New project build - 3 Way Speakers

[MaxwellM]

First off I just wanted to say that this is my first post here, but I have been quietly reading and searching audio forums for almost two years now. I have to say thank you to everyone here who has contributed anything to this and other forums. It is a vast wealth of knowledge and has been very helpful. These forums are the reason I have been able to go as far as I have with my home theater setup.

Introduction:
Ok, now a little back story. I have been into audio as long as I can remember. I started quite a few years ago with guitars, and the wonderful world of tube amps. That lead me into finding what I thought was some of the best sounding amps. Personally I love the sound of a good Sunn Model T with some nice KT88's. This eventually led me into the Pro-audio world. I put together my own very modest home recording setup. And then eventually this led me to the world of home theater. I love a good setup and it was finally time to start on my own, so, I ended up here.

Enough back story. My current setup is a Panasonic PT-AX200U, I have a DIY, Wilsonart DW screen. HTPC, Onkyo TX-SR 302, Realistic LAB-420 turntable. KLH 9912's as my mains, and alternatively a pair of KRK Rokit RP8's that I use as reference monitors on my computer setup in my other room.

My current plans are quite extensive on what all I would like to upgrade, so I figured I would post here and share my progress and ask for any input, idea's and opinions.

Obviously I have a few weak links in my HT chain, and I will be upgrading those soon, (Onkyo tx-sr 805 or the new 807/1007) But that is for an entirely different forum.

For now I am looking at building my own set of speakers and a sub(s) After hours and days of research, I think I have settled on building a pair of the Statements by Jim Holtz. The more I have read though, The more I think I might go with the Dayton RS 3 Ways. I am not quite sure which I would like to go with. This will be my second speaker build. My first was a guitar speaker cabinet. I have plenty of friends eager and ready to help as well as access to the space and tools to build so none of that should be a problem... I hope.

For quite a while I was worried about sound quality, but from everything I have read the SQ is quite amazing. (Compared to speakers in the price range I am looking at) One of my best friends has a pair of B&W 683's powered by an Onkyo 606. I have had the chance to listen to these more than enough to say I am quite familiar with their sound. I also am a fan of Klipsch RF 82s. But there is always a sweet spot in my ears for those older systems with lots of overkill. The larger Klipsh setups, Cerwin Vegas, KLH and other setups using a good solid floor standing speaker. I Have always enjoyed a good full range in front of a HT setup because I would have to say what I listen to is 60/40 | Music / Movies.

As for a sub to go with these, I have not quite decided on which I want to do. I have been thinking of going with a pair of Sono subs or running a large box directly underneath my screen and placing my center on top of that.
My room size by comparison is a bit small by comparison as to the speaker setup I am looking at putting into it. But I do plan on eventually either making the room larger or moving somewhere I can have a room large enough to support the speakers. My room is 13' W x 17' L x 8' H. The way I have everything set up is viewing the screen is center along one of the 17 foot walls, and the couch is opposite that. I can and will take pictures later.

There is an almost identical post that I origionally wrote over at AVS Forum.
If anyone would like to read anything up on what I have put there here is the link to it: DIY Project, full 5.1 Setup

Anyway, any helpful input is always welcome.

Thanks,

Maxwell Mahoney

[fordmaker]

The Dayton RS 3-way sits on 3ohms for much of the impedance plot, so upgrading your tx-sr302 would probably be a necessity to drive these. The Statements appear to be friendlier to impedance challenged amps. When you upgrade to an 8xx level receiver this shouldn't matter.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your build, whichever you choose.

[cjd]

Eh, grab some good monoblocks and the RS 3-ways are golden. I recommend it - that way you don't have to worry about what you put in front of them, ever. I'm running Outlaws right now, they've never had an issue. I've had a few other amps in there too.

At moderate output levels they seem to be fine with a less low-impedance friendly amp, but it depends on the topology. I got a 3775 based chip-amp to go into shutdown mode at about 92dB (~1M one speaker) - that's rated conservatively as 8ohm stable in the configuration I run it.

Getting the crossovers together may be a pain also - they're not for the faint of heart.

The Khanspires are a smaller sibling to these.

And of course the Statements have been incredibly well received.

[MaxwellM]

Eh, grab some good monoblocks and the RS 3-ways are golden. I recommend it - that way you don't have to worry about what you put in front of them, ever. I'm running Outlaws right now, they've never had an issue. I've had a few other amps in there too.

At moderate output levels they seem to be fine with a less low-impedance friendly amp, but it depends on the topology. I got a 3775 based chip-amp to go into shutdown mode at about 92dB (~1M one speaker) - that's rated conservatively as 8ohm stable in the configuration I run it.

Getting the crossovers together may be a pain also - they're not for the faint of heart.

The Khanspires are a smaller sibling to these.

And of course the Statements have been incredibly well received.

Yes, Like I said before I am a big fan of bigger speakers. ... If you were to ask any old hot rod guy, they would simply reply with the age old quote "there is no replacement for displacement" ... Now dont get me wrong, I work in the tech industry and am all about finding new innovations to proven designs, but I have never in my life heard a 4-6 inch speaker be able to do the things 10's and 12's can do. (if used for the same application)
That is what really caught my eye about the RS 3-ways. That and the simplistic design.
The other thing is though, I know they will sound considerably different than the statements (even the sealed versions) being that the RS 3-Ways are all woofers, and the Statements have the ribbon tweeter.
I really wish I had a chance to listen to either, (or lucky me both) setups.

Thanks for the extra bit of info, I have always wanted to go with mono blocks, but I always saw them as being WAY out of my price range.
If these OUTLAWS are what you are talking about, then that is a great deal.

Either way, the first thing I will be doing is going with a better Receiver. All of my components are bitching at me for having HDMI out's and not using them. That and I cant wait to have a good amp behind everything. So I might just go with the receiver first then get that set of monoblocks later.

The more I keep reading the harder it is for me to decide on what I really want to go with. I keep going back and forth.

Maxwell

[MaxwellM]

Getting the crossovers together may be a pain also - they're not for the faint of heart.

Oh, and on that note... This is only a tiny bit off topic, but...
The crossovers do not scare me one bit. IMHO that will be easier than putting the boxes together. I have a good friend who is an electrical engineer and small electronics builder. We have been playing around with the Idea of getting some custom boards made for the crossovers. I know that has been debated here on the forums a bit. I figured for all the help I have had here, I would try to help out you guys. If we do decide to put together a design for board for crossovers I will gladly share them. We might try to see If we can get a deal for a small bulk set of say 5 to 10 boards. If there is enough interest I will start a thread for it.

Maxwell

[ThomasW]

I had a little chat with JonMarsh yesterday about this thread, this is our collective opinion.

Unfortunately your "What I want" and What I have" are in conflict.....

With an effective listening depth of 13', your head will be at the rear wall (this isn't a good thing). And any large mains properly spaced from the front wall will be so close to the listening position they'll be effectively functioning as headphones. This means you can forget about having a realistic soundstage.

Going with smaller less visually impressive mains will give some potential of recreating a realistic soundstage.

Rotating the listening position the 17' direction (if possible) provides a wider choice of possible speakers and the potential of recreating a more realistic soundstage both for 2 channel and for HT.

[MaxwellM]

I had a little chat with JonMarsh yesterday about this thread, this is our collective opinion.

Unfortunately your "What I want" and What I have" are in conflict.....

With an effective listening depth of 13', your head will be at the rear wall (this isn't a good thing). And any large mains properly spaced from the front wall will be so close to the listening position they'll be effectively functioning as headphones. This means you can forget about having a realistic soundstage.

Going with smaller less visually impressive mains will give some potential of recreating a realistic soundstage.

Rotating the listening position the 17' direction (if possible) provides a wider choice of possible speakers and the potential of recreating a more realistic soundstage both for 2 channel and for HT.

Well to be honest with you. Most of what I have been doing this week has been trying to figure out how to rotate my HT room to the longer setup.
I am planning on (finishing installing my overhead lights) and painting. During all of this I think a relocation of my screen and everything in the room would make a dramatic difference in how everything works.
The only issue there is, I would easily have enough room off of the (new) back wall but the speakers would be somewhat near the sides of the walls with the screen taking up about 80-90% of the entire wall.

That is the real reason I should probably go with sealed versus ported, as they require a bit less space and can be somewhat closer to the walls.
When I get home from work today, I will go measure everything out and put up some ideas here.

If you think that I should still go with something smaller, I am all ears.

Maxwell

[ThomasW]

That is the real reason I should probably go with sealed versus ported, as they require a bit less space and can be somewhat closer to the walls.

Sealed vs ported isn't the real issue. Most speakers are designed with baffle step compensation, this is a form of EQ and it's used in speakers that are located 2' or more out from the walls. If a speaker having BSC is placed up against the wall it can sound chesty or midbass heavy. There are Non-BSC versions of some of the speakers in the Missions Accomplished section.

Sometimes EQ like that in a receiver or pre-pro can be used to effect changes in system placed too close to boundaries, but that doesn't guarantee the best possible sound quality.

With the 13' area you'll need a significant acoustic trap on the wall behind your head. Otherwise the soundstage will be muddy. Another consideration is rear channel speakers can't be placed behind the listener, so they'll have to fire sideways toward the listener.

If the screen is a big as you say there's a problem if it's put on the narrow end because it will block the output from the speakers. If you had an acoustically transparent screen the front L-C-R speakers can be placed behind it.

[MaxwellM]

Sealed vs ported isn't the real issue. Most speakers are designed with baffle step compensation, this is a form of EQ and it's used in speakers that are located 2' or more out from the walls. If a speaker having BSC is placed up against the wall it can sound chesty or midbass heavy. There are Non-BSC versions of some of the speakers in the Missions Accomplished section.

Sometimes EQ like that in a receiver or pre-pro can be used to effect changes in system placed too close to boundaries, but that doesn't guarantee the best possible sound quality.

With the 13' area you'll need a significant acoustic trap on the wall behind your head. Otherwise the soundstage will be muddy. Another consideration is rear channel speakers can't be placed behind the listener, so they'll have to fire sideways toward the listener.

If the screen is a big as you say there's a problem if it's put on the narrow end because it will block the output from the speakers. If you had an acoustically transparent screen the front L-C-R speakers can be placed behind it.

Thanks,

Its things like this that I decided to ask questions before going to the next step. I know stepping into a project like this for me (and most people) requires quite a bit of setup, idea's, layout and considerations. The more I read the more I am learning about so many things I had no idea played a part in loudspeaker design.

Well, I have quite a bit to think about. My screen is 108 (Viewable) which is 9 feet, but with the masking and everything else It is about 124 or so, so a little over ten feet. If I move the screen to the shorter wall (for longer viewing and listening width) I would have to place the speakers very close to the walls. I would have about 2 foot of clearance between the walls and the viewable area of the screen. The width of the speakers I have been looking at is roughly 12 inches (1 foot) So, that would leave about a another foot of room on each SIDE of the speaker. I could move them a good bit further forward for space behind them.

So, The choice i have is; More room on either side with a very short throw area. Or, less room on the sides, but with a larger area front to back.

I know my room size is less than desirable, but it is what I have to work with...

Maxwell

[MaxwellM]

Sealed vs ported isn't the real issue. Most speakers are designed with baffle step compensation, this is a form of EQ and it's used in speakers that are located 2' or more out from the walls. If a speaker having BSC is placed up against the wall it can sound chesty or midbass heavy. There are Non-BSC versions of some of the speakers in the Missions Accomplished section.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090219142003/http://www.salksound.com/bsc.html

https://speakerdesignworks.com/bafflestep.html

https://web.archive.org/web/20091124...bafflestep.htm

Thanks. Just figured I would share what I just found (even though it has been linked all over). Some people might want to look back on this for reference (Like I have done with so many other threads.)

[cjd]

Acoustically transparent screen on an acoustically transparent false wall about 3 feet from one end of the room. Speakers 6-8 inches behind the screen.

If you're the DIY type on the screen, check out SeymourAV. Awesome material (it's what I use on my screen).

shoponkyo.com often has great prices on refurbs that may give you a cost effective stepping stone - their 7xx series and up are 4ohm stable to boot!

Ever get up to Chicago?

[MaxwellM]

Acoustically transparent screen on an acoustically transparent false wall about 3 feet from one end of the room. Speakers 6-8 inches behind the screen.

If you're the DIY type on the screen, check out SeymourAV. Awesome material (it's what I use on my screen).
r
shoponkyo.com often has great prices on refurbs that may give you a cost effective stepping stone - thei7xx series and up are 4ohm stable to boot!

Ever get up to Chicago?

Well, I just finished putting the finishing touches up on my Wilsonart DW screen. I am rather fond of it. So I do not think I will be going with anything acoustically transparent until I get a room big enough to support that.

I have seen quite a few good results with the acoustically transparent screens.

I have seen shoponkyo.com before, and there are lots of good deals. I am currently looking to get my hands on an Onkyo Tx-SR 805 or hold out for this years new model the 807/1007 (whatever they are calling it). But that is for an entirely different thread.

Maxwell