Getting my feet wet-need swimming lessons!

[Alaric]

I'm thinking of getting a kit from PE or Madisound. I currently have Paradigm Studio 60 v.3 speakers and am wondering if I can better them for under $1K. I'll need to buy cabinets , as well. Woodworking is not my forte and I have no equipment. I can buy clamps and glue , but that's the limit for my wood skills. My soldering experience is limited to multi-strand wire where the wire is heated enough to melt the solder. That technique may noy be a good idea with caps and resistors , so I may have to go with pre-built crossovers.
I'm not adverse to monitors or towers , just looking for good bang-per-buck. I know my limitations will have an effect on that ratio , so I'm askin' the pros.
High efficiency and 8 ohms are factors due to amp limitations in the 4 ohm range.
Any advice is appreciated.

[savage25xtreme]

I would look at the tritrix that Curt has designed. there is a MDF kit available from PE. It will be one of the few options for towers and not having to do much wood working. In the bookshelf speaker category the sky is the limit. check out the Mission accomplished section of this forum.

[Hdale85]

Well the NatP's are great sounding and can go in PE cabinets, last I remember they were ~600 without the cabinets? Also the Modula MT's. I've heard the NatP's in a tower configuration and they sound amazingly nice for the price. Most of the good designs you are going to have a BOM that you will follow and what not. Soldering the crossover isn't to hard even if you have limited experience soldering. Just get it hot enough to melt the solder and you're usually good. There are quite a few designs on the forums here that fit your budget though.

[Alaric]

I would look at the tritrix that Curt has designed. there is a MDF kit available from PE. It will be one of the few options for towers and not having to do much wood working. In the bookshelf speaker category the sky is the limit. check out the Mission accomplished section of this forum.

That is the kit that inspired this thread! Hi , Dougie! :later: I was hoping to hear from you here. Which PE cabinets are NatP friendly? I'll poke around here for a NatP parts list , unless PE has a kit? I like the looks of some of the Madisound kits , but if I can do as well or better with a forum sponsor I'd prefer to go with PE.
I'm open to monitors , but my amp doesn't have a LFE out , so low end would be a problem.

[Amphiprion]

The SR71 kit from Madisound has always looked like a good deal to me.

[ThomasW]

Having to buy cabinets and assembled crossovers, it would be problematic to top these for $1K

[Alaric]

The SR71 is also on my radar , but I worry about bass. The SR71s seem to be awfully small. Has anyone heard some of the suggested DIYs and the Paradigms? I suppose I could do my own comparison after I build a pair!
I was originally torn between an amp upgrade and a DIY speaker upgrade , so I'm open to suggestions across the board.

[chrismercurio]

How much did Zaph's ZTD3.5 cost?

If you can spend 1500, the ZRT 2.5 way would be top notch.

zaphaudio.com

[Hdale85]

Well generally a speaker upgrade is going to give you the biggest change. One problem is that a lot of the speakers on here are more around 4ohm. There are a couple that are 8ohm speakers though. Jed's 4T's are 8ohm but they are a bit more then 1k and you have to build cabinets.

[impala454]

I will second the TriTrix suggestion. Very simple design, easy to build, and inexpensive. Was a great first project for me before I tackled a 5.1 statements monitors setup.

[HareBrained]

I doubt the TriTrix is better than what he has now.

The SR71 will have enough bass for music. The kit from Madisound, http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8306, is only $640. You could get a powered sub with the remaining $360. Something from PE or my fav, edesignaudio.com.

The D'Appolito UA711/UA721 would be nice. PE sell the UA721 MTM kit for $455 per speaker. That's about $60 off the non-kit price. http://www.parts-express.com/project...TOKEN=88593962. If you're room is small, the UA711 kit would be fine and that's $270 a speaker (or $292 for curved). Plus there are the UA701 kits which are a little more expensive than the 711 but will play down into the 40's. All have the xover preassembled. I think you have to cut the driver and port holes. I believe all of these would be a step up.

[Johnloudb]

Lee, if you change your mind and decide to build your own box this website (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/) has what look like some very nice speaker designs. With some of the designs, you can buy them as kits from Jantzen Audio.

This 3-way is available as a complete kit, with a straight forward box design:
"Complete kit available from Jantzen Audio.
Request exact price incl. shipping here: contact@jantzen-audio.com"

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/3WClassic.htm

This also looks interesting:

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164.htm

Those kits recommended by HairBrained look real nice too.

[---k---]

I sort-of agree with Thomas. I've listened to the Paradigm 60's several times. And even did a side-by-side of the Studio 40s versus CJD's RS150 MTM. I don't think the TriTrix are going to get it there. The NatP will be better in midrange and tweeter, but probably won't give the bass thump that he is used too. The SR71 probably also surpass on the quality side, but are going to be somewhat output limited compared to what he is used to.

Jed's Dynamic 2T or even the 1T might get there. Jed will build the crossover, and I believe that Jed will still build the boxes.

I think anyone can build a crossover with a little help from here. Not hard at all.

Another good route to go would be the Mini-Statements, Statement Monitors or the In-Khan-Neatos and have either a local cabinetmaker build the boxes or have someone like Nick Brewer build them and ship them.

DIY doesn't really save money once you consider the value of your time. And then there is the tools and such. Buying kits are still good values in certain ranges.

[HareBrained]

Geez, forgot about Nik Brewer. He can CNC any baffle and cut out the rest of pieces for flat-pack shipping. And that's for a reasonable price. I had him do the baffles for my MTMs because of the pin-cushion frames. If there's a design you like, you can email him and he'll shoot you a quote. All you'd have to do is assemble and finish. He even does the PE cabinet baffles. He stocks them so he can cut and ship quickly and you'd have to ship him yours when they arrive. His work is very good.

http://www.freewebs.com/uber-stealth/

bluegti@hotmail.com

So, if you want to do TG's Classic 3-Way or Zaph's ZDT3.5, one of Jed's cool beasts, or something from the Statement family, there's a way to have a box.

[Hdale85]

I've built 2 of Jed's designs and I can say for sure the 2T's or 4T's would very likely be better then what you have. But I believe I mentioned before they are probably going to be slightly more then 1k. Well worth the cash though as I think the 2T's and 4T's are a great value when you compare to designs in the retail market that would compare.

[TacoD]

Having to buy cabinets and assembled crossovers, it would be problematic to top these for $1K

I agree, the measured performance, especially off-axis, is very good (only the tweeter has some issues). You atleast have to built a 2.5 way design with proper drivers (Seas Basic, SB-acoustics, Peerless Exclusive, some Ushers) to top that performance. Also, the cross-over design should be above the average diy-kit level (say Jon's or Troel's design skills).

I would look into a 2-way with 8" or a 2.5 way 7" drivers. Ideally, a 3way design with a 10" driver, but those designs are rare.

[Rolex]

I have built a number of different DIY designs and before that was into buying commercially available speakers. I've been through a ridiculous amount of commercial speakers including many of the paradigms. I have not owned the studio 60s, but have listened to them many times.

As others have said, you will have a tough time with your budget beating your current speakers. If anything, it will most likely be a side step, not an upgrade.

[---k---]

I agree, the measured performance, especially off-axis, is very good (only the tweeter has some issues). You atleast have to built a 2.5 way design with proper drivers (Seas Basic, SB-acoustics, Peerless Exclusive, some Ushers) to top that performance. Also, the cross-over design should be above the average diy-kit level (say Jon's or Troel's design skills).

The Dayton RS and TB W4-1337 drivers will also compete very well.

Also, my big concern would be voicing. Paradigm has a very different style than the DIY designs here. If you like your Studio 60's, you may not like our designs, even though they will likely measure better in some categories.

I would suggest building a pair of small, budget DIY speakers to dip your toe into the water. See if you like DIY. Then, if you do, go for bigger more ambitious projects. Maybe start with Brandon's "Nobster" or one of Paul Carmondy's or Zaph's designs. There really are lots of budget designs to choose from.

[Alaric]

This is why I came to you guys! I may try the TriTrix recession buster and the SR71. I'm getting the impression that the SR71 may not beat me up as much at (modestly) elevated SPL. I'll probably hang on to the 'Digms-they do have some "slam" when I'm in the mood , but that mood is no longer every time I want to listen to music. Maybe the SR71s and some TT upgrades. The TriTrix RB looks to be fun , relatively easy , and super cheap right now-cheap enough to worth a shot.
Thank you kindly , folks. I'll post my results (and maybe some questions) when I get my first project. Thanks again , you've all been extremely helpful.

[Johnloudb]

It will be really interesting to see how these designs compare to your Studio 60s. I look forward to seeing your speaker build. :T

Also, my big concern would be voicing. Paradigm has a very different style than the DIY designs here. If you like your Studio 60's, you may not like our designs, even though they will likely measure better in some categories.

Ryan,

Just curious, how are the DIY speakers hear voiced different? I know that J.Gordon Holt often complained about audiophile speakers being voiced to laid back, or polite. I also never really cared for the Wilson Watt Puppy 1, which I auditioned a few times in different audio stores. They always sounded laid back, polite and seamed a bit analytical. Not, that I think all audiophile speakers sound like that. Some I really like, like our small Thiels. And I always like the Spica TC60 and TC80 that I've heard in show rooms.

Our speakers are more forward sounding like a recording monitor speaker, as that's what they were designed for. They have high sensitivity, with wide dynamic range, and were voiced with accuracy in mind. And if you put on a bad recording you run for the hills (well not really that bad), they are actually a bit more forgiving that the TB W4. Good recordings can sound gorgeous though.

So, I was just wondering if that's the difference you're talking about?

Not sure how that relates to frequency response. Maybe, a dip in the midrange gives you a more laid back sound?

[Hdale85]

Well Paradigms generally are a bit on the bright side. They are excellent speakers though but this is the complaints I've heard of them. DIY designs are all built the be flat across the FR plot. So I'm guessing that's what he's talking about as Paradigms have some boost in the treble regions and DIY designs generally do not although not hard to change this for each persons taste.

[TacoD]

Well Paradigms generally are a bit on the bright side. They are excellent speakers though but this is the complaints I've heard of them. DIY designs are all built the be flat across the FR plot. So I'm guessing that's what he's talking about as Paradigms have some boost in the treble regions and DIY designs generally do not although not hard to change this for each persons taste.

I would address that to the poor tweeter performance and flat on-axis response in the midrange (as seen in the Stereophile measurements).

In Toole's research with blind listening tests he concluded that a 1-2 dB downward tilt towards higher frequencies appeared as neutral. Therefore, the flat response of the Paradigm can be somewhat brighter. I think that the tweeter is the main problem.

[---k---]

John (and everyone),
I'm painting with a pretty broad brush and making a lot of assumptions. I wish I didn't have to, but unfortunately its not possible to get every speaker in my room. So, please bear with me.

It's easier to hear than to describe. When I had the Studio 40's in my room and compared them to CJD's MTM, Ascend 340SE, and DynAudio 40's, I found the Paradigms to be a bit more forward and slightly on the bright side (and my room is very well damped) and boomier bass. Initially, I liked the forward sound, but it is a bit much (the Khans are somewhat more forward than CJD's big 3-ways). CJD said the tweeter was smacking him in the face. The bass is, I'm guessing, just a higher Q. It may also have been the tuning and how they couple with the room. DIY speakers around here like to have low Q, and roll off slowly to better match the room.

The differences really came down to: if you walk into a room the Paradigms sound great. Big sound. Has sparkle and boom. Great for cranking up and jamming. In fact, I did jam to the Studio 60's for a good 1/2 hour at a dealers, because they are fun speakers. Rock and parties will love them.

But, sitting down and putting them up against CJD's RS150 MTM and listening for the differences, they differences became obvious. CJD's were more detailed and clear. Everything was tight and precise. With good recordings, everything just sounded realer, not a recording.

Now the DynAudio's were very different from the Paradigms and the CJD's MTM. So....

[Alaric]

Hi , Ryan. Thanks for the input. We seem to have the same take on my speakers. My room is pretty well damped , also. My speakers are on the long wall , and my amp is pretty "sweet" sounding if I don't try to squeeze the last watt out of it. At moderate volumes it really works with my speakers and room. And they are great rock speakers when I crank it a little. My Japanese pressing of Nirvana's Nevermind sounds pretty good on them.
Having said all that , I'm looking forward to Natalie Merchant without it sounding like her amp is taped to my head. The horns on Break Your Heart are kind of sharp through the Paradigms. A sweeter speaker would be nice for that kind of stuff. My amp has two sets of binding posts , maybe I could sweet-talk Doug into making me another set of Cattails...hmmmm. Different speakers for different moods and music. I could like this DIY stuff !
Anybody know of an appropriate soft dome tweeter for the Studio 60? Had them on a pair of A/D/S speakers once and they were beautiful.
Am I the only one who can hear the suspense building? Yeah , probably.

[Hdale85]

Generally it's hard to find a drop in replacement tweeter without knowing how the crossover is working or at the very least some measurement equipment to take measurements of your speakers. Sometimes it can sound worse even if it's a better tweeter.

[ThomasW]

Have EQ built into your receiver or pre-pro? If so use it to soften the top end.. Also look at other equipment in the playback chain. It's not unheard of for a CD player to have a hot top end, and that characteristic be mistakenly attributed to the speakers.

[Johnloudb]

Also, try moving the speakers back closer to the rear wall. This will boost the lower frequencies some and can sometimes tame a speaker that sounds bright. Also, you could try putting some felt or open cell foam on the top and sides of the tweeter. Doing this made a big difference to the sound of our speakers. Reduced diffraction caused by the edges of the grill, and maybe shaped the response some. It's cheap and worth trying IMO.

You could also buy a some resistors and pad down the tweeter a bit. You can use this calculator to find the right values. Try several and experiment a bit.

Calculator

Don't every yell at once please. :takecover:

[Alaric]

No EQ , receiver , or prepro. Just my 'lil integrated. I'm really not displeased with the Paradigms , but I do want to try something different. A good speaker with a little less "in my face" would be fun to add to the system.

[---k---]

I would not modify your existing speakers. Paradigms are meant to sound that way.

You should go to the Part's Express DIY event coming up in Dayton on July 11. Check out what they have and go from there.

[Hdale85]

Yeah probably be a good chance to hear a lot of different designs that are right here on the forum.

[Jed]

I've built 2 of Jed's designs and I can say for sure the 2T's or 4T's would very likely be better then what you have. But I believe I mentioned before they are probably going to be slightly more then 1k.

Basic kit for the 2T is $744.00. http://www.clearwaveloudspeaker.com/prices.html

I've got free shipping until the end of the month as well. Thank you for the recommendations guys. Lots of good options out there.

My feeling is if you want bass, a single 7" driver design probably won't cut it unless you want to add the sub later on. More Sd is always a good thing.

[Hdale85]

Ah 744 for the 2T that's a nice price I didn't realize what the cost was. Unfortunately he would need to build cabinets though as I think your cabinet options take it beyond 1k.

[Alaric]

Yeah , I'm kind of hosed on cabinet cost , but $744 for the kit seems to be a sweet deal. I'm screwed on the sub option , as well. No LFE out on my amp. Dayton would be great , but I have to work that day. Building cabinets isn't an option for me. I work in metal (mistakes takes less material off). I don't have the space or tools to build them. I'll have to consider getting the kit and worrying about the cabinets later , though , as I'm really intrigued by the idea.

[Hdale85]

Well they should sound the same as mine just 2 less drivers and they sound fantastic I'd put them up against a lot of stuff and not break a sweat.

[TacoD]

Can't you try with another source with eq (e.g. laptop, be careful with groundloops). Maybe an ipod (clone), do those things have eq???

[Jed]

Yeah , I'm kind of hosed on cabinet cost , but $744 for the kit seems to be a sweet deal. I'm screwed on the sub option , as well. No LFE out on my amp. Dayton would be great , but I have to work that day. Building cabinets isn't an option for me. I work in metal (mistakes takes less material off). I don't have the space or tools to build them. I'll have to consider getting the kit and worrying about the cabinets later , though , as I'm really intrigued by the idea.

Nik Brewer could send you a flat pack cabinet kit. All you'd have to do is glue everything up. I'd bet you could do it for less than 1k.

[Dennis H]

The construction business is pretty slow right now so I'll bet you could find a local cabinet maker to build the cabinets. Or just have Jed do it.

Edit: ah I forgot about Nik. He's probably the best deal you'll find.

[HareBrained]

Yeah , I'm kind of hosed on cabinet cost , but $744 for the kit seems to be a sweet deal. I'm screwed on the sub option , as well. No LFE out on my amp. Dayton would be great , but I have to work that day. Building cabinets isn't an option for me. I work in metal (mistakes takes less material off). I don't have the space or tools to build them. I'll have to consider getting the kit and worrying about the cabinets later , though , as I'm really intrigued by the idea.

Nik Brewer will assemble for you as well, if you really can't do it. You would just need to finish the cabinets. And he will do BB ply or MDF. I think you'd be surprised by how cost effective it would be. You've got $256 left in your budget and I'd bet that would get you real close to having them playing sooner rather than later.

Shoot, if I lived close by, I'd build them for you in exchange for getting to listen to them. But alas, I don't. Maybe someone else will volunteer.

[Alaric]

Well , before I contact Nik Brewer , I think I only have one more question for Jed: at 87db will my 95wpc integrated give me enough juice to make the 2Ts hit elevated SPL without breaking something? If my amp is going to run out of steam and keep me from using them , new speakers wouldn't make sense.
I'd be better off getting more current for my existing speakers. Budgets suck.

[Jed]

Well , before I contact Nik Brewer , I think I only have one more question for Jed: at 87db will my 95wpc integrated give me enough juice to make the 2Ts hit elevated SPL without breaking something? If my amp is going to run out of steam and keep me from using them , new speakers wouldn't make sense.
I'd be better off getting more current for my existing speakers. Budgets suck.

The 2T has about the easiest impedance load out there at 8 ohms with no major phase angle changes. 95Watts is plenty enough power. If you said you had a 15watt single ended tube amp I'd be a bit more worried.

[Hdale85]

87dB is very sensitive. A lot of speaker companies tend to bloat their sensitivity rating I doubt there are much more efficient designs then the 2T/4T.

[Jed]

87dB is very sensitive. A lot of speaker companies tend to bloat their sensitivity rating I doubt there are much more efficient designs then the 2T/4T.

Exactly, and if they do have higher sensitivity and use drivers like used in my speakers, they likely don't have any baffle step compensation.

[Alaric]

Outstanding news on the sensitivity! The partial kit looks good , but if I substitute the missing parts , I may run the risk of not getting 100% of the design. I guess I should contact Nik Brewer now , and see how over budget I'll be with the full kit and cabinets. Feet wet? I think I've been shoved in the pool! I can hardly wait.

[Jed]

Outstanding news on the sensitivity! The partial kit looks good , but if I substitute the missing parts , I may run the risk of not getting 100% of the design. I guess I should contact Nik Brewer now , and see how over budget I'll be with the full kit and cabinets. Feet wet? I think I've been shoved in the pool! I can hardly wait.

Here's what I recommend to save some cash-- Line the bass cabinet with fiberglass batting. Get a sheet of sonic barrier and maybe 1lb of acousta stuff for the mid chambers. Use PVC pipe for the port and don't go crazy on the wire. Screws can be anything and you could use less expensive quick connects. If this is something you want just shoot me an email and I can help you out. Honestly, no pressure or anything I don't want you to get into trouble by going over the budget.

I'm sure the Nic Brewer cabinets will be really nice though.

[Hdale85]

I used fiber glass in mine. You just gotta get the stuff that has no paper backing too it.