Starting over.....selecting a new speaker project

[bemis23]

Here are the critical details:

Source material: 50/50 HT/Music - music genres: rock, blues, funk, jazz,
Room size: 15'x21'
Distance to listening position from back wall: 14' (possibly less if I move the couch out)
SAF: Moderate - she agreed to let me build some towers, but something as large as full size Statements is completely out of the question
Budget: $600-800 per pair for electronics (flexible, but not much)
Other constraints:
1) Due to my extensive HT & gaming use I would like to integrate a pair of bass-bins into the bottom of whatever tower selected such that I could powerfully reproduce bass frequencies in the low to mid 20's*
2) Off axis response is important due to room layout
3) Desired SPL levels: ~104-110dB at Peak

*Other subwoofer options are limited due to placement issues (it would be forced into an alcove - yuck!) and SAF issues - also this does not mean that I want to rattle my neighbors windows I just want the full frequency range presented

Thus far the designs I've considered are:

ZDT3.5 first design I picked and still seems to be an excellent choice
Mini-statements - ruled out due to back wall spacing
Clearwave 1S seems like an excellent choice
Clearwave 2T - ruled out, due to bassbin/size constraints
Clearwave RBR - these aren't completely ruled out, but i dont expect any to be available by the time I start building
Madisound Fountek kit ????
Marcatos a touch pricey, but oustanding performance

Edit: Updated list - designs in bold are still being considered

[Rolex]

What about something like Jed's new recession buster reference from madisound? (the sealed version) 400 bucks for the set, then maybe some dayton subs on the bottom end? That should fit your price range.

[Hdale85]

The Dynamic 2T's of Jed's might squeeze into that price. I have the 4T's and they are fantastic! I love the W4-1337SA mids. Jed's madisound design should easily be amazing as well and the cost is a steal as those would normally cost 600-700 pretty easily! They would certainly be candidates for bass bins, something like the 2T's or even mini statments it would be hard to get bassbins under. The 2T's play quite low though as I'm sure the Mini Statements do as well seeing as they use the same woofers.

[bemis23]

These are all great suggestions. Jed sent me a PM and suggested that I look at his Dynamic 1S. I'm not sure about the RBR kit, mostly because by the time I can afford the drivers I doubt there will be any left!

Keep 'em coming!

[Hdale85]

Yes the 1S could work nice as well. I can highly recommend Jed's designs I've built 2 of them so far

[HareBrained]

Zaph is designing a TM, MTM and MMTMM with his new driver and the Vifa DQ25. Sensitivity and power handling of the ZA14 says the MTM actively crossed at 80-100Hz would support your SPL objective. Both drivers are incredible values. Don't let their inexpensive price make you think they're not worthy of consideration. And Zaph is too much of a perfectionist to not have them be worth building.

Another option would be the Fountek Kits (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/ind...?cPath=35_420). These were talked up quite a bit by Zaph in another thread. The FW168 is very low distortion and the ribbon tweeter is sweet. Max SPL would be ~105db.

BTW, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on any of Jed's designs. The Dynamic 2T is a great value. His Lineup Maxx would also be an option but it's actually a little more expensive than the 2T. You could also build the Lineup or the the top half of the Lineup Maxx, and incorporate your own bassbins.

I think whatever you decide to spend on the top-half of the speakers will end up determining what the bassbin is going to be. Good luck with that because it's difficult to do a pair cheaply. You may want to look at what it's going to cost for your minimum acceptable set.

[bemis23]

Zaph is designing a TM, MTM and MMTMM with his new driver and the Vifa DQ25. Sensitivity and power handling of the ZA14 says the MTM actively crossed at 80-100Hz would support your SPL objective. Both drivers are incredible values. Don't let their inexpensive price make you think they're not worthy of consideration. And Zaph is too much of a perfectionist to not have them be worth building.

Another option would be the Fountek Kits (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/ind...?cPath=35_420). These were talked up quite a bit by Zaph in another thread. The FW168 is very low distortion and the ribbon tweeter is sweet. Max SPL would be ~105db.

BTW, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on any of Jed's designs. The Dynamic 2T is a great value. His Lineup Maxx would also be an option but it's actually a little more expensive than the 2T. You could also build the Lineup or the the top half of the Lineup Maxx, and incorporate your own bassbins.

I think whatever you decide to spend on the top-half of the speakers will end up determining what the bassbin is going to be. Good luck with that because it's difficult to do a pair cheaply. You may want to look at what it's going to cost for your minimum acceptable set.

Well, like the government says: budgets are made to be broken

I was playing around tonight with modeling an RSS390 in a 67L box. The modeled response came out about right (F3 at ~33hz), and depending on the box shape would make a great mate to the bottom of a main speaker like some of Zaph's new designs, the Statement Monitors, et al. The chances are good I won't be looking at building anything until a few of his new designs have been built anyway, so more options are obviously available. Two of the 390s will run me about $400, so this option would leave me about ~$500-600/pr for mains assuming i conveniently forget to mention to the wife that I'll need a new amp

AFAIC the cost for MDF is negligible (since I'll have a bunch already) and a suitable amp shouldn't be too hard to find relatively inexpensively (e.g. Behringer 1500/2000/2500).

Of course now that it's late and I've had a couple beers I'm just about ready to whip out a credit card and worry about it later....clearly it is time for bed if I wish to remain married!

[bemis23]

I've realized that the Statement line may have a bit of a problem in my application - I'm very limited with the amount of space I can get between the back of the speaker and the back wall. I MIGHT be able to get as much as 6" from the back wall, but 4" is more likely. I suppose this is going to limit my selection to something with fairly low BSC and likely no rear port.

[dlneubec]

You might consider the Marcatos. They are a tower MTM using the Usher 8945P woofer and the B&G Neo3PDRW tweeter. They are in a transmission line cabinet (ML-TL) with F3 around 31hz as designed but could be adapted to a sealed box of a consideably smaller size to adapt to work with a bass bin for that low 20's performance. They are designed and voiced to sit with the back of the speaker about 6" from the wall or so, are 10" wide, 12.5" deep and 45" tall in the ML-TL configuration. I believe the cost of drivers and crossover parts is around $660 or so for the pair.

They were shown at the InDIYana event in April and in the view of many of the participants, were preferred over the Salk HT2's which Jim had brought to the event (both are MTM's with transmission line cabinets).

You can download a write-up that Paul Kittinger put together here. I did the crossover design for him on these.
The Marcato Writeup.pdf

[Jim Holtz]

I've realized that the Statement line may have a bit of a problem in my application - I'm very limited with the amount of space I can get between the back of the speaker and the back wall. I MIGHT be able to get as much as 6" from the back wall, but 4" is more likely. I suppose this is going to limit my selection to something with fairly low BSC and likely no rear port.

That is a show stopper for any Statements designs.

Jim

[bemis23]

That is a show stopper for any Statements designs.

Jim

Yeah I figured this would be the case.

Those Marcatos look nice, but the measured response seems to roll off ~300hz and is down about 9dB by 80 hz - but my ideal active crossover point for the bassbins is ~60 to reduce LF localization as much as possible. Will this mate well with those massive 15" woofers? I'm not sure the subs can reach high enough to sum flat without a fairly significant valley in the lower midbass.

As an aside I'm partial to three-way systems (although I will not rule out solid two away designs like the Marcatos, provided they can reach low enough) just from my own personal experience with the commercial systems I've owned in the past.

Am I being picky enough yet?

[Jed]

~$500-600/pr for mains assuming i conveniently forget to mention to the wife that I'll need a new amp

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything that will outperform the RBR at under $700 and it's only $399. That will leave you with a little more money left over for the amplifier. Plus, it would look pretty slick if you have the sealed RBR sitting on top the bass bins.

Another option, as other mentioned, is the 1S or M2/M5. I have the files for adjusting the BSC for those speakers.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not making a commission on the sales of the RBR. The price/performance ratio of that speaker is just hard to surpass by anything on the market including my own speakers.

[bemis23]

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything that will outperform the RBR at under $700 and it's only $399. That will leave you with a little more money left over for the amplifier. Plus, it would look pretty slick if you have the sealed RBR sitting on top the bass bins.

Another option, as other mentioned, is the 1S or M2/M5. I have the files for adjusting the BSC for those speakers.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not making a commission on the sales of the RBR. The price/performance ratio of that speaker is just hard to surpass by anything on the market including my own speakers.

I tried to talk my wife into letting me pick up a kit last night, but with our puppy getting surgery this morning the fun money has dried up for this month, and she reminded me I still need to purchase a table saw.

[Hdale85]

Tell her the table saw will always be around but the RBR kits are limited Sorry to hear about the pup though.

[dlneubec]

Yeah I figured this would be the case.

Those Marcatos look nice, but the measured response seems to roll off ~300hz and is down about 9dB by 80 hz - but my ideal active crossover point for the bassbins is ~60 to reduce LF localization as much as possible. Will this mate well with those massive 15" woofers? I'm not sure the subs can reach high enough to sum flat without a fairly significant valley in the lower midbass.

As an aside I'm partial to three-way systems (although I will not rule out solid two away designs like the Marcatos, provided they can reach low enough) just from my own personal experience with the commercial systems I've owned in the past.

Am I being picky enough yet?

Those measurments are with a short gated window and don't reflect the low end performance, which is excellent. If you look at the link I posted Paul includes a graph of the performance in the TL. A gated measurement naturally shows a roll off like that with any speaker. The Usher 8945P is pretty flat down to the mid 30's or so. If you wanted to go sealed they could easily be crossed to subs at 60hz and give you up to 110db without exceeding excursion limits. Here is a model of them in a 30 liter sealed box, with a 60hz BW2 highpass on them (assuming a highpass from something like an HT receiver).

[dlneubec]

I'm pretty sure you won't find anything that will outperform the RBR at under $700 and it's only $399. That will leave you with a little more money left over for the amplifier. Plus, it would look pretty slick if you have the sealed RBR sitting on top the bass bins.

Another option, as other mentioned, is the 1S or M2/M5. I have the files for adjusting the BSC for those speakers.

Just in case anyone is wondering, I'm not making a commission on the sales of the RBR. The price/performance ratio of that speaker is just hard to surpass by anything on the market including my own speakers.

Jed,

I haven't heard the RBR, but I have a similar speaker in the Duo-S which uses a scan 5.5 mid and Vifa D26NC55 tweeter. IMO, the Marcatos are a serious performance step up. As I said before, most attendees thought they were better than the Salk HT2 TL's that sell for $4000/pair and use a pair of Seas Excel W18's and a high end LCY ribbon tweeter.

Salk HT2-TL

[bemis23]

I figured I must not be reading the graph right. Those do look like they would definently fit the bit for what I'm looking at given the information presented thus far. I've updated my list in the first post and added these to the list.

Oh and as far as the pup goes: he's doing ok now (just got out of surgery about an hour ago). He had a small growth/cyst in his mouth that we had removed today. Vet doesn't think it'll turn out to be anything other than a "puppy wart" but they're sending it out to lab just in case. I'm sure he'll be back to playing, eating, and pooping all over my yard again by tomorrow!

[Jed]

Jed,

I haven't heard the RBR, but I have a similar speaker in the Duo-S which uses a scan 5.5 mid and Vifa D26NC55 tweeter. IMO, the Marcatos are a serious performance step up. As I said before, most attendees thought they were better than the Salk HT2 TL's that sell for $4000/pair and use a pair of Seas Excel W18's and a high end LCY ribbon tweeter.

Salk HT2-TL

My comparison of value is based purely on the objective data and measurements of the sum of the parts. And of course listening impressions to make sure that performance is extracted by a properly designed crossover. Normally, it's pretty hard to get a Scan Speak woofer in a 2 way for much less than $700 (just drivers and crossovers).

The RBR doesn't use a Vifa D26 or the same woofer, so the correlation you made doesn't really hold up in the logic. I'm sure your Marcatos is around $700-750 (if using Clarity Caps and the same quality crossover components as the RBR), no? The RBR is $399.

A fair price comparison would be my Performance Series M2 kit, which sells for $335 and includes the SB Acoustics 5" driver, a Vifa XT25 double magnet tweeter, and crossovers. For an additional $64 you get the Scan Speak in the RBR and more expensive caps (whether that matters to you is a personal preference). The SB29 and XT25 are pretty close performers. That should put it in perspective.

On a side, yet rather important note, were the Salk speakers competing in the same room/front end system as your speaker? Just wondering.

[Paul K.]

As Dan mentioned down further, the response graph you're referring to doesn't show the real response of the system at low frequencies. I'll attach the system response from my modeling the ML-TL in the design phase. This will be an idealized anechoic response, of course, but it does show the response to be flat to about 40 Hz with an F3 of 31-31 Hz. Whether or not you like the Marcatos, or a sealed version, is up to you and what you need.

Those Marcatos look nice, but the measured response seems to roll off ~300hz and is down about 9dB by 80 hz - but my ideal active crossover point for the bassbins is ~60 to reduce LF localization as much as possible. Will this mate well with those massive 15" woofers? I'm not sure the subs can reach high enough to sum flat without a fairly significant valley in the lower midbass.

As an aside I'm partial to three-way systems (although I will not rule out solid two away designs like the Marcatos, provided they can reach low enough) just from my own personal experience with the commercial systems I've owned in the past.

Am I being picky enough yet?

[augerpro]

I'd be curious where specifically the Mercato's outshined the Salk speaker.

[bemis23]

Well, while the experts battle it out for the best performing top end I worked out some measurements on box dimensions for the RSS390.

I modeled the enclosure with a target of 2.25 cu ft, based on the performance model I developed in WinISD last night. The design I managed to come up with is a hexagon with a widened base.

It's 22.5" tall, 10" wide and the top, slopes out to 17.5" wide at 10" below the top, and is rectangular for the remaining 12.5" (all internal measurements) and is made to mate to a top-end that is 11" deep (designed around the Marcatos).

I think this design will give me the bassbin I need and I can make minor adjustments to the dimensions to mate to any top-end I want.

[Hdale85]

A hexagon? Hmm that'll be a pain Good luck!

[brianpowers27]

On a side, yet rather important note, were the Salk speakers competing in the same room/front end system as your speaker? Just wondering.

Yes, they were both auditioned in the same room. Paul brought these in to the DIY event Wolf and I hosted in April (InDIYana).

I can't say for sure which speaker would win but they are close enough that one does have to take Paul's design seriously. I would like to do a shootout between these two speakers again someday...

I will casually state my bias towards 3-ways + subs (4way?). I can't speak on behalf of the other 3 ways mentioned in this thread.

[dlneubec]

My comparison of value is based purely on the objective data and measurements of the sum of the parts. And of course listening impressions to make sure that performance is extracted by a properly designed crossover. Normally, it's pretty hard to get a Scan Speak woofer in a 2 way for much less than $700 (just drivers and crossovers).

The RBR doesn't use a Vifa D26 or the same woofer, so the correlation you made doesn't really hold up in the logic. I'm sure your Marcatos is around $700-750 (if using Clarity Caps and the same quality crossover components as the RBR), no? The RBR is $399.

A fair price comparison would be my Performance Series M2 kit, which sells for $335 and includes the SB Acoustics 5" driver, a Vifa XT25 double magnet tweeter, and crossovers. For an additional $64 you get the Scan Speak in the RBR and more expensive caps (whether that matters to you is a personal preference). The SB29 and XT25 are pretty close performers. That should put it in perspective.

On a side, yet rather important note, were the Salk speakers competing in the same room/front end system as your speaker? Just wondering.

Yes, they were in the same room with the same equipment. Geez Jed, you really have no qualms about pushing your semi commercial designs and kits on a DIY forum do you.

As far as comparisons go, since you brought it up, if you don't think the Duo-S is up to snuff for comapring with the RBR, perhaps we should look at the indpendent judges scores from Dayton last year where the Duo-S (speaker SP20, about $600 in parts/pair) competed head to head with your Aria 10S (then called the Tombstones, I believe, speaker SP twenty-eight) which you package for over $2500 in parts (over $600 in xover parts alone!).
Dayton 2008 0ver $200 results

Yup, the Duo-S did come in third to the Aria 10S's second place, by 6 points, 206 to 212, with a total score in the sound only categories of 122 versus 125. I believe the average judges score was 8.24 to 8.48 (out of 10). Yes, I used all Dayton caps, Jantzen inductors and Mills resistors, nothing fancy. I'd say that makes Duo-S a tremendous value with its 2 driver, 2way design, versus your 4 driver, 3way design that costs 4 times the Duo-S.

Perhaps that puts it in perspective.

Based on that judging, if the Duo-S is not comparable to your RBR, then the RBR must be considerably better than one of your top of the line, reference series offerings. If its better than the Aria 10S, I guess the RBR is a tremendous value.

[ThomasW]

Keep it civil gentleman......

[dlneubec]

Keep it civil gentleman......

Will do, ThomasW. :T

[Jed]

I did the RBR design for free and make nothing on the sales. It's a fully documented DIY design with a posted non-proprietary crossover. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program.

I enjoyed your Duo design very much by the way ( at Dayton). I'm not surprised it did well, and I give it the thumbs up as a recommendation within the OP's budget.

2 years ago, at Dayton, the judges didn't judge my Aria 10s because it didn't exist yet, so it definitely wasn't entered. I was 2 points away from the winner with the original Seas Excel version (called the Tombstones), and I feel the current version with Scan Speak mids and tweeters is even better. For the record. It was good fun meeting you all.

There's a fine line here from what might appear to be pushing designs versus making humble recommendations, and I apologize in advance if it appeared as if I was pushing any ethical boundaries in that regard. It wasn't my intent. You may not have been aware that I make no profits from RBR sales.

Regards,

Jed

[Hdale85]

I would imagine that the RBR with a bass bin could be better then a lot of stuff simply because it uses one of the best midranges out there. That's not to say other things couldn't beat it but when you have the price at 399 it's an amazing bargain and would be hard to find much at that price that could come close which I think is what he was trying to say. Not saying the other designs aren't good but even so they are still 200+ more. All of the designs mentioned in this thread are fantastic I don't doubt one bit.

[Jed]

I would imagine that the RBR with a bass bin could be better then a lot of stuff simply because it uses one of the best midranges out there. That's not to say other things couldn't beat it but when you have the price at 399 it's an amazing bargain and would be hard to find much at that price that could come close which I think is what he was trying to say. Not saying the other designs aren't good but even so they are still 200+ more. All of the designs mentioned in this thread are fantastic I don't doubt one bit.

Exactly what I was trying to say. :T +1

[PoorboyMike]

For what its worth, I'm currently using D44s sitting on top of 12" bass bins and I can't imagine something sounding too much better for their intended use in my room. I'm not saying there isn't better speakers available, but I think any improvements would be small and expensive.

[Jed]

For what its worth, I'm currently using D44s sitting on top of 12" bass bins and I can't imagine something sounding too much better for their intended use in my room. I'm not saying there isn't better speakers available, but I think any improvements would be small and expensive.

Well put Mike and thank you for the compliments on the D44s! One of the most difficult things I struggle with from a price to performance standpoint is how costly those small incremental improvements can be. Some are really wanting and able to pay a fair amount of money to get to that point. In the end the music is what matters in your listening room. However, if there is a cheaper way to match it in all areas, the quest continues. Unfortunately, the higher end drivers with low harmonic distortion and linear frequency responses are pretty hard to beat. One might get 95 or even 98% there though.

Take for example the SB Acoustics 5" driver. It has really good performance in the midrange and upper mids. The 15W Scan Speak, while 4 times the price... has lower harmonic distortion of all types right down to 20hz and almost no high order stuff from 1-5k. It's also more linear in its frequency response. So the bass is cleaner and tighter with the Scans, and the top end is a touch cleaner. But the question still is the extra $150 worth it for that added performance? Some say it is. However, when that price of the Scan Speak is slashed down to a SBA price... it's pretty hard to ignore. Every now and then Madisound has the 15W or 18W go on sale for half price-- they sell out in less than 2 days.

Jed

[bemis23]

Unfortunately the talk of using the RBR is kind of a moot point. While I'd really love to (I did try last night) I just can't choke up the $$$ for any of this until October- November. Does anyone really think a deal like that is going to last for three months?

Thus far the clearest options I see are the ZDT3.5, Clearwave 1S, and Marcatos. Here are my perceived pros and cons:

ZDT Pros:
Lots of build threads to reference
Cheaper than the other designs
Matching center channel designed
ZDT Cons:
Ability to reach desired SPL?

1S Pros:
Jed's proven design and support
Matching center channel
Reduced BSC design available
1S Cons:
A little bit more expensive

Marcatos Pros:
Superb performance
Definitely capable of SPL
Marcatos Cons:
Matching center channel?
More expensive than other designs

If anyone cares to comment, correct or fill in any blanks for me I'd appreciate it.

[Paul K.]

Hoping to not be perceived as tooting my own horn, I just want to add my comments on comparing the Marcatos to the HT2 TLs as they were played back-to-back at InDIYana. I thought the bass on the Marcatos was less boomy than that on the HT2 TLs, BUT, Jim played the HT2s a bunch louder than I played the Marcatos and that simply may have excited room resonances more. That said, the HT2s can be played really loud and cleanly and I was very much impressed with their performance. Frankly, as far as bass quality goes, I fully expected the Marcatos and HT2s to sound very similar owing to them both being ML-TLs and having the same F3. For the record, drivers and crossover parts listed for $617 for the pair; I used good-quality components, air-core inductors, polypropylene caps and Mills resistors, but not uber-expensive parts.

Unfortunately the talk of using the RBR is kind of a moot point. While I'd really love to (I did try last night) I just can't choke up the $$$ for any of this until October- November. Does anyone really think a deal like that is going to last for three months?

Thus far the clearest options I see are the ZDT3.5, Clearwave 1S, and Marcatos. Here are my perceived pros and cons:

ZDT Pros:
Lots of build threads to reference
Cheaper than the other designs
Matching center channel designed
ZDT Cons:
Ability to reach desired SPL?

1S Pros:
Jed's proven design and support
Matching center channel
Reduced BSC design available
1S Cons:
A little bit more expensive

Marcatos Pros:
Superb performance
Definitely capable of SPL
Marcatos Cons:
Matching center channel?
More expensive than other designs

If anyone cares to comment, correct or fill in any blanks for me I'd appreciate it.

[bemis23]

Something I just noticed. Jed's 2T towers are an 8-ohm nominal impedance. This is a gigantic, humongous plus for me because my current HT receiver is fairly budget oriented and can't handle a 4-ohm load stable. I'll be discussing some options with Jed for a bit (2T towers are too tall to use with the bassbins i think i want, but the 1S is a 4-ohm design) - but if it's possible to obtain an 8-ohm design so that I'm not immediately required to upgrade my electronics that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back on this debate.

[augerpro]

So three people here heard the HT2 side by side with the Marcato's and no one can give a more detailed impression, aside from bass? Come on let's hear it!

[---k---]

Well, seeing as how everyone is pimping their own stuff, I think the OP should be the first to build the In-Khan-Neatos as a pair of Out-Khan-Neatos. ~$400 a pair for a solid 3-way bookshelf speaker. Should have plenty of SPL capability. It has a matching center channel design. Is a 3-way with sufficient bass that you probably only need to cross it to a sub, no bass bins. Absolutely no cons! Hum, sounds perfect to me,

Actually, you would be the first (as far as I know of) to build the non-in-wall design. That might be a turn off, which I would understand. I'm more posting the In-Khan-Design as a joke. But, I am really really happy with the way mine turned out. They are definitely good enough to use as mains. I would image that would hold up for the stand mounted version.

All the the designs you are considering are very good. But, they are different, so it is hard to compare them directly - and different people like different things in a speaker. Some like detail, some like dynamic range. With a limited budget, you might not get both. Likely you'll be happy with any of them. In my opinion, you can over think this easily. Just build the least expensive ones, enjoy them. Then in a couple of years, sell & upgrade. You'll have a better idea of what you like, what, and need then.

[Hdale85]

Something I just noticed. Jed's 2T towers are an 8-ohm nominal impedance. This is a gigantic, humongous plus for me because my current HT receiver is fairly budget oriented and can't handle a 4-ohm load stable. I'll be discussing some options with Jed for a bit (2T towers are too tall to use with the bassbins i think i want, but the 1S is a 4-ohm design) - but if it's possible to obtain an 8-ohm design so that I'm not immediately required to upgrade my electronics that may be the straw that breaks the camel's back on this debate.

Honestly with the 2T's you may not feel a need for a sub right away. The Dynamic towers really have quite a bit of bass extension. My 4T's are a bit larger and do go a bit deeper then the tower Jed has laid out on the site. The 2T's shouldn't perform much less really. Eventually I do plan on adding a sub when I finally get a chance to complete the HT setup but especially for music it's amazing how much low end output from these speakers I get. They rumble my room quite good on some movies. Just a thought But this would give you time to think about where you might be able to fit a sub and what not. The 1S's would be fantastic as well though with bass bins.

[bemis23]

Well, seeing as how everyone is pimping their own stuff, I think the OP should be the first to build the In-Khan-Neatos as a pair of Out-Khan-Neatos. ~$400 a pair for a solid 3-way bookshelf speaker. Should have plenty of SPL capability. It has a matching center channel design. Is a 3-way with sufficient bass that you probably only need to cross it to a sub, no bass bins. Absolutely no cons! Hum, sounds perfect to me,

Actually, you would be the first (as far as I know of) to build the non-in-wall design. That might be a turn off, which I would understand. I'm more posting the In-Khan-Design as a joke. But, I am really really happy with the way mine turned out. They are definitely good enough to use as mains. I would image that would hold up for the stand mounted version.

All the the designs you are considering are very good. But, they are different, so it is hard to compare them directly - and different people like different things in a speaker. Some like detail, some like dynamic range. With a limited budget, you might not get both. Likely you'll be happy with any of them. In my opinion, you can over think this easily. Just build the least expensive ones, enjoy them. Then in a couple of years, sell & upgrade. You'll have a better idea of what you like, what, and need then.

Don't worry I've already got plans for the In-Khan-Neatos for a Zone2 set up in my pool room

Truthfully though, I seriously went looking for a "Out-Khan-Neato" design for this particular system.

Did I mention I love being a guinea pig?

Edit: I forgot to mention: the point of the bassbins is that I don't have any place to put a normal sub. My wife has approved me to use a bassbin configuration though, so there we are.

[dlneubec]

I did the RBR design for free and make nothing on the sales. It's a fully documented DIY design with a posted non-proprietary crossover. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program.

There's a fine line here from what might appear to be pushing designs versus making humble recommendations, and I apologize in advance if it appeared as if I was pushing any ethical boundaries in that regard. It wasn't my intent. You may not have been aware that I make no profits from RBR sales.

Regards,

Jed

Jed,

I'm glad to hear the RBR is a free DIY design and that you are not be making anything directly on it. However, lets not be disingenuous. The name of your company is clearly associated with this kit on Madisound and there are several links to your company site, so you certainly gain a great deal of notoriety, free publicity and ultimately sales of other products, which you do profit from.

As someone who does make money through Clearwave, I think it oversteps that line to be posting any recommendation for your own speakers or products or of those associated in any way with your company. Should we let all the other guys who are making money in one way or another through there speakers or other HT products, etc. recommending their products here? Where is that line to be drawn? Do you think we will see Zaph here recommending his driver and suggesting it is better than other options? You are not only recommending something tied to your company name, but arguing why it is a better option than someone else's DIY design, offered with no possible profit, company recognition, etc. to gain.

To me, this behavior steps over the line. It would be the same for me, Zaph, or Curt and Jim if they decided to market the Statement series in some way. It is enough, IMO, that you have your company linked blow your signature and answer questions when asked.

This is the last I will say on the subject and trust Thomas to moderate as he sees fit.

[brianpowers27]

..., Jim played the HT2s a bunch louder than I played the Marcatos and that simply may have excited room resonances more. That said, the HT2s can be played really loud and cleanly and I was very much impressed with their performance. ts.

Agreed...

Wolf and I didn't closely regulate SPL levels. We did succumb to pressure on bahalf of the designers to drive the speakers to whatever level they requested.

From a practical point of view... I am way too cheap to build the Marcatos. If I weren't so cheap, I would not have reservations about building them. If this design fits your needs, they are great speakers.

The real question one needs to ask themselves is whether or not this speaker fits their needs. I imagine that most of the obvious qualititative differences between the Marcatos and the Salk's are not large and could be solvable with basic processing/acoustics.

[---k---]

Truthfully though, I seriously went looking for a "Out-Khan-Neato" design for this particular system.

Did I mention I love being a guinea pig?.

Guinea Pig huh? I was probably in the same boat. cjd took the measurements and did the design work, but the first time he heard them was the same day I heard them for the first time. We didn't changed a thing.

Not sure if you were successful at finding it. We never really called it the "Out-Khan". I just jokingly called it that once or twice. Here is the post with the crossover:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=453448&postcount=69

Everything else should be the same. CJD and I are here if you have questions.

Up to you.

[Rick Craig]

Jed,

I'm glad to hear the RBR is a free DIY design and that you are not be making anything directly on it. However, lets not be disingenuous. The name of your company is clearly associated with this kit on Madisound and there are several links to your company site, so you certainly gain a great deal of notoriety, free publicity and ultimately sales of other products, which you do profit from.

As someone who does make money through Clearwave, I think it oversteps that line to be posting any recommendation for your own speakers or products or of those associated in any way with your company. Should we let all the other guys who are making money in one way or another through there speakers or other HT products, etc. recommending their products here? Where is that line to be drawn? Do you think we will see Zaph here recommending his driver and suggesting it is better than other options? You are not only recommending something tied to your company name, but arguing why it is a better option than someone else's DIY design, offered with no possible profit, company recognition, etc. to gain.

To me, this behavior steps over the line. It would be the same for me, Zaph, or Curt and Jim if they decided to market the Statement series in some way. It is enough, IMO, that you have your company linked blow your signature and answer questions when asked.

This is the last I will say on the subject and trust Thomas to moderate as he sees fit.

You've raised some good points but I've been in Jed's position so I can see it from his perspective as well. Anyone who makes profit from a speaker business should be careful when they post on a site. Some obviously have abused things in the past and that makes it difficult for the others who try to be ethical. I think the last thing anyone wants to see here is Clearwave, Selah, and other kit sellers promoting our products on a continual basis.

My experience is integral with the business so when I post here it's nearly impossible to separate my opinion from what I've learned in the business. In my case (and I believe Jed's as well) I'm always discussing an off-the-shelf driver that you can buy from Madisound, Parts Express, or another distributor. This is quite different than someone plugging a product that they sell exclusively. I do try to give an honest opinion but I know there's always going to be someone who's suspicious that the underlying intent is to sell something. Because of that I keep my posts to a minimum and rarely mention my kits or assembled speakers.

On another note, kudos to Dan and Paul for having a winning design at the Dayton gathering. After designing the crossover for last year's winner it was good for Paul to have someone else help that isn't involved in the business. I wouldn't want to take anything away from what you guys can accomplish. Maybe I can make it to the event next year!

[ThomasW]

This isn't a thread about kit companies or their products. Since people are unable to refrain from taking this thread off topic the thread is now closed.