ISO Mid-Bass for Econo-Waveguide

[CraigJ]

Hey Dan,
I sorta missed the 'econo' part of your thread title.

Dennis,

I think Dan is talking about this speaker: http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthr...14#post1856214 called the Econowave. Does anyone know if Earl ever get around to testing it?

Dan, what ever happened to this combo you were working on; BMS+DSS+RS225=? HT Mains?

Craig

[NEO Dan]

Craig,
you've found the rabbit hole. Be careful you could get lost in there....

as for the previous "Ideas"
I got schooled on a few things...
DSS = bad quality
RSS = C-T-C too far

So I keep coming back with questions, eventually someone won't object.

[ThomasW]

Here's the RCF H-100

http://www.loudspeakersplus.com/product.asp?specific=jropenm0

I think the screw-on DDS ENG waveguides are still ok, that's what Emerald Physics is using in their most expensive system.

Dan,

Thanks for the offer but I'll be buying a couple of the Selenium drivers as soon as I figure out whether to get screw-on or bolt on.

I'm revisiting the Whisper design I did many years ago, but this time every thing will be dipole except the tweeter. I'll augment the front tweeter with a rear firing tweeter, possibly something as strange as a piezo horn.

I found a rather bizarre very shallow oval WG/horn. With a DE250 attached and using a 1.5kHz XO point it sounds like a dome tweeter.

To date I've only been playing with a single speaker. I'll post more about all this when I have a stereo pair up and running. That will probably be next week because I was kidnapped this week and have been forced to help a local fellow build a pair of 'Elsinores'

[JoshK]

I noticed the pictures of your shop in helping Tyson build his Elsinores. I even think we see a pic of you.

This is an interesting thread. After hearing Geddes' theater, I've had a fascination with HE pro-like speakers for HT. They just have the oomph that makes movies that much more impressive. Would like to experiment with a budget not-too-huge HE monitor for my HT. That will be after I finish up my current speaker project.

[augerpro]

usspeaker has this FaitalPro 12" woofer on sale for $125 until the end of the month. Looks to be a very nice woofer for the price.

[ThomasW]

I noticed the pictures of your shop in helping Tyson build his Elsinores. I even think we see a pic of you.

Don't tell anyone ......

This is an interesting thread. After hearing Geddes' theater, I've had a fascination with HE pro-like speakers for HT. They just have the oomph that makes movies that much more impressive.

I heard the Summas a few years ago at the RMAF. It's certainly an interesting system that plays at ear bleeding levels with a modest receiver.

That said.....

Most people are crippled by having modest to low Vd systems, this limits the output (power response). Going with compression drivers and larger woofers (or a ton of smaller woofers) provides a level of impact/clarity/low distortion not available from standard smallish tower or satellite/sub systems.

This is one reason I've always built REALLY BIG loudspeakers for main systems. As they say, "there's no replacement for displacement".... :B

[chasw98]

Dennis,

Does anyone know if Earl ever get around to testing it?

Craig

I have been reading quite a bit lately and have the Geddes test of the $10 JBL horn, but it is on my PC at home. Here is a link to a paper he wrote comparing a JBL horn w/Selenium driver to another horn.

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Horn%20VS%20waveguide.pdf

In the paper he shows why the JBL is not a waveguide and why it is not CD. Unfortunantely he does not mention the model of the JBL horn. I will try and find the link to the Geddes answer in the Econowave thread.

Chuck

[JoshK]

That said.....

Most people are crippled by having modest to low Vd systems, this limits the output (power response). Going with compression drivers and larger woofers (or a ton of smaller woofers) provides a level of impact/clarity/low distortion not available from standard smallish tower or satellite/sub systems.

This is one reason I've always built REALLY BIG loudspeakers for main systems. As they say, "there's no replacement for displacement".... :B

We're in agreement on this. I like HE for other reasons, but the Vd is a huge factor in above mentioned subjective performance. It is just that often they come together, but not always.

[NEO Dan]

usspeaker has this FaitalPro 12" woofer on sale for $125 until the end of the month. Looks to be a very nice woofer for the price.

WOW Brandon,
nice find!!! I was looking at 10" and 8" but those.....

blah blah blah....

I ordered a pair.... :B

and 2 each of the JBL #'s: 338800-001 & 364914-001

The bigger # 354267-001 is backordered. I'll check back on them till I get some to test with.

[augerpro]

I'll be very interested to see some plots of those woofers!!

The 354267-001 looks good, isn't it for a 1.5" CD though? What info do you have on the other two? What speaker series are they from?

I found the waveguides on the AE Compact and EVO series are worth looking at too. 336683-001 for the EVO. The AE is confusing, there seem to be three, but these parts numbers should be a good lead: 364914-001, PT-B99HF-1, PT-D126HF-1, PT-D95HF-1

[NEO Dan]

ARRGGGG, Are you sure???
let me look.....

http://cid-25586ae8216fdb6f.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Public/EWG/MRX512M%20EV.pdf

WERE GOOD, it's 1" screw on. The 2408H is the OEM version of the BMS 4540nd.

[augerpro]

Huh, that link still says 1.5" for the HF. You're sure it's the 4540Nd OEM?

Sucks that it's screw on, I already have some DE250's to use. I'll have to see if there any adaptors tha won't muck up the works.

[NEO Dan]

Methinks that's the VC size, this driver is built like the newer ring radiator tweeters.

2408H 37.5 mm (1.5 in) annular polymer diaphragm, neodymium compression driver is mounted to a 70-degree x 70-degree horn.

[NEO Dan]

Huh, that link still says 1.5" for the HF. You're sure it's the 4540Nd OEM?

Sucks that it's screw on, I already have some DE250's to use. I'll have to see if there any adaptors tha won't muck up the works.

Thanks for pointing this out...
Looks like someone at JBL made a change, for the better 8)

[NEO Dan]

Brandon,
what I heard about the JBL/BMS relationship was that JBL liked the driver so they bought the rights to manufacture it themselves. But when it came to the diaphragm they could not get it right so BMS still makes those for JBL.

But the NOW I see that JBL has flipped the motor on to the back of the driver...
Taking out the four screws lets you remove the thread mount swap out the diaphragm...



You could machine it to your liking to match a horn throat and or a custom exit angle & length. OR... you could leave it off and not be stuck with a 1" throat... LET THE HIGH PERFORMANCE BEGIN :B



...This is sort of the "Final Frontier" of DIY horns when you can tailor the driver exit all the way back to the origin like this. I think you'd need to taper the horn throat down to somewhere between 1/2" & 3/4", but a quick look inside the thread adapter piece will tell the story.


The JBL even though it's a thread mount is probably internally shallower than a large portion of the ferrite drivers with the diaphragm on the back


Here's a couple pics of the BMS for comparison:

[mikec]

So I wanna take a shot at these and I'm wondering if anyone else has found a woofer with a complementary polar response?

I'm building a variation of the e-wave using the Eminence Delta-10A. My twist is that it's an MTM dipole. The 10a woofers model well with the JBL PT-F95/D220ti.

[NEO Dan]

Is that going to be a 2 or 2.5 way?

[mikec]

MTM 2-way crossed somewhere between 1.5 and 2.2kHz. I'll know exactly where once I measure the drivers on my baffles.

[JoshK]

Just another option for comparison. B&C 10PS26 which Geddes uses in the Nathan is $140 here:

http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9_view_item.html?m9:item=B%26C-10PS26

[augerpro]

I like the prices at that dealer.

[augerpro]

Here is a cheapy horn at PE: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=270-304

Pretty much the same as the econo JBL but taller, close to 8" which should help keep the flaring low enough to just get away with mid-1khz crossover.

[NEO Dan]

I found out I was wrong on the price on this. It turns out that the price is for parts to recone the driver...


another 12" option from JBL @ $164, very Star Trek
MODEL 262H



FS 54
QTS .34
QMS 5.23
QES .36
VAS 66
EFF 2.7
PE 300
XMAX 16
RE 5.5
LE 1.5
SD 560
BI 17.3
MMS 58
FLUX 0.52

[NEO Dan]

Brandon,
I found the bolt on version $WG:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2138827&postcount=1301

[augerpro]

Cool. There were a couple waveguides from the AC Compact series that looked pretty good too. Well, assuming the price was reasonable. I had that one you just posted written down, I think it's from the EVO series. There seem to be a lot of similar designs by different manufacturers. I wonder how that rib on the side improves the sound radiation? I wish they had made a better attempt at making the mouth transition smoothly to the baffle. Like the PE one I just posted. And a lot of others. I think if there is a compromise it shouldn't be at the mouth. The foam can do nothing to help there.

The PAudio PH3220 is also pretty nice, pretty similar to the PE, but better material. $67 though.

I'm warming up to this PE horn though. This matched to the DE12 and FaitalPro might be pretty nice. And reasonably priced. What do you think Dan?

[NEO Dan]

I think the DE12 will not be happy running that low, it's literally a 1" inverted dome so the SD is small. Methinks the PE Horn will sound like a "horn". But cheap is cheap. You could always take a router to the 6" x 6" and remove the thread mount stub to try your conventional dome tweeter idea.

E-Wave electrical:
this should handle tons of power right up till you vapoo-rise the VC :E

[augerpro]

Well I think all these cheapies will probably sound like horns. But you were looking at those other cheapies and I don't see how this is any worse than any of them, especially the econo JBL horn. The MRX waveguide is worth a good look though I think. I'll have to call JBL an order a couple, you can't beat $10 to experiment.

From the testing I've seen of the DE10, and the fact that Geddes uses them below 2khz, I think the the DE12 will do mid-1khz, if only just barely. B&C specs 2.2khz @ 2nd order and they are pretty conservative, especially if this is for home use. Of course most sub-$100 CD's won't go low, particularly on the tiny horns people put on them, so you demand more from the woofer. That's probably a worse tradeoff most of the time since I've yet to see any cheap 12" pro woofers that will do 2khz clean. Assuming the factory plot is reasonably accurate, those FaitalPro's you bought are probably the only ones.

Already did and discarded the hifi dome on a waveguide idea. I think if you get a lucky match it can have some value, but the only waveguide is really the MCM, and it just doesn't have the pattern control I'm looking for. So I'm done with that idea until something better hits the market.

[NEO Dan]

My mistake on the 1" that is the DE10. The DE12 is a 1.4" so at least it's got a fighting chance. My guess is that the harper is pushing the lower limit to the edge, into YMMV territory.

[NEO Dan]

Brandon,
Have you tried Evernote? A friend from work turned me on to it, AWESOME to keep stuff organised. It's FREE unless you need to upload more than 40 megs per month.

There are youtube videos with lots of creative ways to use it, check it out...

[mikec]

Here is a revised model of my D220ti/Delta-10A MTM combo. (The HF curve is an actual measurement; the woofer is based on manufacturer data).

Looks like it should cross nicely at 2.6kHz with some mild overlap.

[Dennis H]

Brandon,
I found the bolt on version $WG:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...postcount=1301

Dan, the PT-F95HF is for a 1.5" driver.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=780&doctype=3

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17069

[AJINFLA]

I'm building a variation of the e-wave using the Eminence Delta-10A. My twist is that it's an MTM dipole. The 10a woofers model well with the JBL PT-F95/D220ti.

HE? Dipole?
Careful Mac. You're on the edge of the abyss.

cheers,

AJ

[mikec]

HE? Dipole?
Careful Mac. You're on the edge of the abyss.

cheers,

AJ

I can't help it AJ. I'm a former Orion addict who hasn't fully recovered.

[DS-21]

another 12" option from JBL @ $164, very Star Trek
MODEL 262H

Where'd you find that one listed for sale? Only thing I could find was the 262H-1, which has 2.5mm of xmax and seems to cost $190 shipped.

That one looks potentially fun for a bandpass sub.

[NEO Dan]

There are a few variants of the 262, hopefully it's not a typo...



I'll check on the pricing from JBL, I've got some other parts to inquire about.
262H (361082-001X)
262H-1 (363916-003X)

[JoshK]

Is it just me or does the 16mm xmax for the 262H seem suspect. Its is much larger than the others without any major other spec change. This doesn't seem likely. Wouldn't the Mms go up for the larger xmax and change other parameters too?

[NEO Dan]

It's hard to say either way because it's a dual coil dual gap motor. I hope the MRX512M sports more x-max than the H-1 though.

[augerpro]

Dan I PM'ed you regarding testing the FaitalPro woofer.

[NEO Dan]

I see. The drivers are comming via UPS ground to me in Ohio. I was not provided with a shipping confirmation or tracking info so my best guess is I'll have them sometime late in the week. I'm not keen on the DIY Klippel testing of this driver, there are others that I can donate for that. Why not see about hosting the Klippel that DIYMA makes so very little use of?

[augerpro]

I'm not using a Klippel tester, just trying to use the performance based method he outlined in the same paper as his parameter based method (which is the method used for his machine). Not sure if I'll be able to do it, and I'm looking at other ideas that I can substitute. The whole idea is my desire to get a better idea of what real xmax is for a driver.

I may end up just doing the normal sweeps and multitone testing that I've always done too. We'll see. I have to research it this week. I already have a commitment for an AE TD12M, which I've been wondering about forever. Hopefully I can get a couple other interesting drivers in the mix. Horn testing is also being thrown around, but I have to make sure that I have a measurement that is an accurate representation, including indication of HOM's.

[NEO Dan]

So the 12PR300's arrived today. Unscathed thanks to the great packing job from US Speaker.



And then there's the packaging itself, the woofer actually is in it's own shock absorber :T







And the build quality looks to be in line with the price.











This concludes to days dose of driver porn :B

[chasw98]

Nice!

[augerpro]

That's a nice looking woofer...how much were these with shipping? Looks pretty well built, with good spider venting on the bottom. Is there any polepeice vent? Might be little holes that are not obvious somewhere. Look through those spider vents and see if the cone or former has holes in it.

I think these are the darkhorse in the <$150 area. I'm betting these will be very good performers.

[NEO Dan]

Brandon,
when will you be ready to test & what's your turn around time looking like?

It appears the only venting is through the mesh on the bottom

[augerpro]

Well I'll have a TD12M here in about two weeks. I won't start testing before then since I need to hash out what kind of distortion testing I'll be doing. I'd also like to build a new test baffle and jig for impedance testing before then. Probably have the woofers on hand for one or two weekends. What are you thinking?

About the venting, when you look through it can you see where the former meets teh cone? Is there holes on either? May be just spider venting...

[augerpro]

Couldn't help myself, I bought the PE horn, some foam, and a pair of B&C DE12's. The PE horn is pretty good as far as rectangular horns go. Walls transition smoothly to the baffle at least horizontally. Throat seems ok and the CD exit matches fine. A bit of putty and it could be real smooth. I don't know what the entry angle is but it's not zero, it just flares out from there. This thing is a lot bigger than I thought it would be!









Looks like I'll be doing a cheap pro speaker after all. Now for the woofers...