recommended speaker/sub design programs?

[lbstyling]

hello,
im looking to design some basic speakers and subs soon and i need a good- free or very cheap program to play with to do this- can anyone reccommend one? leap is just too expensive!!

[b_force]

winisd works very well
(download the 0.5 pro alpha version, not the new version)

http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisdpro/winisdalpha.exe

[brianpowers27]

Jeff Bagby's PCD works well but it assumes that you already know how to design speakers.

[savage25xtreme]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26544

in the FAQ/Reference section :T

[Smokinghot]

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html

Great walkthrough with links to all suggested SW

[ThomasW]

All the software I'm aware of assumes the user already knows how to design speakers.

Roman's website is a good starting point. So is buying Speakerbuilding 201 by Ray Alden (not the usually recommended Loudspeaker Design Cookbook)

Start off by building a sub. They're 10 times easier than anything with a crossover and higher frequency drivers.

[Dave Bullet]

I'll also add... if you are the kind of person who gets frustrated easily and gives up, then building a proven design (after your sub) would be a better approach.

If however you are a person that likes the difficult, doesn't get bored easily, will always try and find a solution to a problem and don't mind learning heaps with frustration along the way (ie. someone in IT like me) - then speaker building will be a great passtime.

[JonMarsh]

If however you are a person that likes the difficult, doesn't get bored easily, will always try and find a solution to a problem and don't mind learning heaps with frustration along the way .

Isn't that the truth? And it never ends....

[lbstyling]

theres a few to choose from there - so i think a little background is needed- i have build many car installations inc many subs a and speaker installs,
i have also built a troels gravesen designed tjl3w speaker. i own a well read copy of the ldc aswell, ive been playing with speakers ect for 3 years now but havent realy designed my own - im a see things through at any cost kind of guy.-(thats not always a good thing.) :T

i would like to start with a program that does all i would ever need rather than learn something basic and be limited by it later on.

what do you think?
i was kind of hoping you all used the same one!

idealy i could feed it my own measurements and download acurate responce graphs to work on as well- if thats not asking too much!!

[ThomasW]

Download Speaker Workshop, Arta and Jeff Bagby's tools. They're all free so you can play with them to see which you like.

[b_force]

If you can read German (I can :P) try Boxsim.

Very great program that also calculates diffraction and so on.
Also very precise compared with the real world.

[lbstyling]

ive spent some time with some of the recomended software and ive gone with winisd pro alpha and speaker workshop, they seem to both be quite user friendly, tho speaker workshop seems more advanced. looks like ill need to do lots of diy stuff to calibrate a mic to my computer sound card-ive not looked into this too much yet- lots to learn.

i would like to make a diy cinema sub with the 18" jbl 2245 driver (used in imax theatres) as my first project- what you think? ok first project?

[lbstyling]

ps thankyou for all the replys- i am surprised with all the diversity of software ppl use to do this!

[ThomasW]

The 2245 is a subwoofer in the prosound world. In the home audio/HT world it would be considered a woofer. It would be a good choice if you need high output, are willing to live with a large box, are limited to lowish power amps and aren't interested in any of the infrasonic content now routinely recorded on movie soundtracks.

IMO a better choice for a home audio 18" would be the Maelstrom-X from Exodus audio

[lbstyling]

nice sub.
im looking for a ultra fast sub with the biggest dynamics i can get- it would also be running the bottom octave for stereo use aswell.
qts looks a little high for my targets i would like arround half that figure.

[ThomasW]

nice sub.
im looking for a ultra fast sub with the biggest dynamics i can get-.

Ultra fast drivers are called tweeters. There's no such thing as a 'fast' subwoofer, the term itself is an oxymoron.

'Big dynamics' are much more a function of what's on the recording.

Good luck with your project....

[lbstyling]

i have a paradigm studio 15 at the moment - it goes down to 16hz and have fitted many car systems with large subs -jl w7's and alike and there all slow and unrealistic imo. i fitted a system into a citroen saxo a couple of years ago and experienced 20hz @ a varified 150db- its just pressure- no real tone or sound, so im willing to sacrifice a flat reponce below 30hz for my goals.

thomas- that sub you linked to looks underhung- anyone know?
ive also looked at lambda - they seem to do some nice drivers.

[ThomasW]

No it's not underhung.

Comparing in-car sub performance to in-home subs is an apples vs oranges comparison.

JL makes some exceptionally good drivers.

experienced 20hz @ a varified 150db- its just pressure- no real tone or sound

Hence the term infra-sonic. You'll find more and more infra-sonic content is being recorded on CD/DVD.

If all you're interested in is 30Hz sure buy the JBL. Be sure to use a hi-pass filter to protect the driver otherwise infra-sonic content will destroy it.

When your friends say the soundtrack of action adventure films played on your system sure is loud but it doesn't 'feel' realistic? You know what to say....

[lbstyling]

is it practical to cross over to a infrasub from the jbl mentioned earlyer at 30hz? if i remember right-it would have to be active xo due to a massive inductor if passive??

[ThomasW]

Yes it would need to be an active crossover

Thing is one doesn't get the 'best' sound quality running drivers in very narrow passband, be they MBMs or lower passband subs. So whether or not the JBL makes sense depends on how low the mains go.

In most instances there are options that allow a high quality sub to play up to 80Hz, provided placement doesn't dictate a lower a XO point.

What you do regarding the JBL should be based on an analysis of the performance characteristics of the entire system.

[Dave Bullet]

i have a paradigm studio 15 at the moment - it goes down to 16hz and have fitted many car systems with large subs -jl w7's and alike and there all slow and unrealistic imo.

At those frequencies, the car is still resonating long after the note has finished (even assuming a critically damped subwoofer enclosure which usually isn't the case because size is an issue in car audio - of enclosures that is).

[lbstyling]

At those frequencies, the car is still resonating long after the note has finished (even assuming a critically damped subwoofer enclosure which usually isn't the case because size is an issue in car audio - of enclosures that is).

your not wrong there- in my experience large car installs ruin the vehicles fixtures and fittings .within a couple of weeks they rattle quite badly regarless of bracing/ foam filling and damping.

the main speakers go down to 40hz flat- but i need a new centre as the one i have at the moment isnt up 2 much.

it will likely be replaced by a statement centre.

i cross over at 100hz at the moment.
if it was impractical to cross over to a lower sub for say below 40hz i would prefer to just go with the jbl and have no infrasonic output.
it works rather well for imax.

[lbstyling]

on the subject of 'fast' subwoofers i was under the impression it was proved long ago that the higher the inductance of a coil- the more stored energy it kept- slowing transient attack- the qts of a driver also seams related to the dryness of the sound of a driver- lower being dryer/faster.

a given woofer with a qts of say 0.6 and eff of 86 db/1w will need 32w to get to 101db and at that vol will have vastly increased qts something like 3.0

whereas a high efficiency driver with a large cone that has limited xmax-can have a much smaller coil- giving lower inductance, a very low qts is possible of say 0.16 and stays at this figure assuming in this case it is 101db eff.

i could be totally wrong but thats what ive thought to be the truth.

[JonMarsh]

Generalizations are a dime a dozen, but no generalization is worth a tinker's dam, including this one! :W


Fast bass? Go look at a "subwoofer" driver like the NS12-513-4A. 10 mm Xmax, underhung gap with cooper galore, reasonable Qts, so the alignment is under your control, Le is very low (inductance only rises to 10 ohms at 1400 Hz, and the first cone breakup mode is at 2.2 kHz.

NONETHELESS, if it's designed into an LF alignment for which the system Q is under damped, it will boom.

Bass drivers with high inductance are a problem because of inductivity modulation as well as restriction in rate of rise in the VC current, which does act like a built in crossover. But there's nothing that says a long throw subwoofer has to be built like "the old days", just look at what you can get in the low cost Reference Series from Dayton, including 10's, 12's, and 15's.

You can take any true "fast" sub driver with low inductance VC and extended response, and screw up the bass alignment; the low frequency corner Qts is dependent on the T/S parameters and cabinet design.

By the way, the 15" Paradigm servo subs are demonstrably quite linear, and quite fast, with very short settling time. But if you put them in a car body, and if you give them some peaking EQ on a line level, then all bets are off what the results will sound like. Equalizers can screw up the transient response royally, unless they're of the right kind.

OK, glad I got that off my chest. Now the real moderator here can send me on a time out. :W

[lbstyling]

i agree i shouldnt just fixate on the perameters ive associated with transient and dynamic ability-theres alot more to making it work as a whole and one mistake or poor choice could take any potential gains away-
but i cant help that when listening to a system- the dynamics and transient responce are what i value most! the best speakers ive ever owned were the jbl l100 centurys not my £1500 troels gravesen (3way hiquiphon/seas excel) tis a personal thing and maby i have poor taste, but i find the excel units boreing, slow and a sleep inducing experience generaly. ive discussed this before and i got the responce that maby i should reinforce the low end- thats not whats wrong imo.

[Dave Bullet]

I personally find the speakers that put me to sleep either are lacking in treble, or are quality with very low distortion. I like clear boring speakers I can sleep to. That alone tells me low distortion.

For example, my first DIY foray sounds a bit cleaner than a pair of KEFs, but the KEFs are far more pleasant to listen to. Especially on bright / "in your face" recordings. The KEFs measure pretty flat and distortion levels are not bad either (with my limited distortion measurement ability). Not bad for a commercial speaker (ie. that is either built to a price, or built to a profit :-)

I think re-inforcing the low end of the troels 3way and starting with a subwoofer build as your entry into DIY would be the best way to go.

What sort of music or movies do you listen to?

[lbstyling]

i wouldnt mind reinforcing the tjl3w's as a project either-assuming the cost wasnt too extreme- ive always thought the solution for those speakers would be to go wmtmw and maby swap the hiquiphon out for a fountek neo 3 -as this is a option that troels offers himself.
i think thats past me for the moment-but it would be fun one day!

hmm-film ...i LOVE tenatious d and the pick of destiny-its the best film for audio ive come across-just turn it up as loud as you can!!close second of the dark knight.

music- kind of everything- ive got 250gig of lossless flac ripped off my cds using eac- shallow as it is i tend to like what sounds good on the system, on the current setup thats kate melua-spine tingleing. but if i had to be honest regardless of system its got to be red hot chilli's - just gets you up and jumping on a lively fast tight system it times so energetically.

[ThomasW]

the best speakers ive ever owned were the jbl l100 centurys

Why hassle learning to design speakers? Go to your local pro-sound shop and buy the top module for a set of PA stacks. I'd recommend the Yorkville U-15"s but those are probably pretty $pendy if even available in the UK