Aerial Stryke subwoofer

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  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10934

    Aerial Stryke subwoofer

    Well those 2 guys at Klone-Audio have been up to their old tricks. This time it's a variation on a theme. Take the box design from Aerial Acoustics SW-12.......



    Then apply that to the Stryke HE-15 woofer and what do you have? The AS-15



    Full info is available HERE




    theAudioWorx
    Klone-Audio

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson
  • Bing Fung
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 6521

    #2
    Wow, that has got to be with out a doubt, my favorite custom sub!!!!

    Nice work Thomas!




    Bing
    Bing

    Comment

    • KennyG
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Sep 2000
      • 745

      #3
      Very nice...as always.
      How much would you say you have in this project...and how much would that 6" flaired port you didn't use have cost?
      I still haven't given up on the idea of building a good sub, but the addition of the projector & htpc kinda put a hold on the sub...however, I'm starting to see clear of that now!

      Comment

      • ThomasW
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 10934

        #4
        Thanks Bing

        Kenny

        The flares cost $49.95/pr.(we did use them). Other than that the cost breakdown is as follows

        Stryke HE-15 $400 delivered
        2-3 4'X8' sheets 3/4" MDF approx $60
        gallon of Titebond II $17
        port was leftover from the enclosure for the Whisper 6.5" mids, so I'd guess $5.00 max
        3/4" gasket felt is $120
        High pressure laminate approx $120

        So add in screws, contact cement, etc, and the bill would be around $1000.

        I forgot to mention in the website text, this sub weighs in at more than 300 lbs!!!

        FIY #1, the Aerial SW-12 costs $4500. It uses a 12" driver but includes an amp, XO, and EQ.

        The enclosure is going to be a test bed for a couple of different 15" drivers. BluePrintDrivers is having a 10% off sale on their 1503. This should be a very interesting lower cost alternative.

        FIY #2, this new generation of high excursion/high power handling subs don't play real low. This particular HE-15 has a measured Fs of 31Hz. The BluePrint 1503 is rated just under 27Hz we'll see what the actual measurement is when one arrives. So drivers like the Tempest or PE DVC-15 play lower, but don't have anywhere near the power handling/displacement.




        theAudioWorx
        Klone-Audio

        IB subwoofer FAQ page


        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15271

          #5
          The HE-15 is an interesting collection of necessary tradeoffs, not all of which might be your first choice for a "simple" subwoofer design.

          To handle the high displacement, the foam surround must be quite wide. To avoid "suck-back" of the surround during high power excursion travel, the foam surround must be fairly stiff.

          If the foam surround is fairly stiff, the suspension compliance results in a relatively high free air resonance; i.e., 31-32 Hz on the two samples we measured out of the box. One example was "broken in" by running with a 100W amplifier at 3/4" excursion at 30Hz for four days. This dropped the free air resonance to about 28.5 - 29 Hz.

          In the AS-15, the cabinet is tuned to about 18.5 Hz, to get strong output down to below 20Hz. Between the misalignment between box tuning and driver Fs, and the relatively high voice coil inductance and cone mass, it takes a moderate amount of EQ with a parametric equalizer to flatten the system. (the "hump" in the 50-70 Hz area relative to 100Hz or the low end takes 8-10 dB of cut- without this EQ, the woofer sounds more like a PA speaker for kick drum).

          With careful EQ, and this rather massive but stiff enclosure, the AS-15 (Aerial Stryke) is both musical and has fairly extended deep bass- but not as extended as the IB setup. However, you could lay one of these flat on it's side, turned sideways, like a coffee table, and in that context it will fit places that a an IB sub won't- like anywhere without a basement!

          The enclosure will seem like overkill to those brought up on "tube" subs- it was a lot of work, ThomasW did a killer job on it, but even though it feels like concrete when you wack your hand on it, push it hard on demanding music, and you can feel those walls vibrate. Not much, but more than I expected.

          This is the cleanest, deepest bass I've heard with an HE-15 to date. We are interested in trying some other drivers- it's an interesting question- if you could get within 3 dB of the same performance capability, at about half the driver cost, is that a worthwhile tradeoff, given the costs of the box materials and the labor in contruction? I find all speaker systems so much work, that the only time I'd be willing to try to cut corners on the drivers is if I was planning on building them to sell- and that's not how we work.

          Thomas did a great job on this- if there is interest in anyone duplicating it, I'm preparing detailed AutoCAD drawings, and can make PDF's, so let me know if you're interested.

          Regards,

          Jon




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          Comment

          • Patrick Sun
            Super Senior Member
            • Aug 2000
            • 1380

            #6
            300 pounds? That's like 3 cheerleaders! Nice job on the construction and performance numbers!




            PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
            PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              Oh BTW Kenny,

              Factor a parametric EQ (Behringer DSP100P at $145 is the cheapest I know of), and a fairly high powered amp into the budget......




              theAudioWorx
              Klone-Audio

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • Andrew Pratt
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 16507

                #8
                Very nice lok sub guys.




                Comment

                • KennyG
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Sep 2000
                  • 745

                  #9
                  The amp part is taken care of...two channels at 250 into 8 ohms, but I'm looking to drive a 4 ohm load with it, that's 400 watts. So I'm still thinking dual voice coils (which I see the stryke's have) wire parallel.
                  300lbs!!! now THAT is one excellent sub cabinet!

                  Comment

                  • James W. Johnson
                    Member
                    • Jun 2001
                    • 68

                    #10
                    Jon and Thomas, first off I must say that your work is beautiful! That sub looks fantastic both inside and out!

                    The enclosure is going to be a test bed for a couple of different 15" drivers. BluePrintDrivers is having a 10% off sale on their 1503. This should be a very interesting lower cost alternative.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>.
                    When do you suspect you will get a chance to play around with a BP driver? The 1803 is at the top of the list of drivers to choose from for my next subwoofer project and if you guys could get ahold of one before I do this would be extremely vaulable to me.
                    The quicker the better because I would like to get in on the special pricing.


                    If the foam surround is fairly stiff, the suspension compliance results in a relatively high free air resonance; i.e., 31-32 Hz on the two samples we measured out of the box. One example was "broken in" by running with a 100W amplifier at 3/4" excursion at 30Hz for four days. This dropped the free air resonance to about 28.5 - 29 Hz.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                    Wow, so what if you ran even more power to it for a longer period of time?
                    I would imagine with the way I abuse my Tempest drivers that their FS has dropped significantly.
                    pics

                    Comment

                    • James W. Johnson
                      Member
                      • Jun 2001
                      • 68

                      #11
                      Quick question Thomas and Jon , based on the preliminary specs of the 1503 and 1803 how do these drivers differ?

                      One thing I just noticed is that the Vas is very different between the two , 132.0 liters for the 1503 and 279.4 liters for the 1803.

                      I have big plans for these drivers if they are what the maker claims so your input is very valuable to me.

                      I would like to build what I think will be the largest stand alone(not built in) subwoofer on the planet using 6 of these drivers. My last big sub taught me alot about certain troubles one runs into when building such a large box so I am ready to do it again.
                      pics

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12
                        Hi James

                        Well I'm headed to Vancouver Island for some well earned vacation time so the BP-1503 won't be up and running until the first of October or so.

                        As far as your new sub, I certainly suggest building 6 individual boxes and stack them. A single box big enough for 6-18" would require access to a forklift!

                        If the DUMAX numbers are close to the website specs, the drivers are a steal at the sale price. But one must take the inherent limitations of high excursion designs into consideration when making the enclosure.

                        The main thing to consider with ANY of the high excursion drivers is the voice coil impedance vs frequency. Like the HE-15, I'm pretty sure the 1503 or 1803 driver will probably require EQ to cut a hump in the 70Hz range. Here's a copy of the 1503 impedance plot that was posted to the BluePrint site. It's no longer there...



                        Also remember that the Fs of the BluePrint drivers are higher than things like Tempests. So if you want good LOW bass(meaning subsonic frequencies), you might want to consider using a sealed box design. That way it's possible to use EQ to boost the LFE and not run into issues with the driver and port being out of phase.

                        The Vas difference isn't surprising given a 18" displaces about as much as 2-15"s




                        theAudioWorx
                        Klone-Audio

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • TerryC
                          Junior Member
                          • Jun 2001
                          • 6

                          #13
                          Great work Thomas! I've alwas been meaning to build a SW-12 Clone with my Mass. Looks like you beat me to it.

                          Quick question, final volume is what, 6.5ft3? I'm wondering if you plan to drop a Tempest in there? I know they won't be the sam alignments but it would be a nice comparison.

                          Also how much port noise is coming from that single 6" port with the amount of air the HE-15 can move im guessing it gets fairly loud near tuning. Any thoughts of compression limiting the lowest output levels?

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15271

                            #14
                            Very deep bass output at high levels is the tradeoff between the port and the PR system- with three 15" PR's, you can get more output in the 18-20 Hz region. Port limitations start to show up above 500 Watts input power, which translates to an upper limit of about 108 dB at 18-20 Hz free air at one meter- that's into a 4 pi space.
                            In an actual room, at the listening position, with room gain from wall boundaries adding to the output, but with listener distance dropping output, you still wind up with about 110 dB at that power level from 18 Hz on up. Max SPL at listening position is about 115 dB at 18 Hz and up. That's loud. If you regularly listen to music at this level and higher, you imperil your long term hearing- actually, you're about 10-15 dB past the point at which you imperil your hearing. If you want 118 dB, add a second sub. Each 3 dB costs you dearly, folks.

                            Best regards,

                            Jon




                            Earth First!
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                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
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                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • ThomasW
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 10934

                              #15
                              Hi Terry

                              As for the volume of the box, the gross internal volume is just under 6.8 cu ft. Deduct for the the port, driver, internal stiffening braces, the gasket felt, and the volume drops down to around 5.5 cu ft. We used a 160L LspCAD Pro model to calculate the box, then crossed our fingers. The program showed a resonant frequency of of 18.7Hz. The CLIO testing showed that is was actually 18.56Hz. Port is 5.75"ID and 28.5" long measured flare to flare.

                              FIY, the internal depth of the box was calculated so as to provide 6" of clearance between the end of the port and the rear wall of the enclosure.

                              During CLIO generated sine sweeps that shook the whole house there was no obvious port noise/chuffing.

                              Also I'm not concerned about port compression because I don't need anything above 115db




                              theAudioWorx
                              Klone-Audio

                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                              Comment

                              • TerryC
                                Junior Member
                                • Jun 2001
                                • 6

                                #16
                                So you are getting 115db plus at your listening seat with just this one sub from say 20hz on up thats great! Is there any sort of distortion limit on this? Is it 10% measured or are you using audible limits?

                                Also is there any plans to try the Tempest? Since almost all of us own one and know its output it would be a great comparison for all of us just to see what that extra $250 buys in the same alignment. For instance will you get 3db to 6db better with the Stryke or even more, better bottom end with the Tempest from the lower fs and so on. What do you think??????

                                Comment

                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10934

                                  #17
                                  Terry

                                  No you misunderstood. I haven't tried for 115db, there are too many windows in the listening room. You ask about port compression and above 115db is where port compression would set in with the AS-15

                                  I think 10% distortion figures are nuts and that level of distortion is audible. My feelings are that distortion everywhere in the audio chain should be kept at a mininium. I realize that's not the popular thinking, but that's how Jon and I do things.

                                  I don't have a Tempest at the house so I can't drop one in. There wouldn't be any better bottom end in the AS-15 box due to the port tuning (18.56Hz). But it would be an interesting comparison. Jon's got 4 Tempests out in San Jose. I imagine he'll try one in his box when it's completed. I'll be trying one of the BluePrint 1503's for a comparison with the HE-15.

                                  In the fall I'm going to build an isobaric tube sub as a platform to test different drivers in that configuration. I'll start with 2 Tempests. I'm curious as to how good a sound I can get in a sealed tube with EQ. This same tube will also be a test bed for an isobaric setup with 2-1503's.




                                  theAudioWorx
                                  Klone-Audio

                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15271

                                    #18
                                    Hello Terry,

                                    The TEMPEST may be flatter without EQ, because it's Fs is better mated to the box alignment. However, the XMax and the power handling aren't in the same category. LSPCAD still predicts somethings of a "hump", but peaking between 100 and 150, instead of between 45 and 75, as for the Stryke measurements. With correct room placement, it may be very flat in room, and in fact the room placement I have modeled it with is within a 2 dB window from 20 Hz to 115 Hz at the listening posistion without EQ.

                                    But, simulations are just simulations; the proof is in the measurements.

                                    So, maximum output will be lower. It may well be that for a TEMPEST, one of the Sonotube cabinets, which is relatively easy to build and lighter, is a more appropriate choice, because the driver won't stress the box quite as much. And of course, if you've got lots of space, (say for two cabinets), and plenty of time on your hands for building the box's, then using two TEMPESTS would be a reasonable cost saving way to get to the SPL.

                                    I haven't personally built any Sonotube subs, so I can't comment on the bass quality aspect of the AS-15 enclosure vs. the typical Sonotube sub with Tempest. ThomasW has built some TEMPEST Sonotube subs with others, so he may have more feedback. When he said that this was the best bass quality he'd heard from a "box" sub (as opposed to IB), I think he was probably including the Sonotube ones, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

                                    Regards,

                                    Jon




                                    Earth First!
                                    _______________________________
                                    We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                    the AudioWorx
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                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • TerryC
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Jun 2001
                                      • 6

                                      #19
                                      Thanks guys for the responses.

                                      What I was getting at is it would be nice to see the Tempest tested in the exact same box to see just how much less output would be achieved. Like you mentioned Sims aren't really the greatest for comparing drivers only a general idea.

                                      For instance, see how both subs perform in frequency response and see how both stand up to the listening test and see how off they are in SPL sweeps (looking for the DD spec of 115dB).

                                      I'm wondering just how much more the Stryke offers not simmed? Would you guys be willing to do a just a couple max SPL tests say at 20hz and maybe one at 35HZ befor EQ on both along with your other measurements? It would be very intersting to see how a $140 compares to a $400 one.

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15271

                                        #20
                                        Hi Terry,

                                        Maximum output does not depend on the EQ. EQ is necessary with some drivers to flatten or extend the response because of driver parameters, such as suspension compliance, voice coil inductance, etc.

                                        Comparing the Tempest and the HE-15, the issue regarding maximum output always comes down to xmax. Where the box comes in is how it's tuned, and how it reduce the driver excursion for a given output in the range that the port or PR's work. The tradeoff for an enclosure tuned to extend bass below 20 Hz is that at about 2/3 an octave above the port tuning, the driver excusion is way up because the port output is down.

                                        So, comparing the Stryke and the Tempest it comes down to displacement and power handling- and that's not a battle the Tempest can win or draw, with about 1/2 the xmax of the Stryke, and half the power handling. This is the kind of area where sims DO tell you a lot about what happens in the real world.

                                        The advantage to the Styke is that you can get more output from a single driver, so maximum SPL from a single cabinet is higher, and it's not working as hard overall.

                                        The advantage I see to the Tempest is cost, and the possiblility of having a good sounding setup at the listener position without the added expense of LF EQ.

                                        I'm sure the Tempest will sound good in the AS-15 box, but the box may be "overkill" for the driver- a sonotube sub may work fine for the Tempest. I haven't tested or heard a Sonotube sub for the Tempest myself, so I'm not in a position to comment. The AS-15 enclosure was designed and built to take the "beating" an HE-15 will dish out at high displacements. It will work quite well with the Tempest, it's just more work than a typical Sonotube sub. Would I be willing to go out on a limb and predict that the AS-15 box might be the best enclosure you can build for optimizing the Tempest? If optimizing means maximising output and extension, while minimizing coloration, I'd be willing to don my flame suit and say yes.

                                        Regards,

                                        Jon




                                        Earth First!
                                        _______________________________
                                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                        the AudioWorx
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                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • TerryC
                                          Junior Member
                                          • Jun 2001
                                          • 6

                                          #21
                                          Hi Jon,

                                          Thanks for the refresher but I pretty much understand the physics behind it all.

                                          All I'm wondering is if you will drop the Tempest in and see how it compares?

                                          Comment

                                          • ThomasW
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 10934

                                            #22
                                            Terry

                                            Sure in time we'll drop a Tempest in and check out it's performance.




                                            theAudioWorx
                                            Klone-Audio

                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                            Comment

                                            • Lex
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Apr 2001
                                              • 27461

                                              #23
                                              Great job guys. Love the looks of the Aerial Klone.

                                              As someone that built dual Shiva cabinets. Let me comment that the box, built to your specs at 300 pounds certainly may be overkill, but a box design and an Adire driver is certainly no mis-match. My Velex subwoofers deliver the goods, IMO. Sure, I could have done a few things different, maybe better, but overall, their performance is nothing short of astounding. My plans are still on file over at HTT if anyone cares to view it, or you can get to it by going to my website and clicking on the woofs in the left frame.



                                              Lex
                                              Doug
                                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                              Comment

                                              • Jack Gilvey
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Aug 2001
                                                • 510

                                                #24
                                                So, have you gents gotten to play with any alternate drivers in this magnificent box yet?

                                                Comment

                                                • ThomasW
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 10934

                                                  #25
                                                  Hi Jack

                                                  There are new things in the pipeline, but we're not ready for primetime info at this time. I'll start a new thread at the appropriate time

                                                  Regards
                                                  Thomas




                                                  theAudioWorx
                                                  Klone-Audio

                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Jack Gilvey
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2001
                                                    • 510

                                                    #26
                                                    Sounds ominous. Always look forward to your observations, thanks.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15271

                                                      #27
                                                      Ominously heavy.

                                                      -Jon




                                                      Earth First!
                                                      _______________________________
                                                      We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Andrew Pratt
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 16507

                                                        #28
                                                        So have you guys checked out this sub with a tempest and or Blueprint driver yet?




                                                        Comment

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