Zaph's new ZA5

[JonMarsh]

so true- for example, a well done DIY design with parts cost of ~$1,000 will often compare well to commercial designs in the range of 5X to 10X, sometimes more. I recently had an opportunity to audition Kharma Mini Exquisites at length, and though they were better than the majority of speakers I heard at RMAF, the NeoD CC's give them a fairly stiff run for the money. The Kharma's are $45,000, with Accuton drivers. The Ardents should give them an even stiffer run, once they're complete.

My general feeling is that the Kharma's could have sounded better, but were probably hindered by the Carey 303/300 CD player in the system, which while considered a high performer by many reviewers at $4,000, is not the nearly the equal of a Berkeley Alpha DAC with a Cambridge Audio 640C as transport, at least not on a variety of recordings with which I'm fairly familiar. The owner of the Kharma's will be auditioning the Alpha DAC at home within a week.

[Licinius]

I absolutely agree, and looking at the Lsi9's - I'd bet Zaph's woofers are better, the Polk tweeter probably has the edge (looks like a sourced XT25 to me). So without hearing them, I'd say they are comparable at best, and the ZA would probably outperform in the midrange. Plus the ZA is $280ish+cabs, and the polks $1000.

All pure speculation, not having heard or measured the Polks - but for a fraction of their cost, I'm sure you can easily match or exceed their performance.

[---k---]

I agree with the above also. I've done the side-by-side comparisions with DIY and Paradigm, DynAudio, and Ascend Audio in my room. Won't get into that here. I think if you have the tools and the energy, DIY is a fun hobby that can save money. But, buying all the tools and future projects caused by the addiction usually makes DIY like any other hobby - a constant pit to sink $$ into.

BTW, I do think that the Chineese are re-writting the 5x the cost rule of thumb at some price points - especially for those who aren't into crystal clear, detailed sounds. But not all as Jon disucusses.

[Brian Kingsbury]

Damn those "Chineese"! Rules of thumb don't necesarily apply equally to all thumbs. Especially thumbs from other economic markets with large disparities in thumb exchange rates.

[schnottus]

Awesome, thank you all for the responses.
I definitely think I will have a go at making my own pair of zaph5.3 mtm speakers. Making them certainly interests me and I have plenty of tools so I'm sure it will be fun.

I've also heard that the Polk tweeter is a sourced Vifa xt25. I love the sound of the tweet in the Lsi speakers I currently own so I will talk to the guys at Madisound about upgrading my kit to those.

[Brian Kingsbury]

Talk to zaph (jkrutke) directly since he designed the kit and will be able to give better advice about wether switching to the XT25 is possible or even desirable.

[benchtester]

Awesome, thank you all for the responses.
I definitely think I will have a go at making my own pair of zaph5.3 mtm speakers. Making them certainly interests me and I have plenty of tools so I'm sure it will be fun.

I've also heard that the Polk tweeter is a sourced Vifa xt25. I love the sound of the tweet in the Lsi speakers I currently own so I will talk to the guys at Madisound about upgrading my kit to those.

If you simply swap tweeters, it won't sound right. The XT25 needs a few more components to prevent ringing at Fs (resonant freq.). Also the XT25 has a little lower sensitivity than the DQ25, so the resistors would have to be changed. These two points are only the beginning of the design considerations.

Changing the tweeter is a big design modification; which can be a very fun part of the hobby. But it probably should not be done without some experience and measuring equipment is really really helpful. I would recommend build at least two of the speakers exactly to the design. If you want to experiment after that, then you have some "correct" to compare them to. By the way, I suspect the DQ25 is pretty close to the XT25 and may well be a matter of individual preference (and application) as to which is "better".

With respect to Brain's post: You can learn a great deal from Zaph's site www.zaphaudio.com

Look at the ZD5 project for more information on using the XT25 tweeter.

However read this page before contacting Zaph:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/email.html

But more to the point, he discusses the ZA5 tweeter selection here (near the bottom - search on "DQ25" to get there):

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

Good luck and have fun.

[Bear]

so true- for example, a well done DIY design with parts cost of ~$1,000 will often compare well to commercial designs in the range of 5X to 10X, sometimes more. I recently had an opportunity to audition Kharma Mini Exquisites at length, and though they were better than the majority of speakers I heard at RMAF, the NeoD CC's give them a fairly stiff run for the money. The Kharma's are $45,000, with Accuton drivers. The Ardents should give them an even stiffer run, once they're complete.

:T I would definitely be curious about a discussion of "lessons learned" between the NeoD and Ardent, especially given the difference in cabinet build requirements between the two.

[evilskillit]

Diy can be a great savings, and a lot of fun, but if you don't like working with your hands and aren't good with tools, trying to make speakers to save a buck would probably not be a worth while experience.

I got into DIY speakers just to get nice speakers for a cheap price, however after buying a router, saw, sander, building the speakers and trying to finish them and all the time it took I don't know how much I really "saved" tho I know I don't have the finances to have bought a pair of speakers that sounds as nice as the ones I built.

I ended up enjoying it a lot, I also built myself some subs, now I want to build new mains. Since building my first speaker kicked off a new addiction I'm not sure how much it will "save" me in the long run but I'm enjoying it so much I no longer care.

[JonP]

Hehe... you nailed it Skillet...

I'm by far not one of the most productive people around here, but still have spent a surprising amount of money on tools and etc... But, you have to look at it as a hobby and an enjoyment, or yes, you aren't really saving money.

I remember a website some guy had, basically a detailed build of I forget which speaker design... somewhere in there he had a statement like "...save hundreds and hundreds of dollars bulding your own speakers by buying thousands and thousands of dollars of woodworking tools??? I'm IN!!!!!" :B

If you're having fun, at whatever level... it's money well spent, rather than "did I save money on that?"....

[JonMarsh]

:T I would definitely be curious about a discussion of "lessons learned" between the NeoD and Ardent, especially given the difference in cabinet build requirements between the two.

Since I'm still learning the lessons, it would be a bit premature to comment... in some regards, the NeoD layout is easier to work with, having aspects of a WMTMW in the midrange beheavior. Fortunately the NeoD crossover is not so complicated. OTOH, I can't complain so far- the modeled and measured behavior in the Ardent is correlating well, including, though, the need for the bass zobel.

There are times I'm still thinking a slightly upgraded NeoD project would be an interesting build- same woofers as ardent, maybe a skosh wider front panel and a new tweeter, possibly a small form factor SS. Of course, that would be a full-on custom cabinet, not modified PE. Beefed up front panel, of course. I'd been considering doing that with the Jantzen woofers I have on hand, but why use something that eccentric if others were going to build it...

[Doug Fraser]

Jon

I would very interested in an updated NeoD. Custom cabinet is OK.

I like the smaller form factor the NeoD's have (not required to be floor standing) and can be mounted vertically or horizontally.

Would love to compare to my NeoD build.

Also would like to hear you comments comparing the NeoD's to the Ardents (when they are finished).

Doug

[kravi4ka]

Jon

I would very interested in an updated NeoD. Custom cabinet is OK.

I like the smaller form factor the NeoD's have (not required to be floor standing) and can be mounted vertically or horizontally.

Would love to compare to my NeoD build.

Also would like to hear you comments comparing the NeoD's to the Ardents (when they are finished).

Doug

Me too!

[ific]

Jon

I would very interested in an updated NeoD. Custom cabinet is OK.

I like the smaller form factor the NeoD's have (not required to be floor standing) and can be mounted vertically or horizontally.

Would love to compare to my NeoD build.

Also would like to hear you comments comparing the NeoD's to the Ardents (when they are finished).

Doug

Me too! ;x(

[JonMarsh]

OK guys, the message is clear!

Just for the record, my thinking is towards the SS D2004/6020-00 3/4" tweeter (love it's 20 kHz off axis performance) on the top end, and of course, the ER18RNX on the bottom end. Midrange unchanged. Crossover concept will stay as similar as possible, especially for the midrange, though the differences in midwoofer and tweeter response will require some updates, likely with some component upgrades, too, if the Clarity ESA caps pan out- I hope the midrange element will be nearly identical.

I'll probably steal Evil Twin's front panel concepts for his new project, the Nascent.

Uh oh, you didn't hear about that from me... :E

[Ray Collins]

I am in as well; I need a new project...

Ray

[schnottus]

Just thought I'd say thanks to everyone for the advice, made a set of zaph5.3 MTM's and they sound great. Didn't save too much money though, came to a little over 400 after the kit, MDF, and paint. Although I spent 80 to get some good gloss black auto paint when I could have gotten by cheaper.

Images not available

It's just automotive primer on them right now, I plan on putting gloss black on them and polishing to a mirror finish.

On a side note, careful with wrenches when installing tweeters:

Image not available

Luckily I live in Madison so a trip to Madisound for a new tweeter isn't too much trouble.

[benchtester]

Luckily I live in Madison so a trip to Madisound for a new tweeter isn't too much trouble.

Perhaps "isn't too much trouble" = "it's a great excuse to go to Madisound again"? :lol:

[schnottus]

Perhaps "isn't too much trouble" = "it's a great excuse to go to Madisound again"? :lol:

Hehe, while I do immensely enjoy spending my money on speakers they don't really have a physical storefront where you can check everything out, you just go there and pick up your order. Would be kind of nice if they did have some stuff on display.

[benchtester]

Hehe, while I do immensely enjoy spending my money on speakers they don't really have a physical storefront where you can check everything out, you just go there and pick up your order. Would be kind of nice if they did have some stuff on display.

That is too bad. I had this image in my mind of aisles of parts and drivers. Years ago we had a store (22 miles from my house) that had a lot of high end speaker parts (in a few counter displays). For better or worse, it closed a month before I got a job around the corner from it. I wish it was still there, but I am sure my budget is better off with it closed. I recently visited Speaker City in Burbank. They had some stuff out, and a listening room!

BTW: Looks like you have a great set of speakers there!

[kravi4ka]

At the time I was living in LA SpeakerCity was a small shop that was full of boxes and a few not that well made speakers, has it changed since then? They had a lot of stuff though and were always very friendly. The aisles of parts and drivers are in Germany btw, probably just like you imagine them

[fjhuerta]

This sounds like a project I could be interested in

I'd say that project is far away in the future . I can't afford to build another big speaker this year.

Nevertheless, my wife did look the other way for long enough, and I was able to buy the ZA5.2 kit. I'm planning on building something like the Totem Arro - a sleek column. I'm pretty sure it's going to kick some butt.

I'd actually love to compare it to the original RB-1s I built, which may be the speakers I listen to the most (because they are at the office).

[benchtester]

At the time I was living in LA SpeakerCity was a small shop that was full of boxes and a few not that well made speakers, has it changed since then? They had a lot of stuff though and were always very friendly. The aisles of parts and drivers are in Germany btw, probably just like you imagine them

I think it is pretty much the same ... especially the friendliness. The speakers in the sound room sounded pretty good, and didn't look bad either. Probably the speakers are getting better as they accumulate; as with all of us.

[jnporter]

Hello. I'm new to site. Awesome DIY site, for sure.

Anyway, I have my eye on building the Zaph 5.3 MTM and 5.3C center and I wondered if these things will get loud enough (90wpc receiver) in a good-sized room around 20 x 20 feet. It needs to be able to go at least to 85-90 db at the listening position (12-15 ft from the speaker position. I can't seem to figure this out from the graphs on the Zaph site. Thanks for any insight here.

jnporter

[Dean100]

Hello. I'm new to site. Awesome DIY site, for sure.

Anyway, I have my eye on building the Zaph 5.3 MTM and 5.3C center and I wondered if these things will get loud enough (90wpc receiver) in a good-sized room around 20 x 20 feet. It needs to be able to go at least to 85-90 db at the listening position (12-15 ft from the speaker position. I can't seem to figure this out from the graphs on the Zaph site. Thanks for any insight here.

jnporter

Will you be crossing these over to a sub? Welcome to htguide!

[jkrutke]

Anyway, I have my eye on building the Zaph 5.3 MTM and 5.3C center and I wondered if these things will get loud enough (90wpc receiver) in a good-sized room around 20 x 20 feet. It needs to be able to go at least to 85-90 db at the listening position (12-15 ft from the speaker position. I can't seem to figure this out from the graphs on the Zaph site.

That's not a very demanding level and they will probably reach that even run full range without a subwoofer crossover.

I had an email from a guy who wanted 125 dB from the ZA5.2. He never did clarify if he meant peaks or average music power, and never gave me the room size. Even with a sub, the system was going to audibly complain big time. With the sub crossed high enough the tweeter will complain first. I recommended the waveguide TMM with a 100 Hz highpass, heavy gauge inductors, all high power poly caps and two 15" subs.

[benchtester]

Hello. I'm new to site. Awesome DIY site, for sure.

Anyway, I have my eye on building the Zaph 5.3 MTM and 5.3C center and I wondered if these things will get loud enough (90wpc receiver) in a good-sized room around 20 x 20 feet. It needs to be able to go at least to 85-90 db at the listening position (12-15 ft from the speaker position. I can't seem to figure this out from the graphs on the Zaph site. Thanks for any insight here.

jnporter

Zaph has answered your question. However, I will try to explain how you can make a crude estimate to arrive at his answer. (I personally find the estimating the fun part; and the perfectionists enjoy telling me where I have over simplified things.)

You are asking for 85-90 db at listening position. Coincidentally his speakers have a sensitivity of 87 to 88 dB / watt (often defined as 2.83 volts RMS) at one meter (3+ feet). Going to 12 feet is a 4 times increase; the dB drop as a square so they will be down 12 dB's (6 dB per doubling of distance) for one watt. However, to maintain 87.5 db at listening distance, this would be a 16 times increase in power (4x power per doubling of distance). So the bottom line is one speaker can generate 87.5 dB at the listening position with 16 watts, theoretically.

Now for reality (which isn't that bad), the room will probably lessen the power requirement some, since there will be some reflections off the walls and perhaps some "room loading" of the bass especially if you can close the doors. If the left, right and center channels are being utilized, you pick up 6 to 9 dB depending on the content sharing.

The accurate answer is hard to calculate; the simple answer is you are good. Zaph said that you would be okay even without a subwoofer filter (high pass to limit the low frequency to the ZA5 speaker); probably because with all the conditions you specify the speakers probably won't bottom out (even vented). But if you have the opportunity, and I suspect that your receiver can do this, set the receiver to roll off the speakers (set to ~medium speakers) and run a sub woofer. You will get the "slam" of the bass drums and HT effects; and the midrange may be cleaner.

[jnporter]

Thanks for the great answers, y'all. Wow, a personal response from the designer! Thanks, John. Your answer gave me confidence.

And to benchtester ; the info you kindly gave me for calculating this problem was very much appreciated. Sometimes the learning curve seems pretty overwhelming around DIY audio issues.

Dean 100 : Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I'll be crossing to a sub. The full system, (which BTW is a Christmas gift for some dear friends and needs to be right from the get-go.) is Zaph 5.3 at FL/FR, Zaph 5.3C at center and Madisound Recession Buster 2 sealed at SL/SR. I have not yet decided on a sub design, but probably a single sealed 12" or 15" to keep the box as small as possible.

Thanks again for the replies.

Jim Porter

[Jinjuku]

I would only consider DiY if making your own speakers interests you, not because you're saving money versus a commercial offering.

Although I'm sure the ZA5.3t's sound great

To each their own... DIY in my mind is getting more of something for less $$ with the trade off being your time.

It's not good, it's not bad. There are a ton of reasons for DIY that may not line up with why you DIY. Your reasons are no more relevant or not than the poster asking about the comparison to the LSi9's

[DeathMonk]

I agree. There is just so much more to building speakers (cost of tools, time involved, etc) rather than buying - which others after me explained in detail.

It's good to know what you're getting into before you jump.