Who's Kloning Whom?

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15209

    Who's Kloning Whom?

    :LOL:


    Well, what a surspise this morning- there's a new project at the Linkwitz Lab's site



    Here is a picture of Siegfried's new baby, which he suggests as a "graduation" project for those who have been following the Phoenix and other posts on his site; as built, it's a fully active three way crossover, with Excel Magnesium 8" mid woofer instead of the ScanSpeak drivers he used in his earlier projects....

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    An Excel 8" midwoofer, crossed to a SEAS TC25 tweeter at 1440 Hz, and dual Peerless XLS 10" woofers which take over below 120 Hz from the 8" woofer.


    Gee, is there a passing similarity to the Arvo Part project, with dual HiVi M8a, a Vifa XT25, and dual Titanic II 10" woofers (which are actually 11's)?

    Too funny for words.....


    I don't have a current pic of the Arvo Part I can post from work before my trip today, but here's the last one I took....



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    The Arvo Part could be biamped, but I think it's simpler and more elegant (unfortunately, more difficult, too) to build a high quality passive crossover, and drive it with something that can put out some "volts", like my Palladium monoblocks.

    If you are interested in the Arvo Part project or building something similar, feel free to contact me for design alternatives and hand holding.


    This definitely brought a grin to my face this morning-



    Regards,

    Jon




    Earth First!
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    Last edited by theSven; 27 August 2023, 17:01 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    #2
    This is just too funny..... :B:B:B:B




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • Jack Gilvey
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2001
      • 510

      #3
      I saw that one also. I gotta do one of those.

      Comment

      • David Meek
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 8938

        #4
        Jon,

        Won't the little "wings" on the lower half of front edge of his cabinets impede horizontal dispersion? That is some georgeous woodworking, tho'.




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        • ThomasW
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 10934

          #5
          David

          Remember the woofers are mounted in free-air (dipole). The 'wings' are necessary to keep the rear wave of the woofers from wrapping around the baffle and canceling the front wave.




          theAudioWorx
          Klone-Audio

          IB subwoofer FAQ page


          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

          Comment

          • Jack Gilvey
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2001
            • 510

            #6
            How does one figure out the frequency at which the 6dB/oct dipole rolloff begins?

            Comment

            • Hank
              Super Senior Member
              • Jul 2002
              • 1345

              #7
              Yes, this is funny! I noticed that this morning also! Verrrrryy interesting indeed. You guys are on a mind-meld. Jon, Thomas has been holding my hand regarding my questions on line arrays, so if you take my other hand, I may learn some useful stuff! Nice to know some experts are nice enough to do hand-holding Too funny!
              So you're sticking with passive, eh?

              Comment

              • LeeW
                Junior Member
                • Jul 2002
                • 3

                #8
                How do I view the images at a smaller size, presently they are covering over other posts?

                Thanks,
                Lee

                Comment

                • PMazz
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2001
                  • 861

                  #9
                  Hank, talking about ironic....Tom must have both hands full with line array questions lately, because I've been picking his brain as well!

                  Jon, seeing as how his project is already finished...it looks like he's got bragging rights on this one.

                  Pete
                  Birth of a Media Center

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15209

                    #10
                    Siegfried certainly does have bragging rights! Besides that, his web site is one of the most comprehensive source of design information I've seen on the net, as long as you're happy following the math. It would have been great if his web site and some of his information had been available when I was developing the Whisper klone with Thomas a few years back, but that was before SL's site was up. It would have undoubtedly saved me a lot of work and effort.

                    But then, as I understand it, he's semi-retired, whereas I, unfortunately, am a dedicated wage slave with a daughter to put through college! So, it's an inspiration to see the amount of work he turns out and is willing to post on his site and share with others.


                    Re Jack's question; you can calculate where the 6 dB/octave roll off and other effects kick in based on the size of the dipole panel- SL's site goes into a wealth of detail re the model analysis. In practice, it's wisest to measure a "proposed" panel, especially at several distances from the panel, (including the planned listening distance and some margin plus and minus) with a room placement close to what you intend.

                    One of the benefits/side effects of the dipole configuration reducing room interaction is that you don't get the degree of room interaction and lift in the bottom end so common with box speakers placed at some reasonable distance from room boundaries- but, you also don't get the subjective "loudness compensation" this provides, and it's clearely more desirable to play a dipole system (IMO) at a volume closer to that of the original performance.

                    Hi Hank! I've done a lot of custom electronic crossovers- witness the implementation for the X1 SLAMM Klone I built a few years back.



                    Click image for larger version

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                    This included full transformer balanced outputs, and AD815 high current video buffers used inside the feedback loop of OPA627's biased into class A output stage operation. This crossover included LF equalization for the over damped reflex alignment I used (drivers with Qts of about 0.15) as well as baffle step compensation in shelving EQ.

                    However, as I've gotten older, my hearing has gotten a little more finicky, and as I've migrated to non-loop feedback active electronics, I've really developed a certain mindset against putting a lot of opamps in the signal path. Just call it one of my idiosyncracies Their are potential colorations to deal with with for active crossover circuits as well as for passive, and this time I've decided I'd rather deal with the passive circuit issues for now, at least in this iteration. Since I have a pair of Aragon Palladiums which will "go under the knife" shortly to be converted to my current NLFB design (combination of FET and Bipolar technology), I'll have some amps with plenty of output voltage and current for driving these. So the LF woofers will be wired in series, as well as the Mid woofers. The simulations of the final impedance characteristics look fairly benign.

                    Line source systems intrigue both Thomas and I; we did a little work on his big system this weekend, and we have some other ideas we want to play with and if they turn out well, share the results.

                    Best regards,

                    Jon




                    Earth First!
                    _______________________________
                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                    Last edited by theSven; 27 August 2023, 20:10 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                    the AudioWorx
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                    Comment

                    • Lex
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Apr 2001
                      • 27461

                      #11
                      Lee, HTGuide is NOT Netscape friendly. Best displayed with Internet Explorer. Sorry, just it's an explorer world now.

                      Welcome to our playpen!

                      Lex
                      Doug
                      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                      Comment

                      • EMT
                        Member
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 44

                        #12
                        Lee, if you don't want to use Internet Explorer (I don't blame you - I hate it too), Mozilla seems to display images on the forum properly. See http://www.mozilla.org

                        Comment

                        • LeeW
                          Junior Member
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 3

                          #13
                          Lex, EMT,

                          Thanks I Just upgraded browsers to Netscape 6 and it seems to be displaying the images properly.

                          Lee

                          Comment

                          • Hank
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jul 2002
                            • 1345

                            #14
                            Very impressive, Jon! So it's back to passive, eh? With the rush to active xovers, I always had a nagging question in the back of my mind: some of those circuits have LOTS of components, including the internal op-amp circuitry, so is there a possibility of signal degration of any form? I have always assumed that in addition to nice clean steep slopes, active crossovers were a way to avoid the very high cost of large value inductors and capacitors. But again, with the low op-amp prices comes all those extra components in the signal path. It's all one trade-off after another, right? :?

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15209

                              #15
                              Tradeoffs definitely are the name of the game; it's what engineering is all about, and it can be a real pain.

                              Different approaches have different drawbacks; sometimes it's not cut and dried as to what kind of "damage" to the music is most tolerable. In the end, it's what you hear that counts.

                              We've got Tom's big system working pretty well with a four way active crossover; of course, it's carefully configured so that the highest frequency stuff goes through the least number of gain stages.

                              There's opamps, and there's opamps; obviously, there are sonic differences betwee "premium" types such as OPA627, AD825, and AD8610, versus some of the more mundane performaners. THD and bandwidth alone don't seem to be the final arbiters of sonic performance, and the power supply and overall contruction is a big factor, too.

                              Mind you, for music these days I use a passive preamp, and interconnects that cost more than some Pre-Pro's. And all the active electronics I've been building lately are NLFB- non loop feedback designs. My current system at home doesn't have a conventional loop feedback amplifier (op amp or op amp architecture power amp) anywhere in the signal path. You may find if you try that path that it makes the whole discussion of solid state versus tubes a moot point. Don't ask me to explain why it sounds this way, and you'll certainly find a lot of folks that don't believe it can be true... but then they probably haven't tried it.

                              OTOH, ask Neil Sinclair, Charles Hansen, or John Curl... though the latter still designs loop feedback circuits for some of his clients, his own stuff is all NLFB these days also.

                              Active crossovers have some well known advantages with regards to damping factor at the driver and ease of implementation. But, when you're dealing with IB drivers and Dipoles, damping factor is not the issue it typically is, because it's hard to wind up with a Q higher than 0.5 even with moderate series resistance. So, being critically damped, or trying to control through electrical damping a speaker which isn't (Butterworth sealed = 0.707) is a non-starter. I can wind pretty big coils, and I know where to buy even bigger ones (NorthCreek, Solen).

                              The only real drawback I see is that with the drivers wired in series, sensitivity is somewhat low, which is why I figure I'd want an amp with some voltage capability, like my Palladium's which are a differential balanced bridge, and clip at over 600 watts at 8 ohms. By then, they won't be normal Palladiums, anymore; but that doesn't affect the power output.

                              Regards,

                              Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
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                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Hank
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 1345

                                #16
                                Thanks Jon. BTW, I just got a good deal on an Acurus 200x3 amp that should be decent sounding, based on reputation.

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15209

                                  #17
                                  The Acurus gear is nice; I think some of the new multichannel "Aragon" amps are really Acurs's in disguise- such as the 2005.

                                  -Jon




                                  Earth First!
                                  _______________________________
                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • Steve Goff
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2002
                                    • 186

                                    #18
                                    This all reminds me: I kloned Siegfried (or rather, one of his designs) nearly a quarter century ago!

                                    I first became interested in Linkwitz's crossover ideas and designs back in the late 70s, when he published articles in JAES and Wireless World. (I still remember going to the Seattle public library, and the U.W. engineering library, trying to get hold of those AES journals.) The Wireless World articles described his DIY speaker system, using (at first) KEF drivers and an active crossover with active compensation and delay. I decided to try a passive-crossover speaker using the same drivers he eventually settled on, a KEF midwoofer and an Audax tweeter. (I looked at that active crossover, with its dozens of 741 op-amps, and knew it couldn't sound good.) Whereas Linkwitz compensated for inter-driver delay by cascading several 741 op-amps, I decided to tilt the front of the speaker back, doing physically what he had done electrically. (This also let me run the tweeter slightly hot on axis, since listening would be off axis. Doing this allowed for good power to the room at high frequencies, and good off-axis response laterally.)

                                    I started with a box slightly larger than the LS-3/5A, which employed a similar KEF midwoofer; I used a coil slightly larger than that of the BBC monitor's tapped inductor to compensate for the small baffle and general lack of bass from that small driver. The corners of the box were rounded over, and the inside was sprayed with car underbody compound and lined with wool felt. Later commercial speakers, such as the head unit of the Aerial Acoustics 10HT, have a similar look. I set about designing a fourth-order crossover, using as a starting point a computer design Linkwitz had come up with, which turned out to be not much help.
                                    Eventually, using mostly my Audio Control RTA and various other crude instruments and devices, I came up with a surprisingly good passive 4th order Linkwitz-Riley crossover with a bit of a BBC dip.

                                    I mated this little box to a woofer box designed to act as a stand for the minimonitor. Inside each woofer box were 8 and 10 inch drivers, employing a circuit patented by a friend, Mila Nestorovic. The folks at Speakerlab made the boxes for me, and supplied the Nestorovic drivers. The crossover between the sattelites and the woofers was electronic, but minimalist (first-order, using caps a the input of the amplifiers).

                                    Unexpectedly, these speakers turned out to be wonderful, and were used for several years by my friend Stan Klyne (of Klyne Audio Arts) as his reference in designing his preamps and amp. We also used them to show his gear at CES for several years. I got inquiries about selling the design, but by then I was working in the law biz, and didn't want to let on that I really didn't know what I was doing.

                                    I still have these speakers in a closet, and take them out from time to time to listen to them. They are not the last word in detail and attack, but the image they throw up is to die for, and they're remarkably neutral. The best MUSICAL experiences I've had--listening to recorded music that is--came with these speakers, Klyne electronics, a good moving coil and turntable, and records.

                                    So, Herr Doctor Linkwitz has been helping out music-loving DIYers for a long time now. And Jon and Thomas are carrying forward with good work of their own. Thanks to all of them.




                                    Steve Goff
                                    Steve Goff

                                    Comment

                                    • Hank
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jul 2002
                                      • 1345

                                      #19
                                      Interesting post, Steve, and thank you. It's great to read about personal experiences of D-I-Yers as they have pursued accurate music reproduction over the years. I also appreciate the unselfish sharing and teaching from Thomas and Jon these days since I'm a mere dabbler/neophyte/nimrod.

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15209

                                        #20
                                        Thanks for the kind words guys, but we all stand on the shoulders of giants... starting with the first guy that figured out how to take a fire and work metal with it....


                                        -Jon




                                        Earth First!
                                        _______________________________
                                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • Jack Gilvey
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2001
                                          • 510

                                          #21
                                          starting with the first guy that figured out how to take a fire and work metal with it....
                                          Ah, yes, how could we forget ThomasW?

                                          Comment

                                          • SonicBooMan
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Jan 2005
                                            • 11

                                            #22
                                            I'm Interested

                                            Hi John,

                                            I'm an audiophile neophyte, and looking for design ideas. So far, I want to try the DIY approach to building dipole speakers. I've heard commercial box speakers which cost up to $8000/pr. Ouch! The price sticker shock!

                                            Anyway, I'm interested in the Linkwitz' Phoenix or Orion. I like the Phoenix idea because it is in two pieces (MTM & sub). The Orion is bulky to move (I think) because it is one piece. I like the modular idea of the Phoenix because I'm somewhat mobile, and ease of moving is paramount...well, OK, second to the sound quality.

                                            Could you provide some info on construction the Arvo, as you offered? I'm interested in building it too. It might be cheaper than purchasing Linkwitz' construction plans.

                                            Thanks,

                                            SonicBooMan

                                            Comment

                                            • ThomasW
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 10934

                                              #23
                                              The Arvo design can be built as 2 modules meaning an MTM top section and separate woofer section.

                                              Most of the info is here
                                              Last edited by theSven; 27 August 2023, 20:10 Sunday. Reason: Update htguide url

                                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15209

                                                #24
                                                It's been brought to my attention that my hosting site is preventing the downloads of the PDF files linked in the thread Thomas referenced- it underwent some re-structuring of what operations are allowed, and file naming conventions.

                                                I'll see what I can do to fix those links, and per a few other folks requests, we'll probably start a thread like the ones for the Modula MTM's which is dedicated to current contruction, measurement, and design info.

                                                Normally I wouldn't be sharing this much at this stage, because it's still something of a work in progress. We have a hybrid set running at ThomasW's, using active crossovers to the mid and sub woofer, but passive on the tweeter; my set is fully passive, without an auxiliary sub woofer. In Thomasw's, the TC2's are probably the worlds most expensive filler drivers...

                                                I'm a little surprised to see someone dug so far back into the arvhives and posted to this thread- but then these have been in the works in one form or another since early 2002. The current version has evolved a fair amount from the first- I'll fix that link, too.

                                                ~Jon
                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
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                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15209

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by SonicBooMan
                                                  Hi John,


                                                  Anyway, I'm interested in the Linkwitz' Phoenix or Orion. I like the Phoenix idea because it is in two pieces (MTM & sub). The Orion is bulky to move (I think) because it is one piece. I like the modular idea of the Phoenix because I'm somewhat mobile, and ease of moving is paramount...well, OK, second to the sound quality.

                                                  Could you provide some info on construction the Arvo, as you offered? I'm interested in building it too. It might be cheaper than purchasing Linkwitz' construction plans.

                                                  Thanks,

                                                  SonicBooMan
                                                  One thing I'd caution you about; DIY using an established kit and plans can probably save you a fair amount of money. Be cautios if you think that DIY will save you tons of money... especially if you don't have a past history of building and messing with stuff, and may have a bit of a learning curve at first.

                                                  DIY where you invest your own ideas and tooling and work is still not cheap- neither from a tools viewpoint, nor an investment of time. I have what I think is the best really cheap table saw in the universe for doing low volume work accurately- a Ryobi BT3100, which includes a fairly usable sliding miter table.

                                                  Still, that was a $300 investment, before I started buying blades, a router accessory kit, a mobile base, etc. You get the idea.

                                                  You don't want to know how many routers I have. Trust me, you don't. Then, there's my nice laser guided Hitachi sliding miter cutoff saw. That was more than the table saw. But it's very, very useful.

                                                  And I'm not a wood worker. I'm a double EE, a wires and sparks kind of guy. I do wood working out of necessity, because I can't do fiber glass layup and make synthetic cabinets. Guys like Pete Mazz, Hank, Paul H, Dennis H, Chris Keen, Brian Bunge, etc, are real woodworkers. I just do it to have something to put the speakers and crossovers in...

                                                  If you haven't done DIY projects before, something like this might be a bit much to chew on for a first go at it. Not to discourage you, but just to suggest you assess carefully and realistically.

                                                  Thomas initially did his Arvo's as somewhat modular, with an add-on woofer assembly for a second set of 12's. Mine are completely one piece, and what I have in mind for finishing them, appearance wise, will be similar to the original prototypes, so they'll be very much one piece. But that doesn't mean that you couldn't adapt this to a different approach. But with the higher crossover frequency, you shouldn't go for as much seperation, IMO, as Linkwitz does in the Phoenix. That's only feasible with a lower crossover frequency, which I don't advise or plan to use.

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Jon
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • mante
                                                    Member
                                                    • Jul 2004
                                                    • 72

                                                    #26
                                                    HDF stores

                                                    Any idea were to purchase 1/4" HDF? No one (lumber company) in my area seems to be able to order it. 1" MDF and 3/4" marine ply are both easy to obtain, yet HDF is elusive.

                                                    Craig

                                                    Comment

                                                    • ThomasW
                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 10934

                                                      #27
                                                      Any idea were to purchase 1/4" HDF?
                                                      Evil Orange sells 2'X4' sheets. That's what Jon is using

                                                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15209

                                                        #28
                                                        Mante, can you see if anyone in your area handles Sierra Pine Medite 3D? This is a high strength MDF type product, available in sheet thicknesses from 1/4" to 1-1/4".

                                                        ~Jon
                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • SonicBooMan
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Jan 2005
                                                          • 11

                                                          #29
                                                          Thanks, Jon

                                                          Thanks, Jon, for the wise counsel.

                                                          Yes, I realize the DIY avenue can be quite expensive because of all the tools. I scouted Home Depot and asked a sales-person to help me and explain the tools I would need to make a set of speakers. Not including the table saw, the tools I needed (minimal) cost about $350-500.00.

                                                          I'm pursuing the DIY route because I want to make speaker building a lifelong hobby. Therefore, I'm willing to spend a little cash obtaining the tools. Perhaps, it may not save me a ton of money, but the experience and enjoyment I will have gained would be fulfilling, emotionally & intellectually.

                                                          I discovered that I can do without (for now) a table saw. When I purchase the wood, Home Depot will cut the wood to specified dimensions for me. Each cut costs $0.25. That's not bad at all. All I need is a small saw that I could use if I need to cut a small piece.

                                                          My next step is learning how to use a router with the Jasper circular cutter. I've met a friend who is willing to teach me how to use some power tools.

                                                          So, I'm proceeding into this hobby with enthusiam and caution; and NOT jumping in head first, but very slowly.

                                                          SonicBooMan

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15209

                                                            #30
                                                            Well, you've got the right attitude if you're approaching this the way you describe, as an interesting hobby where the journey and process is as much a part as the ultimate product or goal.

                                                            Warning: It's addictive. People that don't know much about this hobby and lead more sheltered, "normal" lives ask me why I keep building speakers- they look at it as like going to Best Buy or Magnoilia HiFi, picking out a set of speakers, then you're done for 10 years or so.

                                                            A more apt analogy, is that it's like art... a painter doesn't stop painting new pictures just because he's already got a few up on the walls... it's the creative process and satisfaction that comes from it, plus the relationships you make with others who are into this same pastime- whether they're Padawan's or Jedi's.

                                                            Welcome to the hobby, and I wish you the best of results and most satisfying time getting there...
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
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                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • ThomasW
                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 10934

                                                              #31
                                                              Be careful with HD. Most of the stores are hard pressed to make an accurate cut within 1/2" of a given measurement.

                                                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Ten 99
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Apr 2004
                                                                • 133

                                                                #32
                                                                tools for the trade!?

                                                                Yes, what ThomasW said above is what you'll find. HOWEVER. There may be ways to get you into this hobby without spending too much, and still getting you some quality tools. I'm going to make a few recommendations here, and let others chime in as well. The recommendations I'll make a pretty solid, and based on experience of my own, experience of others, and lots of reading and an understanding of minimum tools necessary to make things work.

                                                                This might eventually make a good thread of it's own, as this topic comes up from time to time. Maybe even a sticky?

                                                                Sometimes people think that HD or Lowes will make good accurate cuts for them. Not likely. The kind of accuracy you are looking for won't likely be achieved by these folks with their equipment. You can't rely on the accuracy of the setup of their machines. Not that the machines they use are bad, just out of alignment and in need of adjustment. Then there's that urge to help the next customer, and lack of time put into something by them.
                                                                Here is a list of tools that one might think is required, and a list of alternatives:

                                                                Often people want to get a table saw to make all of their cuts. I agree, it's awesome to have, but not entirely necessary. A great alternative is to use a circular saw and a straight edge. In fact, this might even be a preferred method for breaking down sheet goods (like MDF, plywood, etc), as opposed to a table saw. One system which I like a lot, is made by EurekaZone. I don't personally own one, but I can tell you that it has gotten GREAT reviews by woodworkers - www.eurekazone.com - also, their package can be found regularly on Ebay for about $189 plus $19 shipping - see here . Well, you still need a circular saw. I would suggest buying a good quality tool. I personally like the Porter Cable circular saws, because they are well made and have very good dust collection (with a shopvac) which can be a big deal cutting MDF! This is an example of what I'm talking about.

                                                                Making sure your saw's baseplate is perpindicular to the blade, and blade is parallel to the edge of the baseplate is very important. Adjustments must be made to the tool when necessary. The straightedge system mentioned above will ensure your cuts are very crisp and straight. Taking time with some good squares to make sure your cuts are perpindicular is also important.

                                                                Lee Valley has some excellent Starret machinest squares that you purchase for a small fortune. Or, you can frequent a place called Harbor Freight (Gasp!). HF isn't a very good place for much, but there really are some things that they offer that are friggin bargains! There is a set of Machinest Squares that you can purchase that are FAR and away more accurate than the adjustable speed squares or carpenters squares that you can pickup at HD or Lowes. Also, if you look on that Eurekazone website above, they have a new jig listed on there that works with their straightedge system that is supposed to like the edge up perpindicular to the edge.

                                                                Speaking of Harbor Freight. Let's talk about routers. There are plenty of great routers on the market, and quite a few cheap pieces of crap too. I will tell you that if you can only have one router, and it must do a lot of things for you, that you might want to really consider the DeWalt DW621 2hp plunge router. It is an excellent router, with arguably the smoothest plunge action, and once again (IMPORTANT FEATURE) excellent dust collection when used with a shopvac. I know I'm wearing you out with the dust collection. Wood dust (and MDF in particular) is very hazardous for you to breathe. Please take this into consideration and wear a mask, and try to control the amount of dust you put into the air by utilizing a tool that can work with you, instead of against you. Now, back to Harbor Freight. They frequently have refurbished (good as, and looks like new) DeWalt DW621 routers on sale at about $129 (free shipping). That's a remarkable deal for a great tool - DW621 . It is currently $159, but check back often as they put it onsale at $129 often.

                                                                To go with the router, I would tell you that getting a Jasper Jig is a great idea. Prices vary at different places, but not usually by much unless you catch them onsale. I bought mine at the local Woodcraft store when they had them on sale one month. I have the both the 200 and the 400 jigs, seen here . Unless you find a much better deal on the jasper jigs, and you decide to buy them, please consider using Parts Express advertising banner on the top of the page, and then doing a search on Jasper and purchasing this way. If you click through the link above, it does help to support HTGuide.com. We're lucky that the owners donate the use of this place for us to exchange such wonderful information. When the opportunity arises to purchase from Parts Express, remember the link! Okay... back to the topic at hand.

                                                                Router bits! There are many great places to purchase fine quality bits from many places. www.routerbitworld.com is one of them, and if you do a search on router bits here, you'll find many others like MLCS, etc. Good bit manufacturers would be Whiteside, CMT, Amana, Freud, Katana, Infinity, Jesada, and more. When possible, choose a 1/2" collet over a 1/4" collet bit, simply because it will be stronger under frictional heat, less likely to bend, etc. Generally, there is negligable if any cost difference between the two.

                                                                Always wear protection. I'm not talking about cover your stump before you hump, either. I'm talking about eye protection, and just as importantly - ear protection. Most power tools operate at high sound pressure levels, and sustained exposure will DAMAGE your hearing. Did you hear me? I said DAMAGE your hearing! :B How the heck can you fully enjoy the speakers you wanna build if you don't protect the ears you have? Okay, off the soap box now. Also, please wear a dust mask whenever you are cutting, sanding, or just generally stirring up the dust. Vaccuum it up as often as possible too. Keeping the air you are working in clean is not only more comfortable, but also a big health bonus. People truly underestimate the damage that sustained exposure to breathing in fine wood particles can have on their health. There are a lot of guys who have been doing woodworking as a hobby that have given themselves SERIOUS health problems because they did not know the dangers. You can read some testimony to this if you are interested at www.billpentz.com and probably other places if you search the web.

                                                                Clamps. I'm not fond of screws at all. I like glue and clamps, but that's the preference I have. Some guys really like to use screws. Whatever floats your boat. I will tell you that you can get some decent clamps that will more than do the job for you at (gasp) Harbor Freight. The aluminum bar clamps are good, the pipe clamps are good, as well are others.

                                                                Okay, I've run my pie hole enough. There are plenty of other people here, namely the poobahs, who are fare more knowledgable and experienced at this than I am. The greatness of this community is that people are more than willing to contribute their knowledge when and where they have it. If you have questions, just ask away.

                                                                :T

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Ten 99
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Apr 2004
                                                                  • 133

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Oh, it occurred to me that you might be wondering what you can work on (table to cut on, etc). Some 2x4's and some plans of the internet can help you construct some solid saw horses that can be broken down. Make two or four of them. Get a sheet of plywood to set across the saw horses to make a table. Then, place a sheet of insulation foam (comes in 4' x 8' sheet in white, pink, and baby blue colors at HD or Lowes) and lay this on top of the plywood. Next, lay the sheet good that you intend to cut on top of this foam board. This way you can set your saw to cut slightly deeper (1/4" or so) than the sheet thickness you are cutting. It can go through part of the foam, but not cut through all of the foam or the plywood bottom. This way you don't have to worry about the fall-away pieces and splintered cuts, etc. Works good for router work too. This is cheap and economical. If you don't have a truck, you might need to borrow a friend that has one for the initial purchase of some of the foam board and plywood underneath part.

                                                                  In the future, if you don't have a truck, you can purchase MDF in smaller sheets of 4'x4' and 2'x4' sheets at HD and Lowes. This way you can transport these in most cars.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Paul H
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Feb 2004
                                                                    • 904

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Good posts Chris - it's a bit of a coincidence but I'd even recommend the exact same models of tools you did - I have a DW 621 and will likely buy a PC circ saw when mine finally dies.

                                                                    I tend to use Lee Valley for router bits, as their quality is excellent and while I always buy very good tools, I Never go cheap on router bits - very bad things can happen if they break up while spinning at 25,000 rpm.

                                                                    Good safety advice too.

                                                                    Paul

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • SonicBooMan
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Jan 2005
                                                                      • 11

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Speakers' cabinet tools

                                                                      Hmmmmm...maybe this should be listed in a separate thread...it should be called: "A Beginner's Guide to Tools Required for Loudspeakers Construction for those who don't know what you're doing". maybe too long; how about "Loudspeakers Construction for Dummies?" LoL

                                                                      Thanks for the informative inputs, everyone.

                                                                      OK, so there are the tools the salesperson at Home Depot told me I need:
                                                                      1. Router (with bits); now I know I need a plunge, not just a regular one
                                                                      2. circular saw
                                                                      3. drill & bits & screws
                                                                      4. maybe a jig saw?
                                                                      5. glue
                                                                      7. saw horse

                                                                      Other tools I need?
                                                                      1. Jasper circle guides
                                                                      2. clamps
                                                                      3. wood screws, t-nuts, screws & nuts?

                                                                      What are some ways to mount the drivers to the baffle? T-nuts, woodscrews, through-hole with screw & nut, others?

                                                                      I called Jasper Audio to learn about the circular guides. He also recommends the Freud 2000E series router. Since I'm a novice at this, should I be getting expensive tools now? Or should I wait later until I've gained enough experience?

                                                                      Thanks.

                                                                      SonicBooMan

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Hank
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Jul 2002
                                                                        • 1345

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Good idea for a "sticky" for tools, adhesives, etc to use for building speaker cabinets.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15209

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I'll look into configuring one this weekend from this info, and invite more feedback.

                                                                          ~Jon
                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                          Natalie P
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                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Ten 99
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Apr 2004
                                                                            • 133

                                                                            #38
                                                                            HANK! Where have you been, old soul? Are they abusing you at work?

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • denverdoc
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Aug 2004
                                                                              • 66

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Ditto in support of making a tools of the trade sticky...in fact, can we have 2, one for the woodworking stuff and a second for the measurement stuff: PC based scopes/sound cards/mics/fx generators etc.
                                                                              John s

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Doug Fraser
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • Apr 2004
                                                                                • 62

                                                                                #40
                                                                                I have tried the link to linkwitzlab in Jons initial post since I first saw this thread and it doesn't seem to work. All I get is 404 Error, The requested URL /challenge.htm was not found on this server. I have also been to http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ and look arround for the challenge project.

                                                                                I understand that the guys here don't have control over what Siegfried does with his site but I though I would see if anyone else was having the same problem or am I just loosing it?

                                                                                Regards,
                                                                                Doug

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Hank
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jul 2002
                                                                                  • 1345

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Chris: good to see your posts! Yes, they're abusing me big time since giving me a major divison last June. Color me overwhelmed. Evening phone meetings with Asia countries, fire-fighting, $6.5MM savings goal for '05 in the face of escalating raw materials globally, etc. I wish I could make money building speakers, but that's fantasy. So, how's the law biz?

                                                                                  Denverdoc: good idea you have for a separate measurement equipment sticky - that would be very handy indeed!

                                                                                  Latest challenge: my computer was infected by a hijack virus, so I had to have it professionall scrubbed, then my son and his friend connected it to his friend's computer as a slave drive. I told my son to be sure and back up my files, just in case. Well, instead of backing up to media, they copied my drive to the other guy's hard drive before formatting my drive. Something went awry, and the other guy's hard drive was wiped out. He lost his contents and my speaker design files are gone, my sheet layout/cutting program and files are gone, LspCAD (which I bought several months ago and haven't used yet) is gone, by DVD profiler program is gone... :rf I think I'll call our Shanghai plant and ask if they need a couple of 18-year-old male employees :twisted:
                                                                                  I bought a new bottle of El Jimador tequila today and will apply it liberally tonight to my pain... :boozer:

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Dennis H
                                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                    • Aug 2002
                                                                                    • 3791

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    SL appears to have renamed the Orion challenge page.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 15209

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Hank, I feel your pain.... that's gotta really hurt. white slavery, huh?

                                                                                      Sounds like you're becoming a victim of your own success. Isn't that awful? It sounds familiar... I was on a "must do" conference call yesterday from midnight Thursday until 9 AM Friday, with our Villach group, re a product developmoent workshop (I could have gotten out of the conference call if I'd flown to Munich and driven there last week, but with everything else going on...), then my boss says, OK, you can go to sleep, but leave you mobile on in case I need you... which he did, twice, the last time about noon. And they were urgent issues, too. I'm just getting way burned out on this "urgent" business model of operations. Oh, I didn't mention that I came down with the flue a few days earlier in the week, and am still having sweats and chills...

                                                                                      Enjoy your El Jimador...



                                                                                      This is a really old thread, (originally started in July 2002), it's no wonder Linkwitz changed the link on his site by now... I was surprised to see this pop up again.

                                                                                      ~Jon
                                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                                      M8ta
                                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                                      Isiris
                                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                      SMJ
                                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                                      Calliope
                                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                                      In Development...
                                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • mante
                                                                                        Member
                                                                                        • Jul 2004
                                                                                        • 72

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Hank and Jon,

                                                                                        Is this a good time to mention that I'm half way through a year and a half off? Saved lunch money, said bye, and am enjoying my two young kids and wife. One the other hand, I'm not Freud, but, I kind of think both of you rather enjoy your schedules

                                                                                        Young Padawan

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15209

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          You know, I hear that from folks at times, they seem to think I enjoy being miserable at work? Being busy and needed is OK; weeks like the last one just don't cut it. If I didn't know it was also causing my boss a lot of gutache, I'd at least feel I could complain somewhere. But then, by our internal self assessment programs, they've probably decided we aren't working hard enough, anyway- afterall, neither myself nor my current boss are on ulcer medication, and my former boss and his primay direct report are...

                                                                                          A year an a half off? Let's see, how long would that take me to save up for- I usually have these Costco purchased Deli-Mex Terryaki Chicken bowls, a box of 6 costs less than $9, let's say I quit eating lunch six day a week, hmmmm, that's gonna take a while. I'm putting a lot aside in my 401K so I'm not an old bag guy in my retired years, and I participated in a deferred income program when they had one for folks at my level (now it's only senior directors and higher). But I still haven't been able to save enough up for a worthwhile housing downpayment here (yeah, I could buy one outright in Houston, pay cash), and my daughter and her mom are talking about her going to a private college her junior and senior year (let's not discuss the disconnect between current GPA and this schools requirements

                                                                                          In Europe our company has often had early retirement programs, pretty sweet deals for guys in their early to mid 50's. No such stuff here; there are two guys retiring next month from our group; both are 70. Couldn't afford it earlier. I've got 20 years in here. Got a while to go yet- would be 31 years if I retired at 65.

                                                                                          Mante, my hats off to you. :T
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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