Should I throw these away or replace the drivers?

[Ray Tremblay]

Alright guys....this recession is kickin my A$$, but I'm tired of not having any speakers to listen to. And no, I don't want the "Recession Destroyers". Hahaha!!! :B I've got a pair of JBL HLS820 towers that I was using as shop speakers back in 2006. I no longer have my automotive shop, so these speakers really have no purpose other than taking up space in the closet. I honestly can't stand the sound quality, so I won't even listen to them. They're in very good condition, and don't look too bad, so instead of giving them away, I'd like to replace the drivers and build some new crossovers for them. They're currently loaded with 210 mm woofers and a "horn" (1/2" poly tweet snapped into the back of a plastic waveguide).



Internal dimensions are 10-1/8 X 8-1/2 X 38-1/8 giving me around 1.9 cu ft. The ports are 6" long x 2-1/2" diameter. The baffles are 9-3/4" wide. Woofer to tweeter center spacing is 8-3/4".

I was thinking of enlarging the woofer holes slightly to install Dayton RS225's. I'm assuming I'd have to use these sealed because of the enclosure size. I was also considering mounting some Seas 27TDFC's against the waveguides like Zaph did for his "Waveguide TMM" project.

Of course, I'll need new crossovers.....

Without going any further, what do you guys think?

[Undefinition]

Internal dimensions are 10-1/8 X 8-1/2 X 38-1/8 giving me around 1.9 cu ft. The ports are 6" long x 2-1/2" diameter. The baffles are 9-3/4" wide. Woofer to tweeter center spacing is 8-3/4".

I was thinking of enlarging the woofer holes slightly to install Dayton RS225's. I'm assuming I'd have to use these sealed because of the enclosure size. I was also considering mounting some Seas 27TDFC's against the waveguides like Zaph did for his "Waveguide TMM" project.

Of course, I'll need new crossovers.....

Without going any further, what do you guys think?

Without going any further, a 2-way with the RS225 is a really difficult crossover (don't think I haven't tried it a few times :W Haven't come up with anything that would justify the number of parts)
A pair of RS180 will be good and happy in that size box--again a very difficult XO, though not impossible.
There are much easier woofers to work with out there. I would suggest maybe something by Peerless for your job.

Now, here's my suggestion: build a new baffle and put it over the old one. (Or, if you take your time, you can cut the old baffle off using a table saw, or a circular saw + a sawboard.) This way you can keep the cabinet, but you can have almost infinite possibility of 6"-8" drivers to put in.

[Ray Tremblay]

Without going any further, a 2-way with the RS225 is a really difficult crossover (don't think I haven't tried it a few times :W

This is what I was worried about since Mark K seems to be the only person with a documented build of an RS225 two way.

A pair of RS180 will be good and happy in that size box--again a very difficult XO, though not impossible.

I'm a HUGE fan of the RS180's. LOVE their clean low end. I just wanted to try the RS225 because I don't have any experience with them and wanted to give them a shot. Plus, they'll easily fit in this enclosure without serious modification.

There are much easier woofers to work with out there. I would suggest maybe something by Peerless for your job.

So far, i'm a Dayton RS Die Hard fan. I was SHOCKED by the RS180's when I bought four of them for my car. I'm very poor these days, and that makes their pricing very right.

Now, here's my suggestion: build a new baffle and put it over the old one. (Or, if you take your time, you can cut the old baffle off using a table saw, or a circular saw + a sawboard.) This way you can keep the cabinet, but you can have almost infinite possibility of 6"-8" drivers to put in.

I was thinking about building a new baffle, and this very well may be the route I have to take, but I would like to avoid this unless absolutely necessary.

Thank you Paul! And by the way, I really like your Sunflowers. I'm glad to see musicians designing speakers. After all, who's a better judge of what music should sound like then the guys that create it? :T

[J-Dub]

Hi Ray

Nice to see another San Antonian!!!

I think replacing the front baffle is a great idea and easy to do. Ive laminated almost every build this way, "by adding an extra baffle" and am currently doing this with my mini statements build. if ya need a hand just let me know.

As for Xovers Im a complete NOOB and have only used other designs. Curt, Jed and Jon may be able to lend a hand there as their designs are all well recieved.

If it comes down to wood working feel free to contact me. I have no problem lending a hand.

If you do end up "renewing" your front baffle some type of 3 way using a Tang Band mid may end up a highly pleasurable device. I cant believe the soundstage. Impressive!

[Notorious_AK]

Ray, what is it you don't like about their sound? I'm just curious.

[Ray Tremblay]

Hi Ray

Nice to see another San Antonian!!!

I feel the same way! Hahaha! :B

I think replacing the front baffle is a great idea and easy to do. Ive laminated almost every build this way, "by adding an extra baffle" and am currently doing this with my mini statements build. if ya need a hand just let me know. If it comes down to wood working feel free to contact me. I have no problem lending a hand. 210 204 6024. If you do end up "renewing" your front baffle some type of 3 way using a Tang Band mid may end up a highly pleasurable device. I cant believe the soundstage. Impressive!

It's looking like I might have to replace the front baffle. I've posted this same thread over at Parts Express Techtalk, and no one wants to touch this project. I guess for good reason though. It would probably be very hard to design and build a crossover for this combo, and the results wouldn't be very good.

How far along are you on those mini-statements? I'd LOVE to hear those! I'm very curious to hear what all the fuss is about over those Tang Band titanium mids.

Thanks J-Dub! :T

[Ray Tremblay]

Ray, what is it you don't like about their sound? I'm just curious.

Everything about them is horrible. Well, ok, not everything.....they are efficient, but that's it. Not much low end extension for a pair of 8's in a ported enclosure. Two Dayton RS180's in a smaller enclosure have better extension, and sound MUCH, MUCH, MUCH cleaner. The tweets sound pretty lousy also. They're actually almost identical to this tweet:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_324&products_id=96

The flange is slightly different so that they can mount in the waveguide, but other than that, these are the tweets. They're five bucks each, and trust me, they sound like it.

[BOBinGA]

To keep it simple, you could put Zaph's ZDT3.5 in that box pretty easily. The volume would work just fine. You probably don't need to partition the cabinet like John did if you shorten the port to 2.75". John's cabinet is slightly narrower, but yours is close enough. Build a new baffle to John's other dimensions, maybe build a base to raise it slightly and shorten the port and it should work great.

[brianpowers27]

To keep it simple, you could put Zaph's ZDT3.5 in that box pretty easily. The volume would work just fine. You probably don't need to partition the cabinet like John did if you shorten the port to 2.75". John's cabinet is slightly narrower, but yours is close enough. Build a new baffle to John's other dimensions, maybe build a base to raise it slightly and shorten the port and it should work great.

+1

If you are really set on the rs225 woofer you might be able to sub those in for the rs180s in the ZDT 3.5 This would likely require a small amount of modification.

[BOBinGA]

On second thought, you would need to partition the box in half. The design is a .5 crossover, so the two woofers would interfere with each other in the .5 range in a single box. But adding a partition should be relatively easy once you remove the horn. With two sections and based on the current specs, you would need one of these ports (as is - no cutting) in each section if you stick with the RS180S:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-478

As Brian said, you could also try two RS225S in a two section closed box.

-Bob

[J-Dub]

How far along are you on those mini-statements? I'd LOVE to hear those! I'm very curious to hear what all the fuss is about over those Tang Band titanium mids.

Ironically, i'm at the stage of adding the second baffle made from walnut and cherry. You are more than welcome to come check them out. They are getting close to done.

BTW if you do end up hacking off the front baffle. I would recommend using painters tape along the sides of the enclosure so it doesnt get scratched up.

[bluewizard]

Here is a thought, though I don't claim to be an expert. As long as your cabinet already has opening to the waveguides, why not replace the waveguide with a real Horn Mid/High speaker?

A large horn will probably bring the crossover down into the working range of the RS225, and will still do a fair job on the high end. Though horn do tend to be loud, so, you will have to attenuate them significantly to match the woofer. Still, I've got a system with horn mids and horn tweeters and I really like it. The horns are crystal clear.

The other alternative is to pair two 8" woofers with a couple of full range speakers like the Dayton Reference RS100, or perhaps one of the many Tang Band full range speakers. You might even be able to find a suitable waveguide to put in front of the Full Range speaker.

That's probably not a great choice, but I think both are workable, and both are about the only way you will get the RS225 into a 2-way system.

The only other choice is to go with a 3-way system.

Just a few random thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

[1Michael]

How about rip out the baffle and replace it with a new one designed for the NatP or Modula?

[Ray Tremblay]

To keep it simple, you could put Zaph's ZDT3.5 in that box pretty easily. The volume would work just fine.

Bob, it's looking like your idea is the best. I didn't realize that these enclosures were close in size to this design. I'm seriously considering this.

You probably don't need to partition the cabinet like John did if you shorten the port to 2.75".

Just curious; how would the partition affect the need for a different port length?

John's cabinet is slightly narrower, but yours is close enough.

I hope the extra 3/4" of width doesn't throw a wrench in this plan. I hate to stray from John's exact design. I'd guess that it annoys the hell out of him when people do that.

Build a new baffle to John's other dimensions, maybe build a base to raise it slightly and shorten the port and it should work great.

"Build a new baffle to John's other dimensions..." ??????? Other dimensions?? I'm confused. Could you explain this?

[Ray Tremblay]

Ironically, i'm at the stage of adding the second baffle made from walnut and cherry. You are more than welcome to come check them out.

I'm gonna have to take you up on this offer! What's your name, J-Dub? I'd feel silly calling and asking for you by your HTGuide username. :B

[BOBinGA]

Use John's dimensions other than width. In other words, keep his driver spacing the same and tweeter distance from the top of the box the same.

If you use a roundover on the new baffle, it should be close enough to John's 9" width that the difference will be almost non-existent.

When I first posted the response, I was mistakenly thinking the ZDT3.5 was a simple double woofer with both playing the same range. In that case, you can model the box as a single box with twice the volume of a single driver. The port length would be shorter in that case. (It seems counter-intuitive, but that's what WinISD says.) But in this case, since the woofers do not cover the exact same range (one is cut off before the other for baffle step reasons) you have to model it as separate boxes for each woofer. In that case the port is longer. You can't put the two woofers in the same box - thus the partition to make two boxes inside one larger box. If you put them in a single volume, the woofer that has the higher cut off would cause the other to vibrate sympathetically and defeat the purpose of the .5 crossover.

p.s. I based the box and port size on the newest specs for the RS180S. Zaph's box is based on his measured specs from two years ago. Apparently almost all the RS drivers' TS parameters are a bit different than they were a while back.

[Ray Tremblay]

John mentions in the ZDT3.5 page on his site: "The divider between the upper and lower woofer is not required for clean system operation, but it does add rigidity to the enclosure."

He has a section of his website, Common Enclosures in 2.5-Way systems, where he concluded that two woofers in a 2.5 way setup can share a volume of air without any major or noticeable problems in sound quality.

I'm gonna be lazy and leave the divider out on this one.

[BOBinGA]

I remember that article, but I didn't remember that it was about .5 systems. If it works for John, then go for it. In that case, use the short port to start with. You could try to just cut off the existing port. When I ran your existing 2.5" X 6" port in WinISD, it resulted in a big fall off in the bass.

Keep us posted on your build.

-Bob

[stangbat]

I love the idea of the ZDT3.5 (I'm biased of course). Although I'm no expert on design, I really think the extra 3/4" is not much to be worried about. If you can justify spending the money on the drivers, it will be well worth the effort since so much of the cabinet work is already done.

If you do this, please keep us posted on the progress and end result. I'd really like to see it.

[Ray Tremblay]

If you do this, please keep us posted on the progress and end result. I'd really like to see it.

I really think this is what I'll do as my "first build". The ZDT3.5's have everything I'm looking for at the moment.

1) They use two RS180's per speaker. (my favorite small woofer)

2) It's cheap.

3) It's a design that will more than likely work with my enclosures without any major sound quality issues.

4) It's a three way design. (to be honest, I hate two way designs)

I'll definitely keep you guys posted.

[J-Dub]

I'm gonna have to take you up on this offer! What's your name, J-Dub? I'd feel silly calling and asking for you by your HTGuide username.

HI Ray, I go by Wayne. Feel free to give me a call. I will have some spare time the next few days. I took my number off of the original post but if you didn't write it down message me and I will get it to you again.

When it comes to removing that front baffle let me know I may be able to give you a hand.
I set up an edge guide and a circular saw with surgical precision and I have a table saw. The table saw has never been taken out of the box and I will have to set it up mainly because I always get better cuts with the guide but in this case it may be easier to use the table saw. We'll have to see.

Sounds like you are getting a good build together here!! :T