becomes an insult when placed in a post. Also the repeated use of quoted text is almost always percieved as being an offensive gesture.

              If there has been a serious miscomminication issue then email or the telephone should be use to clear up the problem. Also online forums aren't an appropriate or effective place to air personal issues or try clarify personal differences of opinion. And trying to use a forum to that end, guarantees the situation will worsen instead of improve. Anyway.....

              Actually those klone boys are winding down the number of 'klone' projects. It was an interesting learning experience and provided inspiration and motivation for several 'original' designs. The Arvo project being one. But wait, isn't Arvo a 'klone' of the Audio Artistry Vivaldi?




              theAudioWorx
              Klone-Audio

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15209

                #8
                Hi Hank,

                One of the things which may be often overlooked when "bench racing" different speaker designs, is that as you say, there is a strong "rational" component to design, but sometimes the things that make a particular product appealing to the senses come about because of an unexpected or anticipated benefit to the overall design, which exists to a degree that it makes up for otherwise obvious flaws. This is, IMO, the "art" part, and also why some systems or components may have a strong appeal to some individuals (analogy: if you like red-heads in genearl, you'll probably be more attracted to women with red hair than brown, all other things being equal, and admitting there is no "objective" basis for the superiority of red hair (well, I know otherwise, but lets leave that out!


                High end audio is filled with products like that- which is why I mentioned the Andra above, though many more can come to mind. What distinguishes these products, flaws and all, and causes them to be successful in the market place (at least to some degree), is that they do some aspect of the music reproduction thing rather well- even if they fall down on their putz in other areas. It's my personal obervation that what some products do well isn't even what the marketing poop from the firm selling it claims is it's rationale for existense.

                Recalling the "Design the ideal subwoofer driver" thread on a forum which will go unnamed for now, , imagine we started a similar thread and tried to throw into the pot every single interesting design element or concept from "current thinking" in home speaker systems.

                Maybe we could make a party game for audio types out of this: use a "grab bag"; toss all the design concepts you can think of written down on individual pieces of paper, then for each person's turn you have to draw three or four pieces and in five minutes come up with a concept sketch of a design....

                Man, that's one sad commentary that I could even think for a moment that could be an interesting party game!

                Concepts would include the typical concepts in vogue. (remember, they can be mutually exclusive, in many cases; that's the schizophrenic nature of the high end):



                Monopole radiation
                Dipole radiation
                MTM
                Line source
                Point source pulsating sphere
                Columnar horizontal omnidirectional

                Transient perfect crossover
                "Infinite slope" crossover
                Active crossover
                Conjugate terminated passive crossover
                Series crossover
                No crossover

                Natural wood cabinets
                MDF cabinets
                Ferro concrete cabinets
                Phenolic composite cabinets
                Airfoil baffles
                Marble cabinets
                No cabinets...

                Horn loaded drivers
                Planar drivers
                Servo controlled drivers
                Ionic/plasma drivers
                Paper cone drivers
                Ceramic Drivers
                Metal cone drivers
                Plastic cone drivers
                Drunken drivers....



                Hmmmm, better not quit my day job, huh?



                Interpersonal communication face to face with people you know (you think) is not always smooth and transparent; even in this mode there is the possiblity of meanings taken that aren't intended. Written communication is even more of an art, as there are no non-verbal clues to rely upon - yet the writer may assume them.

                There are things you can say with a lopsided grin or a slight smirk which are interpreted quite differently if accompanyied with a deadpan delivery.

                It is all too easy (especially on the Internet with it's quick response and no necessity for "cooling off" for a perceptual construct to be generated which leads to an escalation of dialog into exchanges with more heat than light. This is out of control on some forums, but on the best, it's reigned in promptly.

                As I mention above, there are those matters of art, and naturally artists feel very strongly about their own art, and their subjective interpretation of it. When strong statements are made to others, this can lead to strong disagreements unless there's a little bit of perspective, that this is just not really a big deal one way or the other, compared to, say, finding a cure for cancer or world hunger. Or missing a coworker recently dead of cancer at the age of 27.

                I'm glad you had a good chat with your designer friend; I'm sure your friendship with him benefits him as well as you.


                Best regards,

                Jon




                Earth First!
                _______________________________
                We'll screw up the other planets later....
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Hank
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 1345

                  #9
                  So, Jon, you do have objective evidence of the superiority of redheads? Let's explore this further: is the evidence in the realm of personality, or interpersonal relations, or other observable phenomena? This is important, because I've been leaning towards the blonde versions and the characteristics of their particular presentation thus far. As stated above, some of the outstanding qualities of a particular design can mask, at least for a period of time, one or more areas where the performance is not so pristine. Of late I do notice a paucity of redhead models - or is that my artistic bias has blinders on me? Tell me more about this red thing.

                  Ah yes, the written word. Started many a conflict and fanned the fires of passion for centuries, right? Face-to-face communication hasn't been improved upon by the pen, the word processor and certainly not by the 'net.

                  I'll leave you artists from California to the South of France, with a few words from Billy Joel:

                  "I need to know that you will always be
                  The same old someone that I knew
                  What will it take 'till you believe in me
                  The way that I believe in you.

                  I don't want clever conversation
                  I never want to work that hard, hm...
                  I just want someone that I can talk to
                  I want you just the way your are."

                  Well, I'm about to get busy - The Austin Symphonic Band's first season rehearsal is tonight - time to dust off the old clarinet.
                  BTW, I don't have any speaker designer friends - they're way too temperamental, and they don't drink tequila.

                  Comment

                  • Brian Bunge
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Nov 2001
                    • 1389

                    #10
                    BTW, I don't have any speaker designer friends - they're way too temperamental, and they don't drink tequila.


                    Hank,

                    I'm attempting to be a "designer" of sorts and I drink tequila. Well, in Long Island Iced Tea!

                    Brian

                    P.S. I wonder what I should do with the 16 Neo 8's I'm coming into?

                    Comment

                    • Hank
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 1345

                      #11
                      Brian, you aren't a full-fledged designer yet, so you're still a friend
                      Well, if you've read all this line source stuff I've tried to stir up on this forum, I think I have a suggestion for those NEO 8's. For an experiment with least cost, you might whip up a 3/4" MDF panel, route out a rectangle, ala those Alpha's you're building and install 8 NEO's. Let's see, they're 7 7/8" tall, so that's a 63" stack. Adjacent, install maybe 9 of those MCM 6 1/2" drivers that Jon likes. Xover at 500 - 600 Hz.
                      Thomas, how does that sound? What taper would you do on the woofer side of the baffle?

                      BTW, what happened to the format of this thread? It's "squeezed" very narrow - Brian, what did you do?

                      Comment

                      • Brian Bunge
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Nov 2001
                        • 1389

                        #12
                        BTW, what happened to the format of this thread? It's "squeezed" very narrow - Brian, what did you do?

                        Hank, I don't know. It started that as soon as I posted above! I must have special, super hero powers or something!

                        Super Bunge Man

                        Comment

                        • ThomasW
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 10934

                          #13
                          Gees, you two guys can't be left alone for 2 minutes without messing something up! Now you broke the forum and my post is in a different dimension. Well actually maybe that appropriate since I've always been slightly warped :B

                          HELP Mats, we've got a scripting error !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                          Hank

                          Jon really likes redheads, but he hasn't had a redheaded girl friend in decades!

                          I use a separate piece for the taper it's 2" at the top and 10" at the bottom, But that's for the RD-75's. Keep the same bottom width and stop the taper at the appropriate height for the array being used. I'm playing around with a couple of different taper to seee how much difference there is when the taper changes.




                          theAudioWorx
                          Klone-Audio

                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                          Comment

                          • Hank
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 1345

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Brian Bunge
                            Super Bunge Man
                            Brian, You mean "Super Bungee Cord Man"

                            Lex, it's that kid Brian. He did it. He messed up your professional forum.

                            Thomas, I want Jon to share his "objective" test results re redheads. I may discover that I've been looking at the wrong type of construction Also, please post a design for Brian ASAP so he can be kept busy in the shop.

                            Comment

                            • ThomasW
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 10934

                              #15
                              Ok I fixed it..........

                              There were two posts where there was only one "/Qoute' tag in each post. That screws up things big time .

                              I don't know how anyone could have been objective regarding 'Cindy' (I think her name was) she was the last redhead Jon dated and she was a mind altering, jaw dropping, head spinning FOX!!!!!!

                              Brian get back to work we need 45 of those boxes by Thursday.....and keep you fingers off the 'submit' button :B




                              theAudioWorx
                              Klone-Audio

                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                              Comment

                              • Brian Bunge
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Nov 2001
                                • 1389

                                #16
                                Hank,

                                My first girlfriend was a redhead! Ah, to be 16 again! All that testosterone and no clue what to do with it all!

                                Thomas,

                                I've been more than busy in the shop lately and still have 2 more baffles to finish for those Al**as. The 16 tweeters are part of a deal with the costumer since he decided he didn't have time to finish the raw MDF boxes. When I get the time (and the tweeters) maybe I can build a quick dipole array. But then again, I guess I'd need those freakin' MCM drivers to do anything with them.

                                Brian

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15209

                                  #17
                                  Yeah, Lucinda Borchard was not the kind of gal you could be very "objective" about in my opinion... d*mn smart, too. Woth having a long distance relationship between Colorado and NYC...

                                  Hey Thomas, remember that Karen was kind of auburn haired also... though not the same league, still a very nice lady in her way, and at least it was last decade, not the 70's! :LOL:


                                  -Jon




                                  Earth First!
                                  _______________________________
                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • ThomasW
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10934

                                    #18
                                    Oops I got Lucinda (she's Pete's sister? ) confused with 'Cindy'. I think she was one of the ladies that worked at the hair salon across from the'Gallery'?

                                    Anyway in the good old days when we both had were long and lean with a full head of hair, the ladies were our oysters :B




                                    theAudioWorx
                                    Klone-Audio

                                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                    Comment

                                    • Hank
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2002
                                      • 1345

                                      #19
                                      Alright, boys! Finally a DIY thread with some meat! A thread that has my attention. Enough about speakers for a while. Lex, you host a socially redeeming forum. Now, on with the objective test results showing the superiority of redheaded women. I've never had one of those types. Hmmm...you know, come to think of it, there's a very well constructed redhead bass clarinet player in our band...

                                      Comment

                                      • Patrick Sun
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 1380

                                        #20
                                        I've been smitten by the redhead on USA's "The Dead Zone" (character name is Dana, listed name on the credits is Kristen Dalton).

                                        How did we get from kloning speakers to redheads?




                                        PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
                                        PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs

                                        Comment

                                        • PMazz
                                          Senior Member
                                          • May 2001
                                          • 861

                                          #21
                                          Pat, you're kloning redheads?

                                          Now that's what I call DIY!

                                          Pete

                                          PS: Does this have anything to do with your nekkid speaker line?
                                          Birth of a Media Center

                                          Comment

                                          • Hank
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Jul 2002
                                            • 1345

                                            #22
                                            Kloning redheads? Alright! I could have one with the specific response/performance characteristics I wanted! :twisted:

                                            Comment

                                            • David Meek
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 8938

                                              #23
                                              Hmmm. The turn this thread has taken gives a whole new meaning to "do it yourself". :banana:

                                              Seriously though, thanks guys for this thread. It's nice to hear you discussing the thinking behind the work. FWIW, if I ever get to the point of being able to do quality DIY speaker building, I'd love to klone my current "wants", either Vienna Acoustics Beethovens or Aerial 10/12Ts.
                                              8)




                                              David - HTGuide flunky
                                              Our "Theater"
                                              Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

                                              .

                                              David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                                              Comment

                                              • ThomasW
                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 10934

                                                #24
                                                David

                                                If Jon's life ever return to 'normal'. Meaning he's not traveling the world for fame and fortune, I think you'll find the Arvo Pärt Design to be a very interesting project. It should be extremely competitive with the Audio Artistry products




                                                theAudioWorx
                                                Klone-Audio

                                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                Comment

                                                • Steve Goff
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Feb 2002
                                                  • 186

                                                  #25
                                                  Sorry to have come late to this subject. I think kloning is a fine pursuit. Student artists have a long tradition of copying masterworks, helping them learn technique at the service of art and art appreciation. Unless you try to pass something off as an original of another designer, there is nothing wrong with this in speaker design. And eventually, you end up wanting to move on to something more original.




                                                  Steve Goff
                                                  Steve Goff

                                                  Comment

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