What I learned @ RMAF 2009

[bemis23]

You may want to re-read who has said what.

I think most of us agree with some of the criticisms that Greg leveled, but several were put off by the way in which they were phrased. Personally, I thought some of it was somewhat ironic. As for Bemis, he and I have overlapping tastes.

LOL.. It's pretty hard for my tastes to not overlap with just about anyone somewhere. I don't care for much opera but my "Now Playing" posts run all over the map

I love all kinds of music. It has a subliminal affect on me that I've learned to harness and control to some extent through material. Better speakers just makes the subliminal effects stronger

[Curly Woods]

Please look at the current state of the market. High end shops are dying left and right. They are not being replaced. If you take a look at the various industry sources many are shifting their businss models over to portable music.

Companies are changing their business models to meet these new consumer needs. High-fi as you know it is not thriving.

Other businesses have succeeded in capturing the part of the market that is often ignored. Look at how Bose has gotten crazy rich while speakers like the Dunlavy's have gone under.

Consumers have spoken and many prefer convenience over absolute sound quality. Look at the trends in home theater speakers. The last place a consumer can fit large speakers into their home is here. The baffles are getting narrower and the quality is diminishing. Consumers are happy with less than was expected before. The term "Good Enough" comes to mind.


You and I both prefer higher quality sources but we are not in the majority. You can take my word for these trends in High end audio or you can look further for more information.

You have delivered some good thoughts on sales and high end audio. Please refrain from using words like "rant". I don't know why but sometimes I get the impression on this forum that young(er) people should pack their bags and head elsewhere. I purpose not to flash my credentials, in order to gain respect. You may not know me well but I am hoping that we can be allies vs enemies.

I personally think what you are seeing is the shrinking middle class in this country. Our sales took a nose dive starting in early 2000 and never recovered. After talking to many other dealers across the nation, it seemed to be wide spread.
The mid-fi crowd will always be around, but not even those stores have weathered this economic storm. You have Best Buy filling some what of the mid-fi void, but not with any credibility. Retail of any kind has been hammered over the past 10 years with ever increasing lease rates, higher cost of goods and a depleted work force that once bought those items. They are now more focused on housing, food and transportation. Ask the boat dealer, the motorcyle dealer or any other big ticket retailer how their sales have been since early 2000. I would venture to say that more than 1/2 half across the US have gone out of business since 2000 and not one has seen anyone step into replace them. I don't think any hobby retailers would say that they are even close to the levels prior to that. People simply do not have the funds for big ticket hobbies that they once did. Believe what you want, but retail is suffering big time and it is far from over for any of them.

[Bear]

You have delivered some good thoughts on sales and high end audio. Please refrain from using words like "rant". I don't know why but sometimes I get the impression on this forum that young(er) people should pack their bags and head elsewhere. I purpose not to flash my credentials, in order to gain respect. You may not know me well but I am hoping that we can be allies vs enemies.

I'm not really trying to pick a fight with anyone. I come to the forum to learn as much as the next guy. The key is in making sure that the way you phrase your perspective is a way that people can understand and can respond to in a constructive way. When you use the imperative multiple times in a post -- it comes across as something of a call to action or, well, a rant. I'm sorry if it offends, but it did come across as such. Sorry!

[brianpowers27]

When you use the imperative multiple times in a post -- it comes across as something of a call to action or, well, a rant. I'm sorry if it offends, but it did come across as such. Sorry!

You are right. I did get a little heated about that point.

I need to have myself a slice...


side note: I have been pondering what effect the cost of newstand magazines has had on the high end audio market. It seems that the magazines revenue sources shifted from magazine fees to article fees. I imagine the magazine is now about %80 paid for by the very advertisers that the magazines review. The consumer could be confused by the flowery language in reviews. It could be that the articles are written in such a way as to not bite the hand that feeds them.

[savage25xtreme]

Aside from the current discussion I've got to say that I've gotten that impression several times from some of the posts that I've read. I've just shrugged it off as

1) I asked a stupid question
2) Inherent issues in communicating via internet forums

but sometimes I can definitely feel the "Get off our lawn" vibe around here.

There is a certain moderator that has a, curmudgeon, type attitude, but he does not discriminate, he hates everyone equally. :rofl:

That is the only negative feeling I have had on this forum, as a younger member, and I have grown to love and expect it. I always laugh when a n00b asks a question that has been posted 385 times and say to myself, Thomas is about to scold them.... haha. I will honestly say I visit other audio forums but this is the one I would call home. :T

I personally think this entire post is a bunch of BS, let the OP think what he wants its his opinion and he is entitled to it. I'm surprised our favorite curmudgeon has not put an end to this nonsense.

I think ill go home and make me some cable risers so the electrons can flow from my receiver and into my speakers with lower interference :W

[Curly Woods]

There is a certain moderator that has a, curmudgeon, type attitude, but he does not discriminate, he hates everyone equally. :rofl:

That is the only negative feeling I have had on this forum, as a younger member, and I have grown to love and expect it. I always laugh when a n00b asks a question that has been posted 385 times and say to myself, Thomas is about to scold them.... haha. I will honestly say I visit other audio forums but this is the one I would call home. :T

I personally think this entire post is a bunch of BS, let the OP think what he wants its his opinion and he is entitled to it. I'm surprised our favorite curmudgeon has not put an end to this nonsense.

I think ill go home and make me some cable risers so the electrons can flow from my receiver and into my speakers with lower interference :W

Make sure to use Myrtle wood or Maple

[Curly Woods]

side note: I have been pondering what effect the cost of newstand magazines has had on the high end audio market. It seems that the magazines revenue sources shifted from magazine fees to article fees. I imagine the magazine is now about %80 paid for by the very advertisers that the magazines review. The consumer could be confused by the flowery language in reviews. It could be that the articles are written in such a way as to not bite the hand that feeds them.

You are absolutely correct on this point nowadays. I recall when Absolute Sound had far more content than advertising and HP was the leader of the group. He set the tone for all the reviewers to follow and the magazine made sense. Since the mid 90's the high end rags have lots any sense of focus and everything is stellar. I quit reading them as I could never get any idea from a reviewers opinion what the true story might be. Every good reviewer had a bias as to what they looked for in a component/system, but if you read them regularly, you could "work around" their opinions as you come to know what their biases were. Those days are gone now and you only get that every component is great and nothing sucks anymore. The good ones are all gone and they have been replaced with wishy washy reviewers that change their minds about what they like on a weekly basis. I can not believe that any of them still exist as they are totally worthless to draw a serious conclusion about what is being reviewed anymore. No substance and a lot of BS language that makes little to no sense about what they are hearing or can be understood by the readers.

[augerpro]

I always laugh when a n00b asks a question that has been posted 385 times and say to myself, Thomas is about to scold them.... haha.

I've laughed at the same thing too a few times In person Tom is extremely generous and a great host, he just plays a carmudgeon on the internet.

[Space]

There is a certain moderator that has a, curmudgeon, type attitude, but he does not discriminate, he hates everyone equally. :rofl:

That is the only negative feeling I have had on this forum, as a younger member, and I have grown to love and expect it. I always laugh when a n00b asks a question that has been posted 385 times and say to myself, Thomas is about to scold them.... haha. I will honestly say I visit other audio forums but this is the one I would call home. :T
:W

Hey now, seems to me this site's moderators are remarkably generous with their time and attention when it comes to fielding questions, even those being asked for the 385th time! You don't see that many examples of responses that consist only of the :eyeroll: emoticon.

[savage25xtreme]

Hey now, seems to me this site's moderators are remarkably generous with their time and attention when it comes to fielding questions, even those being asked for the 385th time! You don't see that many examples of responses that consist only of the :eyeroll: emoticon.

we really have this post off topic now! No one will deny that we have some awesome moderators that donate copious amounts of time to keeping this forum going and helping ALL of us with our questions and problems.

Look at the build thread below my signature... who answered 90% of my "dumb" questions? :T

[penngray]

Sorry if you happen to agree with Greg. It amazes me when people write things about how great they are and how bad everyone else is and then they are blown away when people respond to them in a negative manner.

You probably peddle hi end speakers and even worse something like cables for 20 years so I suspect you have been brainwashed a very long time. The guy has every right to post his thoughts about the event...Did you go? Why not just post your own thoughts instead of attacking him!


I think the OP has a valid point, the pictures from shows like RMAF that show cable lifters etc make me puke and it makes me even more annoyed that no one questions them at those shows. The next would be the horrible in room setups, these guys couldnt even get a job plugging in my computers for my company....its audio! Set it up properly or do not even bother showing up and that includes PORTABLE acoustical treatments.



I think Greg has a LARGE majority of the public behind him and that is why traffic is down year after year. The biggest excitement to me is all the great DIY creations!

[penngray]

The OP doesnt seem young to me...maybe people should stop saying he is young and they are old?

[JoshK]

I agree with a lot of what you are describing, Mike, except one point. Hi-fi, as demonstrated at RMAF, doesn't seem to be targeted at the middle-class. Obama defines the middle class as families making less than $150,000 a year. With speakers costing upwards of $40,000 being common at these shows, I don't think their target demographic is middle-class.

It isn't really a stretch to see what the hi-fi industry is suffering, even if there was a new generation of audiophiles coming into the scene continually. The reason has as much to do with lower barriers to entry IMO. Any educated guy with some energy, smarts, a laptop and minimal gear can become a speaker manufacturer. The internet provides your access to customers.

Its a fundamental understanding in economics that to be a competitive company, you either provide a superior product (technology that noone else has) or you compete on price by offering the product with the cheap price point. Hi-end audio is a small market segment (even that fractionalized to hell) so the high input costs have to be spread out over just a few sales, meaning it is hard to compete on costs. The other economic technique is differentiation. This can be marketing or technological. Since for speakers, most everyone has access to the same drivers and the technology is available to the motivated individual, well I'll let you complete the picture.

Audiophile approved caps don't compete on price, they work the differentiation angle.

[Dennis H]

I enjoyed Greg's comments. Others at the show had similar things to say although they were a little less blunt about it. Bottom line, not many outstanding demos for whatever reason -- bad room acoustics, bad setup, bad gear, undemanding music, etc.

I'd think anyone who's willing to buy a ticket to such an event should be considered a potential customer and treated with respect. Judging someone by his age or his dress is ludicrous. Maybe it's because I've always lived in places where people go to escape the white-collar world, but I know a few really wealthy guys (no I'm not one) who would bust a gut at the notion of ditching their jeans and dressing up to impress a salesman.

[Curly Woods]

You probably peddle hi end speakers and even worse something like cables for 20 years so I suspect you have been brainwashed a very long time. The guy has every right to post his thoughts about the event...Did you go? Why not just post your own thoughts instead of attacking him!


I think the OP has a valid point, the pictures from shows like RMAF that show cable lifters etc make me puke and it makes me even more annoyed that no one questions them at those shows. The next would be the horrible in room setups, these guys couldnt even get a job plugging in my computers for my company....its audio! Set it up properly or do not even bother showing up and that includes PORTABLE acoustical treatments.



I think Greg has a LARGE majority of the public behind him and that is why traffic is down year after year. The biggest excitement to me is all the great DIY creations!

If you agree that is your opinion. I don't think I have been brainwashed just because I have been exposed to vast experiences with of many of the finest equipment ever created on a daily basis, for many years. My experiences are what have taught me about what makes really good high end equipment special. I also appreciate great DIY, as I think a lot of great high end manufacturers, were DIYer's, before they became great audio manufacturers. Maybe you don't agree with that. I love DIY, that is why I am here.

I simply can not believe the attitude that a lot people have for the very products that make this hobby so special to so many. Sure there is a lot of snake oil, but most right minded people can see it for what it is, I hope.

If not for the efforts of a great many of these manufacturers, we might have never known or pushed component manufacturers to produce better and better components. What if we were all still limited to Yamaha receivers?

I simply can not understand the public view that anyone that likes great hi-fi is either delusional or crazy. Some of the most educated people that I know are "audiophile" types. Doctors, lawyers, electrical engineers, etc. Why is it that if someone believes something that many do not care about or do not care to understand that they are attacked? I did not come here to attack anyone for not liking anything. I come here to share a passion for great hi-fi, period. Not everyone will agree, but that is to be expected. I would never tell anyone that something that they like is garbage though. Who in the hell would I think that I am to feel that is justified or proper?

This will digress into a flame war, so I tried to stay out of it. Greg has every right to his opinion, but he was rather vicious in his views, IMO. Believe what you will, but be kind enough to allow others the latitude to do the same. This is a hobby that has many passionate people in it. I hope that there is room for everyone to exist and still be considered to normal human beings.

Show environments are typically terrible, but where else can you go to see all of these different manufacturers at one time. It is not meant to be a showcase, more of a gathering, so that manufacturers can meet and display their goods. If you expect great sound from a shoe box sized hotel room, what does that say about our expectations? I never went to a CES show expecting to hear speakers, especially with any low frequency capabilities, to sound great. It was more of an opportunity to meet vendors, check out whats new and discuss future business. Rarely have I ever heard many great setups at one of these shows. I never expected it though.

[bemis23]

I enjoyed Greg's comments. Others at the show had similar things to say although they were a little less blunt about it. Bottom line, not many outstanding demos for whatever reason -- bad room acoustics, bad setup, bad gear, undemanding music, etc.

I'd think anyone who's willing to buy a ticket to such an event should be considered a potential customer and treated with respect. Judging someone by his age or his dress is ludicrous. Maybe it's because I've always lived in places where people go to escape the white-collar world, but I know a few really wealthy guys (no I'm not one) who would bust a gut at the notion of ditching their jeans and dressing up to impress a salesman.

My father-in-law is just such one of those people. Funny anecdote:

My father-in-law got done working out in his woodshop one day and his wife wanted to go look at a new car for him. He took a shower and changed into some clean clothes, but didn't get dressed up expecting to get back to work on his project when he got home. They went to the local Mercedes dealership and no one wanted to talk to an blue-collar looking Hispanic man (this is south Florida). Same story at the Jaguar dealership. Same story at the Audi dealership. Went to the local BMW dealership and promptly bought a $110,000 7-series because the folks there were nice, polite, and respectful. The next day he drove back to the other dealerships after church, dressed nicely and driving the Bimmer. The reps all wanted to sell him a car then, and his reply to all of them was "So you didn't want to sell me a car yesterday because of how I looked and because I pulled up in an old Dodge truck? You shouldn't have been so quick to judge. I wonder what your wife will say when she realizes you missed the commission from selling a hundred thousand dollar automobile?" Zing!!!

[gbegland]

Wow! This turned into a ball of fun. Grat posts guys from both sides of the aisle.

My age makes no difference to any of this as far as I see it, but to clear up a few points:

I was in no way trying to stroke my own ego. My point about the demo disk that I made was that I was actually suprised at how many folks commented on my choices to play little clips of a variety of music. It just seemed like the right thing to do given the time constraints of the show. I actually expected more rooms to be doing something along these lines. You are lucky enough to get the play your own disc, so make it count.

About the rooms we discovered with problems, again I was not trying to show off, but merely point out the fact that if I discovered that many problems in the maybe 25 rooms I seriously checked out, that is a very sad state of affairs for the hi-fi industry. This is where dealers and manufactures have a chance to show off their pride and joy, their hard earned creations. How could so many let little things slip? How many other srooms had problems? Surely I was not lucky enough to hit the only ones. Sure accidents happen, but if a vendor can't tell when their own system has a problem and I can in a mater of 6 minutes, what does that say about their credibility? Not showing off here, it just makes me go "Hmmmmm"

On the point about the gentelman who denied me a play, yes he was very dismissive and said "I can't be getting up and down all day" with an attitude, like I was out of line for requesting it. If he had just said, "Sorry, I have a playlist and am not accepting demos", that would have been fine with me. In each and every room, I made it a point to gratefully thank the host for allowing me the 6 minutes of music I had prepared. I feel that the host of the room DOES have the right to play whatever they feel fit, but if I can't hear what I am familiar with, then they have no chance of earning MY money.

Yes, I was little over the top with some of the points, but I was just wanting to have a little fun and was so worked up after the trip. I mean, come on guys, I came all the way from Orlando just for the show, so I must take this stuff pretty seriously. For me, sound reproduction is not just a hobby, but part of my livelyhood. I was actually expecting much better sound overall. Before the trip, I kept telling my engineer buddy who went with me how much better a good hi-fi system can be than what most people hear with traditional studio monitors. Turns out hi-end studio monitors are getting better while hi-fi is going crazy. AES is this coming weekend so we'll let you know how it goes in the pro world.

If you must know, Mike, the first cut on my disk is a female operatic vocal, followed by a male Italian vocal, but the disk builds from there with 2 jazz cuts, some percussion music, a killer R & B track from Maxwell & finishing off with a killer big band track by Michel Camilo. I'm not claiming that any of these tracks are the most amazing thing you will ever hear, but they do represent a broad range of styles and tasks for the system to perform.

As to the live music and how much of it that I hear, how would you know enough about my concert going habits to fire off several comments about the fact that maybe I need to get out of the studio and hear more real acoustic music. You don't suppose that the microphones get placed around the musicians by themselves do you? I also attend live jazz or classical concerts at least once a month here:

http://www.timucua.com/photo_album2.html

Does that count?

In any case, I really don't want to get into a petty pissing contest here. so lets keep those impressions of the show going and have some fun....

Greg

[Face]

I had a similar experience. I was dressed in my usual t-shirt/jeans and hit a few car dealerships looking for a new daily driver. At the first dealer, I asked about a particular model and they didn't have any on hand. I told them I'd like to order it and they blew me off. You should have seen the look on their faces when I drove past the showroom in my (almost new at the time) heavily modded Corvette. Needless to say, my family no longer does business there.

[Curly Woods]

I agree with a lot of what you are describing, Mike, except one point. Hi-fi, as demonstrated at RMAF, doesn't seem to be targeted at the middle-class. Obama defines the middle class as families making less than $150,000 a year. With speakers costing upwards of $40,000 being common at these shows, I don't think their target demographic is middle-class.

It isn't really a stretch to see what the hi-fi industry is suffering, even if there was a new generation of audiophiles coming into the scene continually. The reason has as much to do with lower barriers to entry IMO. Any educated guy with some energy, smarts, a laptop and minimal gear can become a speaker manufacturer. The internet provides your access to customers.

Its a fundamental understanding in economics that to be a competitive company, you either provide a superior product (technology that noone else has) or you compete on price by offering the product with the cheap price point. Hi-end audio is a small market segment (even that fractionalized to hell) so the high input costs have to be spread out over just a few sales, meaning it is hard to compete on costs. The other economic technique is differentiation. This can be marketing or technological. Since for speakers, most everyone has access to the same drivers and the technology is available to the motivated individual, well I'll let you complete the picture.

Audiophile approved caps don't compete on price, they work the differentiation angle.

You are right that the economics have escalated past what most people can afford anymore. When Krell made their 200wpc mono amps that we sold for $6500.00/pr, there were a great many people buying those. As the 1990's rolled into the 2000's, the pricing for a similar amplifier was in excess of $15,000/pr. Today we have $50,000+ amplifiers or more.

I am still trying to relive the days when really good audio was affordable to far more people. Boats are suffering a similar fate though as are motorcycles.

I am building a set of mono block tube amplifiers, with tube regulated driver stages and bias circuits. Somewhere along the way, the solid state components that many like today, took the magic out of tubes for me. DIY is my only choice these days, but by like token, I can roll my own and hopefully create the type of sound that I can not buy today.

[Carl V]

Greg (OP) is entitled to his opinion. It seems some are
attacking both the Messenger & the Message.

Many of Gregs points are valid...I just wish he had
massaged the wording a bit more. How old or Young
he is...I don't know & don't care.

I've been to all the RAMF's...many CES & quite a few other
shows here & abroad. It's a show. Not unlike a Car show
in Detroit or Germany. Audi shows both the sane & the insane.
Some of the cars are impractical or insanely priced but that's
part of the nature of these shows...to generate some buzz.
CES is there for Buzz & distribution. Giggles & grins.

There were many, many 'affrodable' systems just as there
were insanely priced products...& yes 'the emperor's Clothes"
comes to mind. It's a show. :T

Thomas is a very gracious man....
'asked & answered" many times
do a search. But he does keep
theis site from being a free for all...Thankfully.

Our Hobby is dying...because Music doesn't play as large
a roll in people's busy lives....as it did 30+ years ago. People
don't just sit & listen nor do they just sit & watch TV or DVDs.
They are up & down...multitasking. And as has already been stated
Good enough is-- good enough.

Show condtiions are tuff...& you can't really make any valid conclusions.
Ask Brandon about what a difference a room can make.
So Brandon...how'd your speakers sound once you got them back on
home turf...i.e., familiar surroundings? The tilted shelf XO was it
too bright.

[Curly Woods]

My apologies Greg. I far too often see people attacking what I spent a better part of my life promoting and enjoying. I have a great many friends thru this business and I would like to think that I have made a positive impact on their musical listening pleasure. I wear my emotions on my sleeves when it comes to hi-fi, more than I should, but again this is something that I have been passionate about and worked within the industry for over 20 years. Just as you are rightfully proud of what you do, I too am proud of what I hope that I had to do with my part of the audio experience.

[Dennis H]

You are right that the economics have escalated past what most people can afford anymore.

I don't buy it. Moore's law applies in audio just like it does in computers. You can buy a cheap receiver with DACs, etc. that would have been at unobtainium prices 10 or 20 years ago. The trick is being able to separate the non-correlated factors of price and quality. You can buy cheap crap and you can buy expensive crap.

[brianpowers27]

I don't buy it. Moore's law applies in audio just like it does in computers. You can buy a cheap receiver with DACs, etc. that would have been at unobtainium prices 10 or 20 years ago. The trick is being able to separate the non-correlated factors of price and quality. You can buy cheap crap and you can buy expensive crap.

I think Moore's law is dictating that devices get both cheaper and smaller but not higher quality. I guess this is the current state of people's busy lives. Like all things cyclical the cycle of fast paced life will eventually slow. Every 80 years, we come right back around.

[Curly Woods]

I don't buy it. Moore's law applies in audio just like it does in computers. You can buy a cheap receiver with DACs, etc. that would have been at unobtainium prices 10 or 20 years ago. The trick is being able to separate the non-correlated factors of price and quality. You can buy cheap crap and you can buy expensive crap.

Dennis again you have ever right to disagree. I have yet to hear anything that was cheap that would compete with a well executed product. It is a scale of economy. Great capacitors cost money, big power supplies cost money, etc. You are right there is alot of expensive crap out there that measures like no others, but when it comes to its sound quality, well I would not listen to it
The best designers that I have known, know how to meld it all together to make incredible sonic beauty. Many people could care less and they have that right. I am not going to argue it with them. I simply know what I like and what I enjoy listening too. Not all that is gold is worth its weight. Just my experiences from dealing with many of the so called great products.

[Dennis H]

I don't claim to have the most golden ear around but I know bad sound when I hear it. I recently helped a friend (one of those rich guys) set up a Pioneer SC-07 receiver (Wolfson DACs, Burr-Brown upsampling, ICEpower amps) with his Dynaudio speakers and it definitely didn't suck. To my ear, it was the best his system has sounded and he's had some spendy components in the past.

[augerpro]

So Brandon...how'd your speakers sound once you got them back on
home turf...i.e., familiar surroundings? The tilted shelf XO was it
too bright.

Yeah I cut it back to where it was, or just a hair higher. Sounded great! I'm going to take them down to my living room which is a much more typical sounding room. We'll see how it sounds there. I also need to do a direct comparison to my 3-ways that have been my reference for the last year. My gut feeling is that there is not a lot of major differences in the overall sound, but these obviously go much louder. I'm experimenting with crossing them in front of the listener.

[AJINFLA]

I did not come here to attack anyone for not liking anything.

WOW. Aren't we a little bit arrogant!

Sorry, but most of those manufacturers have more knowledge, than people like you

as your head has been placed so far up your rear with your own self worth

I doubt that you would ever know what real music outside of a studio would sound like.

You definitely posses the self analytical tools of an audiophile :W

I would never tell an engineer that they are stupid to have acquired the knowledge required to design a component

Good, because that knowledge is testable, not just claimed.
Required testable and verifiable to have passed courses and attained the degree.
If one claims to have acquired the knowledge to be able to play the piano (well or not), that is demonstrable. And verifiable.
If one claims to have acquired the training to be able to run 9.58 like Usain Bolt, that also is demonstrable. And verifiable.

so why is it so out of line that I have trained my brain to recognize difference between components.

Demonstrable and verifiable? Please explain how.
Or is this through self analysis?

cheers,

AJ

[Curly Woods]

I don't claim to have the most golden ear around but I know bad sound when I hear it. I recently helped a friend (one of those rich guys) set up a Pioneer SC-07 receiver (Wolfson DACs, Burr-Brown upsampling, ICEpower amps) with his Dynaudio speakers and it definitely didn't suck. To my ear, it was the best his system has sounded and he's had some spendy components in the past.

Dennis I never said that anyone is not entitled to enjoy anything did I? Its all about a means to an end. Everyone has levels of appreciation, no matter what their hobby. Relax and enjoy the music

[Rick Craig]

I didn't make it to the show this year but can share some light on things from an exhibitor's perspective. The standard rooms that most manufacturers use at the RMAF do have some bass issues and need some acoustic treatment since there's basically all reflective surfaces. The bass issue can be handled with parametric EQ on a sub and / or room correction (as I did last year). If you have a full-range speaker playing a recording with certain types of bass content you can easily overload the room (if I remember correctly there's a peak in the 70-80hz range).

I always allow for other music to be played because being able to listen to material you're familiar with is important for several reasons. As a manufacturer you never know what to expect - some tracks can be excellent while others make you want to leave the room. I've also witnessed magazine reviewers bring in tracks that were virtually worthless in terms of judging what a speaker could do. You take a risk in allowing others to bring in music and the companies that don't allow it are probably trying to avoid making a bad impression. Amazingly many people don't bring their own music anyway.

[Curly Woods]

You definitely posses the self analytical tools of an audiophile :W


Good, because that knowledge is testable, not just claimed.
Required testable and verifiable to have passed courses and attained the degree.
If one claims to have acquired the knowledge to be able to play the piano (well or not), that is demonstrable. And verifiable.
If one claims to have acquired the training to be able to run 9.58 like Usain Bolt, that also is demonstrable. And verifiable.

Demonstrable and verifiable? Please explain how.
Or is this through self analysis?

cheers,

AJ

Sir I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else. Why do you feel that anyone that does not agree with you must become a "lab rat" for your entertainment? I know what I hear, just as many others do. Why can you not leave it at that. Your attacking "audiophiles" as you understand them is your way of making fun of anything that you can not understand or simply reject is petty and childish.

I have over twenty years of "listening seriously" on a daily basis to some of the finest audio equipment ever made. I have trained my brain by listening to differences in all types of components. If this is beyond your ability to comprehend, that is not my issue, it is yours. Trying to pick arguments about something that you do not believe in shows that you do not want any constructive discussion, but rather to make yourself out to be some kind of superior being. What I know is based upon years of experiences, not a text book or some AES paper that was written with bias to begin with. If you do not agree with me that is not my issue. I am just like anyone else in audio, I love music. If that is not what we are here for I missed something along the way I guess.

[ThomasW]

Personal attacks or posts designed specifically to provoke have no place on this forum.

[Dennis H]

Sorry, Mike, but you're being hypocritical. Someone with a good ear walks into one of those demo rooms and says the sound sucks. You attack him for not knowing diddly compared to the guy in the room. And then you switch tracks and tell us how the ear is everything. B*****

[Curly Woods]

Sorry, Mike, but you're being hypocritical. Someone with a good ear walks into one of those demo rooms and says the sound sucks. You attack him for not knowing diddly compared to the guy in the room. And then you switch tracks and tell us how the ear is everything. B*****

Dennis do you know me? I don't think that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting you before, so how can you say how that I would react to such a situation? I worked in a very professional store and if you believe that behavior such as that would be allowed by the ownership, you are mistaken greatly. I would never lower myself to an obvious invitation to get into a childish squabble.
I have often had customers not find what they were looking for in our store. We never tried to please everyone, that is insanity. You do the best that you can with what you have and hope that your experience with your products makes the decision an easy one for any customer. Sometimes it does not. Life goes on, but I would never alienate a future customer by upsetting them with such a petty argument.

[AJINFLA]

Hey Greg, I just realized you're in the sunshine state. Does the studio ever have any down time where you could "borrow" it for an audio shindig?

cheers,

AJ

[gbegland]

Hey Greg, I just realized you're in the sunshine state. Does the studio ever have any down time where you could "borrow" it for an audio shindig?

cheers,

AJ

OF Course! I bring people by all the time. We had a luncheon last month with some local engineers and producers to see the new mains and the renovated control room. It was the highlight of my career when Bob Katz told me that the mains were the best he has ever heard in a studio! I can die in peace now..... Hit me with PM and we can arrange something.

Greg

[gbegland]

My apologies Greg. I far too often see people attacking what I spent a better part of my life promoting and enjoying. I have a great many friends thru this business and I would like to think that I have made a positive impact on their musical listening pleasure. I wear my emotions on my sleeves when it comes to hi-fi, more than I should, but again this is something that I have been passionate about and worked within the industry for over 20 years. Just as you are rightfully proud of what you do, I too am proud of what I hope that I had to do with my part of the audio experience.

No hard feelings my friend. We are all here because it is our passion and sometimes we get a little too excited. Look at how I started all of this.....

Greg

[Dennis H]

Dennis do you know me?

Nope. All I know about you is your (multiple) response(s) to Greg which, IMO, were way out of line. Who knows, his ear may be more golden than yours.

WOW. Aren't we a little bit arrogant! Sorry, but most of those manufacturers have more knowledge, than people like you, would ever realize, as your head has been placed so far up your rear with your own self worth, that I doubt that you would ever know what real music outside of a studio would sound like.... blah blah blah

[Curly Woods]

Nope. All I know about you is your (multiple) response(s) to Greg which, IMO, were way out of line. Who knows, his ear may be more golden than yours.

I apologized to Greg if you read carefully. I am passionate about audio and that I make no apology for to anyone.

My apologies Greg. I far too often see people attacking what I spent a better part of my life promoting and enjoying. I have a great many friends thru this business and I would like to think that I have made a positive impact on their musical listening pleasure. I wear my emotions on my sleeves when it comes to hi-fi, more than I should, but again this is something that I have been passionate about and worked within the industry for over 20 years. Just as you are rightfully proud of what you do, I too am proud of what I hope that I had to do with my part of the audio experience.

[bemis23]

Sad that hifi has come to this point. Debate and discussion is healthy, but over the course of the day I've read this thread many times over and not even we the supposed "intellectuals" can come to an agreement on the goal?

As for as Moore's law, I can assure you that it is alive and well. My father who has been in to hifi for as long, possibly longer, than anyone on this forum (he can clock better than 40 years in this hobby) talked to me today. Even he agreed that the prices have escalated beyond what most people can obtain.

He wasn't speaking about $100,000/pr speakers nor $50,000 amplifiers. I am desperately scraping, saving, and doing everything I can to build myself a pair of quality 3-ways. Has anyone considered what that costs now? Not just the cost of the speakers, but the cost of the overall hobby?
Here's what I've spent so far:

Table Saw - $250 (used from Craigslist)
Table Saw blade - $30
Router - $125 (heavily used from eBay)
Router bits - $120
Clamps - $115

That's $640 in basic used tools just to get started. That doesn't include your "basic" quality electronics. Lets assume for a moment that Emotiva is your basic level brand of choice:

Pre/pro UMC-1: $699
HT Amplifier UPA-7: $699

That's another $1400 in basic processing and amplification. Assuming you have a subwoofer (or two) you need at the most simple, an amp. EP2500 doesn't even come close to what most audiophiles consider minimum quality and thats another $250. So total for your amplification and processing electronics?? $1650.

A basic high-end two way MTM tower like the Natalie Ps runs $360 components (including the PE sale on the Dayton RS180s) plus an average of $300 for extra materials: binding posts, wood, paint/veneer, etc.. So you basic tower is ~$650.

If you have a basic HT setup you can count on atleast 3 more speakers (center, and two surrounds). ~ $400 for a center and ~$500 for a pair of basic surrounds that can mate well with Nat Ps. So what's our total system cost for a build that most would consider respectable (not counting any snake oil accessories like cables, interconnects, etc..)?

Speakers: $1550
Electronics: $1650
Tools: $640

Total: $3,840

Nearly $4,000 for a basic "audiophile" level system. I think that number basically speaks for itself. Even on a $100,000 household income ($138,000 household income represents the top 10% of ALL american households, so we're looking at maybe the top 12%??) that represents a solid 4% of gross. Now take into account mortgages, debt, cars, food, gas, taxes, etc.... and 4% of gross is a lot of money. No wonder that many people consider this to be an elitist hobby like yachting, cars, etc...

There are many people that have spent multiples of that $4K figure on this hobby and I gotta tell you - even though my household income is in the top 10% of the nation I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to pursue this hobby and maintain financial independence and security.

EDIT: I forgot to include a basic subwoofer setup. I think my subs would be considered basic (Dayton drivers and MDF construction). Still mine cost just over $500 so include that as well.....

[brianpowers27]

You definitely posses the self analytical tools of an audiophile :W ...

Demonstrable and verifiable? Please explain how.
Or is this through self analysis?

cheers,

AJ

Aj,

You are the master of stirring the s***. Find any good research articles lately? What are your listening impressions of the Neo3s sans backcup?

[David_D]

I'm done following this thread.

[brianpowers27]

That's $640 in basic used tools just to get started. That doesn't include your "basic" quality electronics. Lets assume for a moment that Emotiva is your basic level brand of choice:

Pre/pro UMC-1: $699
HT Amplifier UPA-7: $699

That's another $1400 in basic processing and amplification. Assuming you have a subwoofer (or two) you need at the most simple, an amp. EP2500 doesn't even come close to what most audiophiles consider minimum quality and thats another $250. So total for your amplification and processing electronics?? $1650.

A basic high-end two way MTM tower like the Natalie Ps runs $360 components (including the PE sale on the Dayton RS180s) plus an average of $300 for extra materials: binding posts, wood, paint/veneer, etc.. So you basic tower is ~$650.

If you have a basic HT setup you can count on atleast 3 more speakers (center, and two surrounds). ~ $400 for a center and ~$500 for a pair of basic surrounds that can mate well with Nat Ps. So what's our total system cost for a build that most would consider respectable (not counting any snake oil accessories like cables, interconnects, etc..)?

Speakers: $1550
Electronics: $1650
Tools: $640

Total: $3,840

Nearly $4,000 for a basic "audiophile" level system.

It is expensive but I must tell you that I will wow you on far less.

4x rs225 (used)= $110
HK AVR 247 refurb = $250
Neo8 pair = $120
PE 12" buyout = $30
Bash300 = $149
Behringer DCX 2496 = $250
Building materials + finishing supplies = $100
Tools = $40 (I seldom buy any tools that can't be reused)

Total = $1049

The real cost is time. I can't tell you that I will build the best thing you have ever heard at an uber budget cost but I can say most of us would be satisfied. I could build something that satisfies most tastes at a far lower cost. My main pair of dipoles cost me more in xo than drivers and the xo cost $110 for the pair. It sounds really solid and uses many of the principles that AJ has challenged me on. Most of us don't save money because we are tying to push the high end envelope.

With that said, this is a tough hobby on the pocketbook.

[Curly Woods]

With that said, this is a tough hobby on the pocketbook.

AMEN!

[AJINFLA]

OF Course! I bring people by all the time. We had a luncheon last month with some local engineers and producers to see the new mains and the renovated control room. It was the highlight of my career when Bob Katz told me that the mains were the best he has ever heard in a studio! I can die in peace now..... Hit me with PM and we can arrange something.

Greg

Cool. You do realize of course, I'm talking about bringing my own "mains" :B ?
There was a DIY at a TV studio in Lexington, but the acoustics were anything but home like. The DIY in Atlanta was terrific, much closer to home type acoustics.
The pic of your studio B however...:W. I'll shoot a PM.

cheers,

AJ